Which Stark Is More Guilty ?

[Knight Of Winter]

1) I don't think it was secure. His child was baby. How it is secure ?

2) I know the theories. But this are 'theories' so, no one should present to discussion like it is evident.

1) We can only speculate, but maybe Benjen joined when e.g. Robb and Sansa were already born, whith Catelyn bieng pregnant with Arya. That's 3 heirs already (with Jon Snow as a spare), so maybe he thought it was enough.

2) I know they are theories. But you asked In books, which part tells Lyanna go to Rhaegar, 'willingly' ???, and I posted a link which answers your question.

[Team_Rob]

None. When does the married man with children who run off with a lord's daughter promised to someone else be taken into account? Everyone talks about Robb breaking his word to the Freys, but its seldoned mentioned that Rhaegar is a married man who should have been more responsible. What about Lord Whent. If there's no tourney at Harranhal, Rhaegar and Lyanna never meet. OK, I'm only kidding about Lord Whent.

[devilrob6]

Benjen didn't do anything that caused the Stark's downfall. I agree with Knight of Winter that he probably joined after Ned had kids. Also Starks have a strong historical link to the NW.

Brandon didn't trigger the war. It probably wasn't very smart to go to KL and, but Aerys reaction was out of proportion.

Robb was young and was thrown into a position he never should have had and wasn't ready for. Releasing Theon was a huge mistake, but he could not have known the ironborn would attack the North and that Theon would take Winterfell. Marrying Jeyne was a big mistake too, losing the support of the Freys.

I think Ned was the one who's to blame most for the Starks current situation, with Robb as a close second. Catelyn did her share of work as well (capturing Tyrion, releasing Jaime). All in all it's a team effort, but Benjen and Brandon should not be on the list.

[Tony Soprano]

I think Balon would attack north, but without Theon, they couldn't capture Winterfell, since Theon knows exactly how north and winterfell works, and he succeed. plus fake death of young princes. This makes Robb open target since he has no heir in winterfell.

He knows how the North works, huh? A lot of good that did him. If Roose's bastard hadn't shown up when he did, Theon would have hanged. I'm not saying the Ironborn could have held the North, but their chances would have been slightly better if Theon hadn't done what he did. And no, Balon would not have attacked the North. He saw Robb's alliance proposal as a weakness, that's why he struck against the North.

This Theon thing, i think we can blame Ned too, with taking his only son, Balon hates Stark most imo. And it is possible that, Balonattacked North because of this.

Yeah, just blame Ned for everything. It's easier that way.

Balon hated Robert and Ned first and foremost because they took his crown away from him, they made him kneel. And then there's also the deaths of Maron and Rodrik to consider. We saw the kind of reception Theon got when he returned to Pyke. Balon didn't care about him - he was grooming Asha to succeed him instead.

I blame him most. If he care NW so much, there are hundreds soldier he can send to damn NW. Ok if there was 3 or 4 stark, you can go there.

But there is only ONE !

If Ned dies somehow with natural causes or accident, what then ? Benjen's behaviour was carefree for his house.

We don't know why Benjen joined the Night's Watch, but we know he joined after Robert's Rebellion. While Ned was off fighting the Targaryens, Benjen was the man who held Winterfell and the North together. He did what was expected of him, he did his duty to his House. Ned came back from the South with a bastard son, and Catelyn had given birth to Robb by that time. So, Ned had an heir, and he had a safety net - Jon. We've seen that legitimizing bastards to keep the family name going isn't unprecedented.

Robb would never be in that position if Ned didn't put him in it. Ned wasn't doing what Robert told him to, he tried to make Stannis king.

Ned died shortly after the Siege of Riverrun, which was the second major victory Robb had won against the Lannisters. He had Jaime as his prisoner, and he had enough troops to make Tywin think twice about continuing the conflict. He could have easily used Jaime to secure a peace treaty with them, and returned North.

Disregard my previous post, I was mistaken. What Robert actually tells Ned to do is rule as Lord Protector of the Realm until the heir comes of age. He doesn't say Joffrey specifically. Ned, knowing what he knew, planned to depose Joffrey in favor of Stannis, who is Robert's legal heir.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Robb would never be in that position if Ned didn't put him in it. Ned wasn't doing what Robert told him to, he tried to make Stannis king.

Ned didn't try to make Stannis king, Stannis was the rightful king. I agree this falls on Ned, but because he acted out of morals instead of self preservation. It got him killed but most of the others who acted out of preservation still ended up dead anyway so where does that leave Ned? Looked upon fondly by his people in the North thats where.

[~DarkHorse~]

dont realy wanna pick a side here, but robb should have been cold as ice, instead of that, he broke the contract, thinking only about himself, not the future of the north

He was not only thinking about himself (in his eyes)- he was doing the honourable thing in marrying Jeyne. He didn't want to leave her with a Bastard (thinking about Jon) who would grow up as an outcast. What he did was honourable not selfish. He was a 16 year old boy not a political expert so I think his actions can be viewed as being more foolish rather than selfish.

Although, I agree he would have been more successful if he inspired to be a true player and King of Winter rather than his honourable father. If only he'd pushed aside his feelings for Jeyene to play the game like he did with not exchanging the King Slayer for Sansa....

Although, Robb was not thinking only about himself when he made that decision, he thought he was doing the right thing. All in all, he was a decent young man who go viciously betrayed by cowards.

[Cold Hands Luke]

Ned, he agreed to have Lady killed and cursed Sansa and his house right then and there.

[juanml82]

Ned.

He didn't prepare the North for facing adversity: he left the Stony Shore undefended, neglected (as all Starks before him) the sea power, both in merchant and war fleets. He didn't seek to reinforce his forces with the wargs and giants living on the other side of the Wall (imagine Robb descending into the Riverlands with giants in plate armor and half a dozen of fully trained wargs including himself!)

He didn't develop the Northern economy.

He didn't secure Tommen or Myrcella as wards before going to KL.

He didn't prepare Sansa for the realities of life.

And then, all the stuff he did in KL

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I agree with the consensus that the Fall of House Stark began with Ned and ended with Robb.

The moment Ned foolishly revealed to Cersei that he knew of the incest, he sealed his family's fate.

The moment Robb decided to put his lust before his duty he put the nail in the coffin.

[Isildur's Mane]

House Stark destroyed somehow. Well, which Stark is more guilty ?

-Brandon Stark

He trigger the war. He went to KL to face off crown prince Rhaegar and because of his carefree behaviour he captured, and executed with his father. Starks lost their first heir, and their lord.

-Eddard Stark

He was succesful about RR, but he failed in KL. He left only one suitable aged heir. And he cause bad condition for his daughters, and his family. Also he should stop Benjen for going NW, imo.

-Benjen Stark

There was only one Stark, and you are going to NW... What was he thinking ???

-Robb Stark

Breaking his marriage contract, sending Theon back. This are his mistakes i think.

But no one expect from him won all his battles. If he would lose his first battle, like everyone expect, they could not resist even 1 year too. Not only Tywin, even his father didn't think he would won.

Every lord of his accept his leadership, even river lords... And some events was unlucky for him like Edmure attacked Tywin... So i blame Robb minimum.

1-) Benjen

2-) Eddard

3-) Brandon

4-) Robb

First of all, I don't think one person can be blamed for the fall of house Stark. I also think that they will be coming back, so it might be a bit early to say.

Though OP, I'm not sure how you have come to Benjen as the top guy to blame, but I will get to that later.

I feel Ned has a lot to answer for, though I also think that he generally thought he was doing what he felt was right, but he was also a bit short sighted.

Brandon was hotheaded and had some of the wolf blood, but to be honest, we don't know exactly what he had heard happened to Lyanna that made him go off to KL so quickly in a rage.

Also Lyanna possibly needs to be on this list too, but same with Brandon, we just don't know everything yet.

Robb, made some mistakes, marrying Jeyne was the biggest, but he also did good things too. He managed to command a lot of loyalty (though, of course, not evenone can be loyal), getting both Northern Lords and River Lords to bow to him and make him king.

Benjen, though, I don't believe belongs on this list.

From the chapter where Jon meets Mance, he tells Jon about the first time he went to Winterfell. Qorgyle was the LC then and Robb and Jon were probably 5-7 (possibly older). I base this on the fact that they were playing a prank on Fat Tom, by dumping snow on him. If they were any younger I doubt they could of done it.

Mance the goes on to tell Jon about the 2nd time he went to Winterfell and one of the reasons for going (as well as getting a look at Robert) was getting a measure of Benjen, who had become first ranger be then.

So if Mance hadn't met Bengen when he first joined the NW that means that Benjen didn't join until Robb and Jon were 5-7 possibly older. So that means that Sansa (being 3 years younger) and Arya (being 5 years younger) would of been born and most likely Bran too (though not necessarily).

So if that is so, there would be no reason for Benjen to stay at Winterfell. Should he have waited a bit longer? Possibly, but I don't blame him for wanting to start his own life in the NW.

[Pikachu101]

I agree with Benjen and Robb, but not Brandon and Ned. And even then we don't know enough about Benjen to make an argument, so I'm going to throw all the blame on Robb

House Stark destroyed somehow. Well, which Stark is more guilty ?

-Brandon Stark

He trigger the war. He went to KL to face off crown prince Rhaegar and because of his carefree behaviour he captured, and executed with his father. Starks lost their first heir, and their lord.

He thought his 15 year old sister had been kidnapped and raped, I highly doubt anyone would think logically if their sibling was in danger <_<

And no he didn't start the war, Aerys (long term) and Rhaegar (short term) did. Also I don't understand why you're throwing so much blame on Brandon and not Lyanna. Her carefree behaviour is what made everyone think she had been kidnapped.

-Eddard Stark

He was succesful about RR, but he failed in KL. He left only one suitable aged heir. And he cause bad condition for his daughters, and his family. Also he should stop Benjen for going NW, imo.

We don't know why Benjen joined the NWs, it could have been something that was decided before Ned became Lord of Winterfell :dunno:

Ned's a Stark, they all fail when it comes to KL politics. But I don't see how trying to save a mother and her three children is worthy of scorn <_<

Ned's plan was just as likely to have worked as Cersei's; both were ridiculous and dependent on chance.

I don't see he left only one suitable aged heir as an argument. It's not like Ned knew he was going to get killed and that at 14 Robb would have to fight a war :rolleyes:

I'll agree with the daughters:

1. Ned gave the "wolf pack" speech to the wrong one. Arya was always about family, it was Sansa who needed reminding

2. He took far too long in breaking Sansa's marriage to Joffrey. IMO he should have stopped it the minute he found out Joffrey attacked Arya

3. He didn't explain to Sansa the predicament that they were in, and she was clearly set on marrying Joffrey

But I wouldn't say he was the one who endangered his daughters nor was he the one who put the family in danger. The Lannisters are just cruel and vicious, that's not Ned's fault he confessed to treason just so Sansa would live.

As for the condition of House Stark, they were fine until Robb started acting like an idiot <_<

[TheIronVictorie]

Nedd has 3 sons, Benjen going to the nw is not an issue imho.

Several of Robb's decisions seems quite bad, among them :

- he 's bad at managing some of his vassals. He did not keep an eye on Roose, which allowed him to destroy Robb's army from the inside. He also was quite bad at managing Edmure;

- he should have punished Cat in some way, and should not have killed Rickard Kastark (some other form of punishment should have been better :sending him to the nw for example);

- the whole "king in the north and in the riverlands" idea was a huge mistake.

^ exactly

[RhaenysBee]

The No 1 Stark mistake to me is still Eddard telling Cersei that he knew about her children being bastards.

No 2 is Eddard trusting Littlefinger

No 3 is obviously Robb sending Theon home.

No 4 is Robb breaking marriage contract.

No 5 is Sansa trusting Cersei more than she trusted her sister and father.

And in this case, Catelyn doesn't count as a Stark

[AzorAhai42]

Well... first of all I think a lot of people are responsible for Robb's death. More than just his two mistakes. Yes, he should not have sent Theon home, and yes he should not have broken his marriage contract. Also, Catelyn should not have released Jaime Lannister; Edmure should not have thwarted Robb's plans to catch Tywin; Karstark should not have killed unarmed children hostages; Bolton should not have betrayed; and Frey should not have betrayed.

That being said, the Stark who is most at fault has to be Eddard. It's obvious that he did a great job raising his children, but perhaps he should have instilled into Robb more caution, or more about warfare. However, that's Eddard's smallest mistake. His biggest was going to King's Landing in the first place. He should have refused Robert. Then when Robert died, Ned should have just said whatever he needed to say or do, so that he would be able to safely leave. Hindsight is 20/20, I can't blame him too much for trusting Littlefinger, I might have as well before I knew what type of person LF was. However, he shouldn't have even been there. He could have told Stannis everything from the safety of Winterfell.

[Morienthar]

It was all of them really apart from Brandon.

Ned was just the first domino.

[Willard/Mitt Lannister]

I think a lot of good points are being made. In order of least to most responsible I would say it goes-

Benjen: Younger brothers of reigning lords in the middle ages had to be taken care of so that their children didn't go claim the seat for themselves and cause a civil war. We know that in recent history Winterfell was plagued by a conflict like this so it makes sense that Benjen would join the NW--where he wouldn't father any competitors to Robb's claim. I don't see Benjen as being responsible at all for the fall of House Stark because he had few other options besides this. He couldn't become a knight and serve as a knightly branch of House Stark because of his religion. I suppose he could join the faith or become a maester but that would present the same problems...

Brandon: Now, Brandon exhibits some awful decision making. Why he did what he did was stupid beyond compare and actually did contribute to the end of House Stark.

Robb: Now, to be fair, Robb probably would have won the war if Edmure Tully had not fought the Battle of the Stone Mill. (I am actually making a post about this later) but is still partially fault at that for not giving Edmure better instructions. He also was dumb to cross House Frey and dumb again to trust them to let it go. He didn't supervise Roose Bolton enough and let him piss away his infantry.

Ned: Ned made a lot of mistakes. Ned told Cersei about his plans, spurned Renly, trusted Littlefinger.... In fact, if Ned had just never told Cersei and never trusted Littlefinger, he might actually be ruling in Kings Landing while his children and wife are safely in Winterfell. Thus, Ned is the most responsible.

Now, I would also contest the idea that House Stark is destroyed. House Arryn is about to be extinguished in the male line, Half of House Lannister is dead, the Freys are dropping like flies, and House Baratheon is going to die out in the male line if Stannis doesn't have a son. Ned is dead and his wife is well... sort of dead. But, 4 of his 5 children live (and his sister's probably son probably lives).

[mrunderhill]

The Starks seem to have gone through a boom then bust cycle in recent years.

When Rickard was born, things did not look promising. Apart from relatives in the Vale he was an only child, but he did a good job. Had 4 kids secured the succession and made powerful allies.

Then comes the bust caused by most Lyanna and Brandon. They get themselves and Rickard killed and the mad king orders Ned dead. Very bad situation, but Ned against all odds triumphs, puts the Starks in a great position and has 5 kids to secure the succession.

Years later Ned mucks up, along with Catelyn and the Starks are in a terrible position. Brandon and Rickon are safe, but Ned is captive along with the girls. Robb has to defeat Tywin against all odds or they are going to be destroyed.

Robb does a Ned and pulls off great victories. He is now in a position to put the Starks back in a safe position, but he mucks up from here. So the current situation of the Stark's is mostly Robb's fault.

[Erkan12]

I think a lot of good points are being made. In order of least to most responsible I would say it goes-

Benjen: Younger brothers of reigning lords in the middle ages had to be taken care of so that their children didn't go claim the seat for themselves and cause a civil war. We know that in recent history Winterfell was plagued by a conflict like this so it makes sense that Benjen would join the NW--where he wouldn't father any competitors to Robb's claim. I don't see Benjen as being responsible at all for the fall of House Stark because he had few other options besides this. He couldn't become a knight and serve as a knightly branch of House Stark because of his religion. I suppose he could join the faith or become a maester but that would present the same problems...

Wrong. How many Lannister around there ? Six ? Seven ?

Tywin

Jaime

Kevan

Lancel

Stafford

Daven

And not one of them make trouble... Rather they help each other. Because of that, i think even after Jaime, Tywin's capture/death would not stop the battle. Kevan or Daven could keep going against their enemy.

But with Ned's death, Robb become open target, if you kill him there would be no aged heir for them. Lost of Winterfell and young prince's death is one of the reasons for Boltons and Freys betrayal, maybe most important point.

[Khal Shaggydog]

The No 1 Stark mistake to me is still Eddard telling Cersei that he knew about her children being bastards.

No 2 is Eddard trusting Littlefinger

No 3 is obviously Robb sending Theon home.

No 4 is Robb breaking marriage contract.

No 5 is Sansa trusting Cersei more than she trusted her sister and father.

And in this case, Catelyn doesn't count as a Stark

Nailed it. I'd just expand on #1 and 2 to Eddards generally crappy foray to KL. Not preparing the home base for any kind of autonomy if he was incommunicado, not informing his children of the dangers they were facing, until way too late in the game (and even then he didn't actually tell Sansa and Arya, and we know exactly how that turned out).

[pyon]

The only reason i would say I don't hold Ned the most responsible is because even though he was so naive and told Cersei what he knew, i believe war was going to come between the Starks and Lannisters ever since 1)Littlefinger persuaded Lysa to tell Cat the Lannisters were behind Jon Arryns death, 2)Cat kidnapped Tyrion.

Even though there is not one person to blame, I would hold Robb more responsible than the others purely because I believe the red wedding was by far the most major event in not only basically destroying the starks, but weakening the north as a whole, and he must be held accountable for marrying jeyne. As well as this he went against good advice and let Theon go back to the Iron Islands which resulted in him losing Winterfell and making the world believe Bran and Rickon are dead, further devaluing the Stark name.