(F)Aegon = Perkin Warbeck ?

[JanAgro]

Quick history lesson, Perkin WarBeck was a pretender to the throne of England who claimed to be the younger son of Edward IV , Richard of Shrewsbury (one of the infamous "princes in the the tower").He was eventually executed by Henry VIi the winner of the War of the Roses

Now my question Since we know GRRM is basing the ASOIAF series around the war of the roses Is Perkin Warbeck RL fate foreshawoing the fact that Aegon is not who he says he is and will be eventually defeated?

[Steinnis]

Mayhaps. It's loosely based on the War of the Roses, I'm sure GRRM can come up with some plot developments of his own.

[Mladen]

Yes, Apple Martini, IIRC, made brilliant comparison between these two... I compared fAegon with Anna Anderson, but this one works better.

[Pikachu101]

Interesting theory :) Dany would be Henry VII of course

BUT

What if Jon will be used as Perkin Warbeck and (f)Aegon is Henry VII :eek:

[King of Winters]

I made a thread about how (F)Aegon could be Lambert Simnel, who was nephew to Edward IV, and when he raised an army against Henry he was defeated. But as he was a fake and young Henry let him live. I think this parallels (F)Aegon and Dany, except for the end part where he lives.

[JanAgro]

I made a thread about how (F)Aegon could be Lambert Simnel, who was nephew to Edward IV, and when he raised an army against Henry he was defeated. But as he was a fake and young Henry let him live. I think this parallels (F)Aegon and Dany, except for the end part where he lives.

Thats even better than my idea :bowdown: , after all Simnell was raised to be a king the way (f)Aegon was.He was picked IIRC specifically because he looked the part

[King of Winters]

Thats even better than my idea :bowdown: , after all Simnell was raised to be a king the way (f)Aegon was

Yeah, I realised the similarities when I was watching a documentary on Henry VII called "The Winter King" and I just thought "(F)Aegon!"

The thread's called "The Winter King", rebels and (F)Aegon parallel.

[JanAgro]

Just read the thread you post a lot of good ideas for example Varys + Richard Simons JonConn = Earl of Lincoln

One thing i find funny : The guy limnell was claiming to be Edward, the Earl of Warrick was actually alive in the tower at the time Simnell was outside it pretending to be him!!!

[Ser Luke.]

I wouldn't be surprised if that's where George got his inspiration. I never really thought about that.

[Frey family reunion]

Hmmm the Simnel Wiki is very interesting. I've beaten the drum for a while to massive indifference that Young Griff could actually be the son of the current Black Pearl of Braavos, Otherys Belegare, or something like that. The son of a prostitute who if the Titan's Bastard can be believed at all might look an awful lot like Daenerys.

[Fire Eater]

So it would be safe to say (F)Aegon has bits of Perkin Warbeck (claiming to be murdered prince), Henry VII (displayed banner of red dragon to win Wales, the political influence of Dorne, and was descended from bastard of royal house through female line) and Lambert Simnell (false pretender raised to rule).

One thing I would add about Simnell is that Henry VII made him roasting food on the spit in the royal kitchen. A hint to (F)Aegon's fate only with himself being roasted?

[Brother Seamus]

You're assuming Perkin Warbeck was actually fake, and that the younger son of King Edward IV did in fact die in the tower. These are not certain facts.

I just read two of the Philipa Gregory War of the Roses historical novels, the White Queen and the Red Queen, and the she subscribes to the theory (and puts in her novel) that the younger son, Richard, was not in the tower; that his mother the queen, Elizabeth Woodville, surrendered a fake to Richard III to go into the tower with his older brother, sent her younger son to Tournai to hide, and then brought him back. In other words, she suggests that Perkin Warbeck might in fact have been real.

I am far from having enough expertise to form my own opinion in the matter, but from my skimming (mainly wikipedia) I think this is certainly possible, and perhaps likely. The main, and maybe only, evidence Perkin was fake was his own confession, extracted under torture. The main point for his being real in the White Queen is that at the time Richard was supposedly surrendered to his uncle Richard III (though he'd not yet claimed the throne, so at that point, Richard of York, Duke of Gloucester), his mother was already well aware that uncle Richard was a danger to her sons and probably intending to claim the throne. It would have ben very dumb to just turn him over, if there was any way to avoid it.

I realize this depends on several facts I know nothing about-especially, whether Richard III knew his nephews by sight-but my impression is that it's very plausible.

[Adamcarter]

Agree with the lambert theory completely, I had to check the forum after reading about this pretender to see if someone else had made the connection

[King Tam Stark]

You're assuming Perkin Warbeck was actually fake, and that the younger son of King Edward IV did in fact die in the tower. These are not certain facts.

I just read two of the Philipa Gregory War of the Roses historical novels, the White Queen and the Red Queen, and the she subscribes to the theory (and puts in her novel) that the younger son, Richard, was not in the tower; that his mother the queen, Elizabeth Woodville, surrendered a fake to Richard III to go into the tower with his older brother, sent her younger son to Tournai to hide, and then brought him back. In other words, she suggests that Perkin Warbeck might in fact have been real.

I am far from having enough expertise to form my own opinion in the matter, but from my skimming (mainly wikipedia) I think this is certainly possible, and perhaps likely. The main, and maybe only, evidence Perkin was fake was his own confession, extracted under torture. The main point for his being real in the White Queen is that at the time Richard was supposedly surrendered to his uncle Richard III (though he'd not yet claimed the throne, so at that point, Richard of York, Duke of Gloucester), his mother was already well aware that uncle Richard was a danger to her sons and probably intending to claim the throne. It would have ben very dumb to just turn him over, if there was any way to avoid it.

I realize this depends on several facts I know nothing about-especially, whether Richard III knew his nephews by sight-but my impression is that it's very plausible.

The White Queen novel was adapted and was just on tv here in the uk and as you say it's far from certain who killed the princes and if Richard was the real Richard

Personally I don't think anybodys fate in asoiaf is certain even if they are inspired from real life

[Brother Seamus]

The White Queen novel was adapted and was just on tv here in the uk and as you say it's far from certain who killed the princes and if Richard was the real Richard

Personally I don't think anybodys fate in asoiaf is certain even if they are inspired from real life

For sure. Whatever the historical parallel or inspiration, anything could happen.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

I know that Asoiaf (specifically GoT) rather resembles the War of the Roses than the Time of Troubles, but still, some other(interesting) parallels:

http://en.wikipedia....disambiguation)

[WhiteOwl18]

You're assuming Perkin Warbeck was actually fake, and that the younger son of King Edward IV did in fact die in the tower. These are not certain facts.

I just read two of the Philipa Gregory War of the Roses historical novels, the White Queen and the Red Queen, and the she subscribes to the theory (and puts in her novel) that the younger son, Richard, was not in the tower; that his mother the queen, Elizabeth Woodville, surrendered a fake to Richard III to go into the tower with his older brother, sent her younger son to Tournai to hide, and then brought him back. In other words, she suggests that Perkin Warbeck might in fact have been real.

I am far from having enough expertise to form my own opinion in the matter, but from my skimming (mainly wikipedia) I think this is certainly possible, and perhaps likely. The main, and maybe only, evidence Perkin was fake was his own confession, extracted under torture. The main point for his being real in the White Queen is that at the time Richard was supposedly surrendered to his uncle Richard III (though he'd not yet claimed the throne, so at that point, Richard of York, Duke of Gloucester), his mother was already well aware that uncle Richard was a danger to her sons and probably intending to claim the throne. It would have ben very dumb to just turn him over, if there was any way to avoid it.

I realize this depends on several facts I know nothing about-especially, whether Richard III knew his nephews by sight-but my impression is that it's very plausible.

Two things:

- Philippa Gregory is not a very good source; she's a novelist, not an historian and historians all over the world have pointed out all the flaws and mistakes in her novels, so I would take her word with a huge grain of salt;

- wikipedia, while very useful, is not the best source either: there are a lot of mistakes in there too

Whether Perkin Warbeck was real or not, that doesn't stop GRRM from using his story in his own way.