Did Tywin have Elia murdered (and raped)?

[Olligarchy]

I've always assumed that Tywin ordered the deaths of the babes, but failed to mention that them other should be spared... which when accounting for the tools he decided to use for the mission was a foregone conclusion.

[Petyr Patter]

I've gone back and forth on this.

Sure, his explanation to Tyrion seems to fit his character. Killing the Targaryen children was a way to provide a stable realm and ingratiate himself to the new king. Cold, cruel, but pragmatic.

HOWEVER, I don't think it was an accident that Martin showed Tywin at his final moment to be literally full of shit.

Why to Tywin hire the Bloody Murmurs as his mercenary support? Because of their great fighting reputation? No, because they were the cruelest and nastiest, and he unleashed them upon the Riverlands to "forage." Did they rape, murder, and commit other warcrimes? Yes. Did Tywin have to order those things to happen? No, he picked his tools, and knew what he had picked.

Still, we are unlikely to ever get direct confirmation.

[a boy and his wolf]

lets not forget Tysha, we know for a certainty that Tywin had her raped to teach her a lesson.

[John Doe]

No.

[devilish]

I am a big fan of Tywin Lannister. However I fear that many rate the guy a bit too much

Tywin is a brilliant man. Military wise he's good although he did had two-three blonde moments (he walked straight into Aerys trap at Kingslanding, he saw his fleet burning at Casterly rock and allowed half his army to be lead by Jamie whose hardly a great strategist). What makes Tywin exceptional is his ability to convince others to do his bidding. He forced the Reynes to rebel, Robert to fight his wars and put his daughter on the throne, the Freys and Boltons to commit Kingslaying and Tyrion to risk his life for a family that barely liked him. The funny thing is that most of the time these people get little to nothing in exhange. The Freys and the Boltons have to claw their way in stabilizing the land 'given' to them and after the siege Tyrion was tossed like damaged goods.

However let us not rate him too much. The guy is able to wait for his moment to strike but he's as vindictive and cruel as his little Cersei and Joffrey are. He could have easily closed an eye on the Reynes (taking hostages, hanging the people responsible for the rebellion and limiting their lands) but instead opted to massacre each and every one of them including the children. Same about Tyrion. He went into great lengths in mind frecking the boy (Tysha, the trial etc) despite knowing, fully well, that the boy was gifted with great intelligence. Tywin was of course enough to cover his traces or shift the blame on circumstances (the Reynes will rebel again) or people (Gregor). As said he's a master of it

So did Tywin had Elia murdered and raped? I believed the answer is an astounding yes. Elia and her children represented the humiliation he suffered from Aerys when he said that he would never have Rhaegar marry his servant's daughter. Anything that tarnished his 'legacy' (innocent women, imps etc) had to be crushed. Think about it? If Tywin wanted Elia safe (or at least killed mercifully) do you think he would have sent Gregor? Its like Danny sending Drogon to light someone's cigarette.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Think about it? If Tywin wanted Elia safe (or at least killed mercifully) do you think he would have sent Gregor?

How many Lords and Knights in his army do you think he could order to kill children? Do you think Addam Marbrand, Kevan or Daven Lannister or the Crakehalls that we have met would have done the same?

Lets put the Reach or the Riverlands army in the same position. Had Mace or Hoster been in Tywins position and decided to kill those children how many Lords or knights of the Riverlands and the Reach could they turn to and order to go murder a baby Prince and a toddler princess? Not only is it a sickening thing to do, but there are also extreme consequences should the Targs get back in power.

The Westerlands is no different to the rest of Westeros. Its not like its Mordor and produces only evil people. Tywin might be poles apart from Ned, but the people and nobility are not that far removed from their Northern, Vale etc equivalents.

While Tywin is, in some respects, a villain of the series, he is not a cartoon villain with an army of evil henchmen ready to murder a baby at a moments notice.

He had to resort to a 17 year old Gregor Clegane. Had he had more men willing to kill royal babies he would have used them

[Mikkel]

Tywin knew who he was sending, in general terms, if not specifics. It's not like he's shied away from using rape as a (purely vindictive) punishment afterwards, so I would definitely not rule out that it was in the orders. It may not have been though (personally I think he didn't order it, but knew full well it might happen, and didn't care) - but the murder, that was almost certainly planned out like that. We know from Sandor that Gregor had a reputation even before this, so it's not like it was accidental that Gregor was the one who got the job.

[devilish]

How many Lords and Knights in his army do you think he could order to kill children? Do you think Addam Marbrand, Kevan or Daven Lannister or the Crakehalls that we have met would have done the same?

Lets put the Reach or the Riverlands army in the same position. Had Mace or Hoster been in Tywins position and decided to kill those children how many Lords or knights of the Riverlands and the Reach could they turn to and order to go murder a baby Prince and a toddler princess? Not only is it a sickening thing to do, but there are also extreme consequences should the Targs get back in power.

The Westerlands is no different to the rest of Westeros. Its not like its Mordor and produces only evil people. Tywin might be poles apart from Ned, but the people and nobility are not that far removed from their Northern, Vale etc equivalents.

While Tywin is, in some respects, a villain of the series, he is not a cartoon villain with an army of evil henchmen ready to murder a baby at a moments notice.

He had to resort to a 17 year old Gregor Clegane. Had he had more men willing to kill royal babies he would have used them

Let me ask you a question why did he tackled the issue in the first place? Elia and her children was Robert's problem and not his. At that point there was no guarantees that Robert would have married Cersei. For all we know he could have been disgusted of what Tywin did and had him arrested! So why taking the risk? Why end up hated by the Martells for it?

No deary. Tywin sent Gregor for a reason! Elia was going to be a living example of what happens to anyone who directly/indirectly acted as an obstacle to his legacy. He did the same with Tyrion wife. He could have easily bribed Tysha to leave the Westerlands for good. Instead he opted for the more cruel option.

PS After the Reyne's rebellion no Lannister bannermen would have dared saying no to Tywin! Even if they did, I am sure that there were plenty of people around ready to do it for the right price. Joffrey didn't had any issues finding someone to kill babies in the first place.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The Lannister bannermen were well trained monkeys. They wouldn't say no to their master. Also he could have easily (and maybe more conveniently) asked sellswords to do the bidding.

Not that well trained. Both the armies with Jaime and Stafford proved that.

No deary. Tywin sent Gregor for a reason! Elia was going to be a living example of what happens to anyone who directly/indirectly acted as an obstacle to his legacy. He did the same with Tyrion wife. He could have easily bribed Tysha to leave the Westerlands for good. Instead he opted for the more cruel option.

Do the general public even know about Tysha?

Why would he bribe her to leave. That would be rewarding her for doing something both she and Tywion should not have done. What do you think he would have done to a peasant who ran off and married a 13 year old Cersei?

And Tywins legacy was already secured with his destruction of the Tarbecks and Reynes. He is already responsible for the death of the Targ children, how much more rep is he going to get out of killing Elia?

And if he did it for his rep why is he denying it to both his son and people in general?

[Mikkel]

What do you think he would have done to a peasant who ran off and married a 13 year old Cersei?

Gelded him, at the very least. Though that would probably have only been the start of it.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

PS After the Reyne's rebellion no Lannister bannermen would have dared saying no to Tywin! Even if they did, I am sure that there were plenty of people around ready to do it for the right price. Joffrey didn't had any issues finding someone to kill babies in the first place.

ugh! Why do so many people think that Joffrey had the babies killed?

[Humble Maester]

No deary. Tywin sent Gregor for a reason! Elia was going to be a living example of what happens to anyone who directly/indirectly acted as an obstacle to his legacy. He did the same with Tyrion wife. He could have easily bribed Tysha to leave the Westerlands for good. Instead he opted for the more cruel option.

PS After the Reyne's rebellion no Lannister bannermen would have dared saying no to Tywin! Even if they did, I am sure that there were plenty of people around ready to do it for the right price. Joffrey didn't had any issues finding someone to kill babies in the first place.

It is a poor example if it can not be used as one. It's not like anyone refers to what Tywin did to Elia as a lesson, like they do with the Reynes and Tarbecks.

I could buy the whole "vindictive streak" explanation for Elia, but you don't set examples by trying to hide it happened. With the political ramifications of the whole attack on Red Keep, Elia really was an afterthought (that no one but Dorne seems to care about).

[devilish]

Not that well trained. Both the armies with Jaime and Stafford proved that.

Do the general public even know about Tysha?

Why would he bribe her to leave. That would be rewarding her for doing something both she and Tywion should not have done. What do you think he would have done to a peasant who ran off and married a 13 year old Cersei?

And Tywins legacy was already secured with his destruction of the Tarbecks and Reynes. He is already responsible for the death of the Targ children, how much more rep is he going to get out of killing Elia?

And if he did it for his rep why is he denying it to both his son and people in general?

- No banner men would say no to a direct Tywin command. Also the job could have been done by a sellsword or any rascal from flea bottom

- It would have made him look less of a bottom hole in front of his son. The same son who eats at his own table, he walks in his same quarters and can easily plant a crossbow bolt in his stomach while he's shitting. But no, Tywin needed to go through great lengths to punish fiercely anyone who dares tarnishing his legacy (which is to reach perfection and make everyone kneel at his family and himself). Similar to Tysha, Elia was a living testament of his perceived in limitations. Aerys preferred her as heir princess to Tywin's own daughter just as Tyrion preferred to marry a peasant girl rather then the person his father was planning for him.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

- No banner men would say no to a direct Tywin command. Also the job could have been done by a sellsword or any rascal from flea bottom

Of course some would. You think every single bannerman is going to be a mindless drone and just kill babies - royal babies at that just because Tywin Lannister ordered him to?

We may as well agree to disagree right here as I dont see this series as being able to lump an entire population as evil based on where they come from.

[devilish]

It is a poor example if it can not be used as one. It's not like anyone refers to what Tywin did to Elia as a lesson, like they do with the Reynes and Tarbecks.

I could buy the whole "vindictive streak" explanation for Elia, but you don't set examples by trying to hide it happened. With the political ramifications of the whole attack on Red Keep, Elia really was an afterthought (that no one but Dorne seems to care about).

There's a key difference between the Reynes/Tarbecks and Elia though. The former had committed high treason. They defied the warden of the Westerlands who was appointed by the King to rule the lands in his stead. His actions, while considered a bit extreme, were perfectly justified. It also acted as a warning for all bannermen not to defy the Lannisters and indirectly other main houses who may follow the same example.

On the other hand Elia and her children were guilty of no crime. She didn't kidnapped Lyanna and had never hurt anyone. Also there's a lot to lose and nothing to gain out of admitting such butchery. Robert would be placed under pressure to take some sort of action (for example can a king marry a butcher's daughter?) and the Martells honour would be at stake. For all we know even the Golden Company would be disgusted that noblemen had ordered the death of Targs children that way and may want to take some sort of action. He was better off by publically blaming the crime to a psychotic 17 year old. After all those who had a brain knew exactly who pulls the psychotic 17 year old strings.

[devilish]

Of course some would. You think every single bannerman is going to be a mindless drone and just kill babies - royal babies at that just because Tywin Lannister ordered him to?

We may as well agree to disagree right here as I dont see this series as being able to lump an entire population as evil based on where they come from.

I am confident that he would find plenty of bannermen who were ready to do it.

If you are into psychology then I suggest you read about the Milgram experiment and how the majority of perfectly normal people are able to do despicable acts simply because an authoritative person had ordered them to. Kindly note that the authoritative person in question was just a scientist and not some warden who had wiped two families for defying him.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I am confident that he would find at least 1 banner man ready to do it.

He found 2, Lorch and Clegane. There may have been others but I doubt there were many with both the necessary training to track her down, with the stomach to kill children, who he could trust to actually do the job and who were not fearful of the consequences of killing the heir to the Throne of Westeros.

If you are into psychology then I suggest you read about the Milgram experiment and how the majority of perfectly normal people are able to do despicable acts simply because an authoritative person had ordered them to. Kindly note that the authoritative person in question was just a scientist and not some warden who had wiped two families for defying him.

Is Tywin giving people who disobey him electric shocks?

I know Tywin and Tyrant sound pretty similar but there is no evidence that the Westerlands had state terror with Lords and Knights fearful of their lives under the great oppressor.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

He found 2, Lorch and Clegane. There may have been others but I doubt there were many with both the necessary training to track her down, with the stomach to kill children, who he could trust to actually do the job and who were not fearful of the consequences of killing the heir to the Throne of Westeros

Sorry but it really doesn't matter. There are exactly two possibilities after he's chosen his weapons thusly. Either he tells them not to kill Elia and they obey because they are indeed loyal (which we know he didn't do), or tells them nothing and she is almost certainly brutally killed along with her kids.

Someone as meticulous as Tywin would not have forgotten about Elia - this is the future Queen of westeros and the woman who was in the place he believed destined for his daughter. He would have grinned to himself quietly that she would end up an "unfortunate" victim of the monsters he sent. Tywins hands are clean, but the earth is scorched just how he likes it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Someone as meticulous as Tywin would not have forgotten about Elia - this is the future Queen of westeros and the woman who was in the place he believed destined for his daughter. He would have grinned to himself quietly that she would end up an "unfortunate" victim of the monsters he sent. Tywins hands are clean, but the earth is scorched just how he likes it.

This is something I find rather curious about Tywin fans. While they aren't exactly "apologists", many of them praise him for his decisions and his good skills at commander (which no one denies he had). This, of course, speaks of him being a man, as you said, meticulous. He would have NEVER, as you also said, "forgotten" about Elia, specially if he was aware of what kind of men Gregor and Lorche where, and again, the "meticulous" men Tywin was wouldn't have send men he wasn't sure would do his will with dealing with a Princess of Dorne. Apparently, Tywin was very careful and meticulous, except when he actually needed to be :dunno:

[John Doe]

It is completely possible for him forgetting about Elia while his son is possibly threatened, in the heat of battle. This only makes the character more interesting.