Is there any hope for the adaptation of Stannis in Season 4? (TV and Book Spoilers)

[Joyful Union]

TV show really dropped the ball on Stannis.

TV-only viewers have absolutely no reason to like Stannis. If they don't hate him, they're very indifferent. Example from twop

You say that, but I have seen quite a few fans of Stannis among the Unsullied, even if not nearly as many as among the bookreaders. Most of these people like him because of Blackwater. If in Season 4, he's given a few funny lines, and if the Stan!Stan!Stan! moment pays of, I imagine his popularity will rocket, despite his season 3 material.

Take these for example, from the Chud.com unsullied:

"Stannis is too much man for me to handle."

"Stannis, Melisandre and Davos/ Jon Snow and Sam. He's heading for the Wall, and I for one can't wait to see Stannis whip this undisciplined group of rapists into shape!"

"I've got a boy coming in September and wanted Stannis, but the mother is having none of it"

You never know what kind of character is going to appeal to people. Someone on the site even made a list of reasons why he is awesome on that site, though I can't find it now.

[jons nissa]

TV show really dropped the ball on Stannis.

TV-only viewers have absolutely no reason to like Stannis. If they don't hate him, they're very indifferent. Example from twop

but this is all true! robert was a horrible king and stannis at this point is not an underdog like jon. he is just the true born, nobly raised brother of the last king and is trying to win the throne. he has no special power of his own, but fortunately (and unfortunately) he does have a witch. not sure you can be angry with an unsullied for not being impressed since stannis grows impressive when he's at the wall, even for book readers.

[Fragon]

but this is all true! robert was a horrible king and stannis at this point is not an underdog like jon. he is just the true born, nobly raised brother of the last king and is trying to win the throne. he has no special power of his own, but fortunately (and unfortunately) he does have a witch. not sure you can be angry with an unsullied for not being impressed since stannis grows impressive when he's at the wall, even for book readers.

No it is not, the unsullied believe he has no personality (see the quoted opinion). I'm sure no one who has read the books can say that Stannis has no personality. This is the consequence of the show making him spineless face to Melisandre.

In the books, I agree that Stannis evolves (which is great), but his personality is intact and compelling, since the beginning of the story, and his personality/attitude/humour/mood made him a compelling character a long time before the wall. In the show they removed his scepticism towards Melisandre, which makes him look a like a fool and a tool in her hands, whereas in the books, each party is thinking they're using the other one (kind of) and the relationship is a lot more complex. I know that bookStannis' personality still makes appearances in the show, but it is hammered down by his inconsistent attitudes introduced by show-only scenes.

[Indigocell]

I became a Stannis fan as I read the books. For me the most significant turning point was his decision to respond to the Night's Watch and aid them in their time of need. I like him specifically because he was a flawed character that occasionally got things right.

I can get behind most changes to characters. For instance, they have gone out of their way to make characters like Theon, Cersei, and even Tywin more likeable and human.

In contrast however, it seems to me they have gone out of their way to make Stannis seem even more unlikeable. I just wish they had given him the lines quoted in this thread, with regards to the decision to spare Davos and aid the Night's Watch. I feel like that was an important moment that was downplayed to the detriment of the character and story.

[E-Ro]

Great thread(i just read the op, will get to the rest tomorrow) but I agree 100% and I think its a shame what they have done with our king.

[Nymeria...gloves..]

Great thread(i just read the op, will get to the rest tomorrow) but I agree 100% and I think its a shame what they have done with our king.

glad you made it E-Ro..

"The world is bigger than JUST the game of thrones" is the theme that i feel that D&D are teasing at so they can unleash it next season. This is where the turn-around of Stannis will come into play. The unsullied just lost the Starks (which is devastating enough for them) so patients, patients.

Thats all that im trying to get across here.

[Harry Lime]

Bryan Cogman gives a very thoughtful rebuttal to a fan's criticisms in this interview: http://winteriscomin...ore/#more-28887. I for one agree with him.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I don't find his answers particularly satisfactory because I don't think it addresses any of the real complaints. His answers basically boil down to a defensive "I have a different understanding of the character than you", which of course, everyone already knew.

[Huscarl]

To be fair, Stannis didn't become worthy of respect until he showed up at the Wall and rescued the Night's Watch (and Jon) in the nick of time. Hopefully, we'll see Kit and Dillane have that discussion on top of the Wall about "saving the kingdom to win the throne". Also, on the journey to Eastwatch, the show can have Stannis talk with Davos and have him admit that his Hand was right and that he should've been doing his duty as king, first and foremost.

[Thelastactionhero]

Bryan Cogman gives a very thoughtful rebuttal to a fan's criticisms in this interview: http://winteriscomin...ore/#more-28887. I for one agree with him.

I actually mentioned Bryan Cogman's comments in the original post. They're part of what bothers me so much about the adaptation. Even those who hate Stannis generally agree that there are significant deviations from the character we experience in the source material, so why are all these valid textual examples discarded on the basis that "Stan Stans" simply have a super-imposed idealized image of him? Why doesn't Stannis himself make the decision to spare Davos and save the Wall? Why is all agency ursurped and the decision deferred to Melisandre's influence? When you and Bryan answer these important questions, I'll take his thoughts on the matter with more severity.

[Dragonstoned]

I didn't find Brian Cogman's rebuttal in that WiC article very thoughtful.

I think show Stannis’ faith in the Lord of Light is an evolving thing – not black or white.

Yeah well there is no evidence in the books for Stannis's faith in the LoL. Recognising his existence is not faith, otherwise anyone who's ever seen Melisandre survive poisoning, a shadowbaby, Mel setting fire to an eagle etc. should be considered a follower of the R'hllor too. There is however evidence that he is simply making use of the god's power, e.g. "The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk."

I frankly don’t think that makes the character “suffer” in comparison to the book version but gives Stephen Dillane an interesting arc to play.

Please please can we just have an accurate portrayal of a character rather than one to make playing that character 'interesting' for the actor or some other such bollocks.

Obsessed — well, there are plenty of clues in the books that Melisandre has an unnatural hold on him, particularly after the events of the Blackwater.

Before Blackwater there are no clues. After Blackwater the only clues are what Sallador Saan says to Davos in his second chapter of ASoS:

"And your king, well, you will be finding him changed, I am fearing. Since the battle, he sees no one, but broods in his Stone Drum."

"No one but Melisandre?"

“The guards keep all others away, even his queen and his little daughter. Servants bring meals that no one eats. Queer talking I have heard, of hungry fires within the mountain, and how Stannis and the red woman go down together to watch the flames. There are shafts, they say, and secret stairs down into the mountain’s heart, into hot places where only she may walk unburned."

Hardly plenty, and 'unnatural hold' is kind of overstating it - Melisandre is his confidant and one of his two main advisors, he doesn't want to see anyone else, they are looking into fires as per s02e10, she is in the mountain's heart *probably* trying to convince him about waking dragons out of stone by sacrificing Edric. His remaining main advisor he thinks is dead and doesn't realise till later is locked in his dungeon.

In any case, if you think book Stannis ain’t sleeping with Melisandre… well, you’re wrong!

Think in all these forums I've seen a total of one person say that Stannis wasn't banging Mel. Straw to the man.

The Stannis of the books does plenty of unsavory things that might make one question Davos’ loyalty…

... like what?

Davos sees the good in Stannis, owes him a huge debt, believes he’s being pulled down a dangerous path by Melisandre, and is working hard to help him. That seems consistent with the book version, even if some details are different.

The overall picture is consistent, but it's nearly all the details rather than some which are different. They've changed the amount of good in Stannis to the extent where it's difficult to see what good he actually has anymore.

He ain’t Ned Stark.

Yeah no shit. Another nice strawman, Brian.

And you have to watch characters stumble if you want their triumphs to have any weight.

Sounds like the people who said they were bringing Stannis down as much as possible right now in order to accentuate 'Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!' were right.

tl;dr BC is a great scriptwriter but he doesn't get Stannis. It's not enough to bring up a few tiny minority hardcore Stanstan ideas and dismiss all the moderate interpretations of him along with them. Why not include some of his lines to Davos which shed light on the positive sides of his character? Unless they don't consider these lines valid because they think everything that Stannis says about duty and justice, Renly etc. is a lie, and the only way anyone reading the books can see Stannis as a villain (which BC etc. blatantly do still) is by disbelieving everything he says. I have faith he/whoever can get his storyline right in s4, because getting it wrong is tricky, but from s5 onwards his portrayal will probably revert to type, him trying to dry-hump Mel as he leaves her at the Wall and an original scene where he tells the Liddles and Wulls how much he misses her or something, if they haven't been cut, which is a shame as I would really like to see what happened when Stannis went to the mountain clans.

edit: I wish the asker had asked some different questions too e.g. Thelastactionhero's above Why doesn't Stannis himself make the decision to spare Davos and save the Wall? Why is all agency ursurped and the decision deferred to Melisandre's influence especially when this runs directly against the evidence in the books “If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.”

[Fragon]

...

I agree completely, he "answered" only the questions that are easy to dismiss. He didn't say anything about the two big problems on showStannis:

1. His lack of character. His most important monologues or discussions with Davos are cut. His take on religions are missing, how only men are responsible for justice, his take on lords' hypocrisies are missing, his affection to his duty are missing and his human nature with Proudwing are missing. His take on Claw Isle spoke a lot about him. Well I know that a few of these are briefly mentioned , but even in the books we don't get a lot scenes like those, how do they expect to get him understood in the show without these? I've still got a naive hope that we might get those if they thought Stannis needed some kind of redemption for S4( :bs:).

2. This lack of character and increased characterisation given to Mel made him Mel's bitch on the show. I could've gotten the S3E3 scene, it could be attributed to his depression, even though he'd never do something close to that in front of his men. I have had no problem with him sending Davos to dungeon on S3E1, it's totally okay, the guy bared steel in front of him. I'd rather took the books version of it where we got "So the sea has returned me my knight of the fish and onions.", but it was okay. But S3E10 turned him to a spineless dude whipped by Mel at every minute. This is unfortunately the view that a lot of Unsullied took on Stannis and it is just sad to see an interesting character getting discarded like this.

But anyway, they'll do whatever weird things they have in mind, and we'll still enjoy it, I mean we've got some really strange scenes this year like Gendry's leeching or Theon's castration that the show is starting to lose its grip on the realistic feel of this world, and poorly fleshed out characters with actions that make little sense does not help.

[maria underfoot]

I fully agree with the OP. And Stannis doesn't only lack the character, but he also lacks the prestige he had in the books. Whether you liked him or not, you couldn't overlook him. His sense of justice, his obstinacy, his determination, it all made him an active participant in the game of thrones, even if Davos had 6 or 7 chapters in ASOS, as someone said. In the show, however, he is displayed as mean and selfish and all that, but he's also portrayed as almost a fool, who can't make decisions for himself and who has no chance of winning whatsoever. No Unsullied expects him to win, since he is almost a background character, and nobody wants him to win.

That said, after the Jaime kinslaying scene, there was a lot of apprehension concerning his redemption arc. But the redemption happened, the cousin is largely forgotten and Jaime has become a fan favorite even for non-readers.

So yeah, I think there is still hope, if they actually pay some attention to him

[drayrock]

Stannis is so unbelievably overrated on these forums. He's a kind of cool character because he is such contradiction and hypocrit, but by no means did I imagine him to last this long when I first started reading and I could really care less if he makes it through the next book.

[Vympel]

I know a lot of people are waiting for the big moment at the closing of Season 4 with Stannis, but I can't help but wonder if they don't even have it. They might try to play it like some sort of tragedy that the Wildlings are routed right before Jon comes to some sort of understanding with Mance, or something utterly daft like that.

[PatrickStormborn]

Yes, book!Stannis is sleeping with Melisandre. That's clear - and it's not just because he wants to make shadowbabies.

But would book!Stannis start grinding against Melisandre in front of his soldiers, sniff her face and say "I want you"?! Maybe he would... But luckily it's not something GRRM ever showed us, and I think the show should have kept it the same way.

Looking back on season 2, I think the portrayal of Stannis would have been stronger if they only ever showed him through Davos or Cressen until he visited Selyse or Shireen (although I still don't like the way the two characters have been locked away in a tower... but that's another problem entirely).

[The Great Walrus]

I personally think if they really tried, D&D could undo most of the damage they've done to Stannis. And people tend to forget that it's mostly the writing that has harmed Stannis' character, and i personally believe that Stephen Dillane is a very good fit for Stannis.

[Kolantero]

I completely agree with the OP, I don't mind a few changes but the portrayal of Stannis is ridiculous in the show and it is getting much more vexing when you consider that (almost?) every other character is portrayed as a better (or at least at the same level of "goodness") person compared to the books... except Stannis.

I saw this coming from season 2, where they put that ridiculously "evil" music every time they showed him during the Blackwater Bay battle. I mean really, you have the Lannisters on one side including Joffrey, Cercei and Jaime, Tywin (even though not present) and the bad guy is Stannis?

I really doubt that the show creators are going to fix that, they are setting him up to be a villain. Not 100% "black" but definitely a villain

[Jslay427]

Stannis is so unbelievably overrated on these forums. He's a kind of cool character because he is such contradiction and hypocrit, but by no means did I imagine him to last this long when I first started reading and I could really care less if he makes it through the next book.

Blasphemy. And your avatar was pretty close to declaring for Stannis in book 1.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

They're not setting him up to be a villain because he isn't a villain. Even those that could be considered villains on the show are actually quite likable. Stannis will be viewed considerably differently once he saves the NW and then wages war against the Boltons and Freys.

So yes, there is certainly hope. My only wish is that they start to characterize Stannis as someone with his own set of ethics and motivations independent of The Lord of Light religion. That can be quite easily accomplished when we start to get to know him at Castle Black and watch he and Jon's awkward relationship develop.

The little nod he gives Jon after fetch me a block, silencing the people who laugh at Jon's counsel so that he can hear his advice, mentioning duty versus rights, a couple funny lines straight from the text, some background about living in Robert's shadow and perhaps even the tale of Proudwing...These are all really easy things that will bring him to closer to his book characterization.