Did Sansa Lose Lady Because of Lying to Arya

[The Prince of Ice]

(This is not a reply to the above particular post, but to the claim -from various posters- that Sansa's lie actually helped Arya. The post is quoted because it helps me as a reference)

While I agree that Lady was going to be killed anyway, irrelevently of what Sansa might have said, I believe it is wrong to say that Sansa's "testimony" was going to help Arya in any way. Arya herself told the whole story, and I believe that the text parts in the quoted post prove that we actually know that she said the same version that Sansa told to Ned: Ned is there and listens to Arya's story, and he knows that she is telling the truth, because he had heard the same version of events from Sansa.

Also, the way I understand it, he was not expecting her to clarify "whether Arya and Mycah both instigated an attack on Joffrey together", he was expecting her to confirm that Joffrey attacked Myckah first and started the whole event without any provocation. Ned was expecting that the person he thought Robert was, would never punish his daughter for this, he'd rather be worried for his son's behaviour. Ned also believed that whatever Cersei might demand in her fury, Robert would be the one to decide on the matter (poor Ned...)

So, Sansa's "I don't remember" was not hiding any aggravating evidence against Arya, nor was this Sansa's intention. The reason was that she did not want any part in this (I don't blame her). Again, it did not play any part in Arya's punishement (or lack of), as it played no part in Lady's death. Cersei was out for blood, she would be any way no matter what. Cersei did not need any confirmation (nor contradiction) of Arya's actions to demand her blood, like she didn't care if Lady was or wasn't the one who bite Joffrey to have her killed.

Would it matter if she had told the truth? My opinion is that it would matter, to her. Admitting publically that Joffrey is a liar, and a saddist, hearing herself saying it, would have protected her from wanting him again, from trusting him and Cersei.

---------

He cut him enough to bleed... In my book, this is an attack, not a threat.

Agree fully with this.

[Petyr Patter]

It's one thing to speculate whether or not telling the truth would have saved Lady.

It's quite another to actually blame Sansa for what followed. She was 11, there were adults around.

Cersei was the one who demanded Lady's death, Robert was the one who passed judgement (as king and judge), and Eddard carried out the act. Figure out which of the three deserves the blame. I mostly blame Robert for not telling Cersei what a stupid punishment it was.

[Ser Not Appearing]

My God, butterbumps, how could we be so stubborn

The stubborn part is simply continued adherence to perceived truth. It's a good thing, unlike the manner of presentation which too-oft suggests opinion is fact and non-acceptance is ignorance.

I stated it's just my opinion and followed it by saying I've been known to be wrong... frequently. If that isn't acceptably even-handed enough for your liking, I don't know what to say.

[butterbumps!]

(This is not a reply to the above particular post, but to the claim -from various posters- that Sansa's lie actually helped Arya. The post is quoted because it helps me as a reference)

While I agree that Lady was going to be killed anyway, irrelevently of what Sansa might have said, I believe it is wrong to say that Sansa's "testimony" was going to help Arya in any way. Arya herself told the whole story, and I believe that the text parts in the quoted post prove that we actually know that she said the same version that Sansa told to Ned: Ned is there and listens to Arya's story, and he knows that she is telling the truth, because he had heard the same version of events from Sansa.

Yes, I know Sansa gives Ned the same story, though given the way Arya downplays her culpability at the beginning (“She just bit him a little. He was hurting Mycah.”), we can't be certain that Arya doesn't emphasize or downplay some aspects of this (and I never meant to suggest that Arya outright lies, but exaggerates or downplays potentially).

Also, the way I understand it, he was not expecting her to clarify "whether Arya and Mycah both instigated an attack on Joffrey together", he was expecting her to confirm that Joffrey attacked Myckah first and started the whole event without any provocation.

This is still slippery; when Joffrey comes upon the scene, he chastises Mycah for hitting a noble lady. Even though Sansa says she knows Arya well enough to know that Arya would have invited Mycah to play with her, Sansa cannot prove with her testimony that Joffrey wasn't threatening Mycah out of some perceived attempt at protecting Arya. I brought up confirming it wasn't a double attack, because that's specifically the lie Joffrey tells.

Ned was expecting that the person he thought Robert was, would never punish his daughter for this, he'd rather be worried for his son's behaviour. Ned also believed that whatever Cersei might demand in her fury, Robert would be the one to decide on the matter (poor Ned...)

I agree with this. Ned miscalculates.

So, Sansa's "I don't remember" was not hiding any aggravating evidence against Arya, nor was this Sansa's intention. The reason was that she did not want any part in this (I don't blame her). Again, it did not play any part in Arya's punishement (or lack of), as it played no part in Lady's death. Cersei was out for blood, she would be any way no matter what. Cersei did not need any confirmation (nor contradiction) of Arya's actions to demand her blood, like she didn't care if Lady was or wasn't the one who bite Joffrey to have her killed.

Agreed.

He cut him enough to bleed... In my book, this is an attack, not a threat.

I don't think this would have counted as an "attack" at the point in which Arya intervenes. Joffrey could easily play the "I was being gallant and thought he had attacked Arya" trump card. I also don't believe that even if Ned saw this as a true attack on Mycah, a peasant, that most of the court, not least of which, Cersei, would have found this an acceptable reason for Arya to attack Joffrey in response.

[butterbumps!]

The stubborn part is simply continued adherence to perceived truth. It's a good thing, unlike the manner of presentation which too-oft suggests opinion is fact and non-acceptance is ignorance.

But I have been correct about the Sansa lie-Lady's death causation. Lady doesn't die because of Sansa. There's ample textual proof for this, so it's wishful thinking on your part to call these arguments a case of ignorance. Thus far, neither you nor anyone else has been able to prove causation of Sansa's lack of testimony to Lady's death specifically.

I stated it's just my opinion and followed it by saying I've been known to be wrong... frequently.

This is one of those times.

[Elaena Targaryen]

This is still slippery; when Joffrey comes upon the scene, he chastises Mycah for hitting a noble lady. Even though Sansa says she knows Arya well enough to know that Arya would have invited Mycah to play with her, Sansa cannot prove with her testimony that Joffrey wasn't threatening Mycah out of some perceived attempt at protecting Arya. I brought up confirming it wasn't a double attack, because that's specifically the lie Joffrey tells.

I don't think this would have counted as an "attack" at the point in which Arya intervenes. Joffrey could easily play the "I was being gallant and thought he had attacked Arya" trump card. I also don't believe that even if Ned saw this as a true attack on Mycah, a peasant, that most of the court, not least of which, Cersei, would have found this an acceptable reason for Arya to attack Joffrey in response.

I'm not sure on the parts I bolded in your post. I think this is where Sansa's testimony might have helped looking at the text, but this is all speculation since Joffery did not play the "I was being gallant" card.

"Go away," Arya shouted back at them, angry tears in her eyes. "What are you doing here? Leave us alone."

Joffrey glanced from Arya to Sansa and back again. "Your sister?" She nodded, blushing. Joffrey examined the boy, an ungainly lad with a coarse, freckled face and thick red hair. "And who are you, boy?" he asked in a commanding tone that took no notice of the fact that the other was a year his senior.

"Mycah," the boy muttered. He recognized the prince and averted his eyes. "M'Iord."

"He's the butcher's boy," Sansa said.

"He's my friend," Arya said sharply. "You leave him alone."

"A butcher's boy who wants to be a knight, is it?" Joffrey swung down from his mount, sword in hand. "Pick up your sword, butcher's boy," he said, his eyes bright with amusement. "Let us see how good you are."

Mycah stood there, frozen with fear.

Joffrey walked toward him. "Go on, pick it up. Or do you only fight little girls?"

"She ast me to, m'lord," Mycah said. "She ast me to."

Sansa had only to glance at Arya and see the flush on her sister's face to know the boy was telling the truth, but Joffrey was in no mood to listen. The wine had made him wild. "Are you going to pick up your sword?"

Mycah shook his head. "It's only a stick, m'lord. It's not no sword, it's only a stick."

"And you're only a butcher's boy, and no knight." Joffrey lifted Lion's Tooth and laid its point on Mycah's cheek below the eye, as the butcher's boy stood trembling. "That was my lady's sister you were hitting, do you know that?" A bright bud of blood blossomed where his sword pressed into Mycah's flesh, and a slow red line trickled down the boy's cheek.

"Stop it!" Arya screamed.

[Ser Not Appearing]

But I have been correct about the Sansa lie-Lady's death causation. Lady doesn't die because of Sansa. There's ample textual proof for this, so it's wishful thinking on your part to call these arguments a case of ignorance. Thus far, neither you nor anyone else has been able to prove causation of Sansa's lack of testimony to Lady's death specifically.

There is no proof. There is plenty of persuasive context, however.

... and to the contrary - I don't wish for your argument to be "ignorant." I just happen to think it's poorly made. We'll both get over it if you can suffer someone disagreeing with you.

[The Prince of Ice]

I'm not sure on the parts I bolded in your post. I think this is where Sansa's testimony might have helped looking at the text, but this is all speculation since Joffery did not play the "I was being gallant" card.

"Go away," Arya shouted back at them, angry tears in her eyes. "What are you doing here? Leave us alone."

Joffrey glanced from Arya to Sansa and back again. "Your sister?" She nodded, blushing. Joffrey examined the boy, an ungainly lad with a coarse, freckled face and thick red hair. "And who are you, boy?" he asked in a commanding tone that took no notice of the fact that the other was a year his senior.

"Mycah," the boy muttered. He recognized the prince and averted his eyes. "M'Iord."

"He's the butcher's boy," Sansa said.

"He's my friend," Arya said sharply. "You leave him alone."

"A butcher's boy who wants to be a knight, is it?" Joffrey swung down from his mount, sword in hand. "Pick up your sword, butcher's boy," he said, his eyes bright with amusement. "Let us see how good you are."

Mycah stood there, frozen with fear.

Joffrey walked toward him. "Go on, pick it up. Or do you only fight little girls?"

"She ast me to, m'lord," Mycah said. "She ast me to."

Sansa had only to glance at Arya and see the flush on her sister's face to know the boy was telling the truth, but Joffrey was in no mood to listen. The wine had made him wild. "Are you going to pick up your sword?"

Mycah shook his head. "It's only a stick, m'lord. It's not no sword, it's only a stick."

"And you're only a butcher's boy, and no knight." Joffrey lifted Lion's Tooth and laid its point on Mycah's cheek below the eye, as the butcher's boy stood trembling. "That was my lady's sister you were hitting, do you know that?" A bright bud of blood blossomed where his sword pressed into Mycah's flesh, and a slow red line trickled down the boy's cheek.

"Stop it!" Arya screamed.

Gotta agree with this, Sansa knew Arya had asked Mycah to play and her testimony would have shot down any notion that Joffery was trying to protect Arya.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Gotta agree with this, Sansa knew Arya had asked Mycah to play and her testimony would have shot down any notion that Joffery was trying to protect Arya.

Yes plus Sansa not only knew the truth she knew Joffery was drunk and acting wild

the boy was telling the truth, but Joffrey was in no mood to listen. The wine had made him wild

[butterbumps!]

I'm not sure on the parts I bolded in your post. I think this is where Sansa's testimony might have helped looking at the text, but this is all speculation since Joffery did not play the "I was being gallant" card.

In what way would this have changed Lady's fate? That Sansa knows Arya had asked Mycah to sword play, she cannot possibly prove that Joffrey knew this too. Joffrey would of course claim he thought Mycah was attacking Arya and merely stopped it.

To add, do you think it would have somehow mollified Cersei to know that Joffrey was attacked by Arya because of a dispute against a peasant? Even if it could be presented in such a way that Joffrey appeared to be a purposeful aggressor against Mycah, how does this absolve Arya from striking Joffrey first? Even if she were not a commoner like Dunk, she is still not supposed to raise a hand to the Crown Prince.

Yes plus Sansa not only knew the truth she knew Joffery was drunk and acting wild

the boy was telling the truth, but Joffrey was in no mood to listen. The wine had made him wild

Again, how does this prove that Joffrey was indisputably of the belief that Arya was not being attacked? Sansa knows this, but she cannot prove that Joffrey understood, which he would assuredly ham up.

I just happen to think it's poorly made. We'll both get over it if you can suffer someone disagreeing with you.

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing, but this is a matter that's pretty clear cut wrt Lady's death specifically, and you said my arguments were poorly made in comparison to some egregious mis interpreted arguments.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Yes, I know Sansa gives Ned the same story, though given the way Arya downplays her culpability at the beginning (“She just bit him a little. He was hurting Mycah.”), we can't be certain that Arya doesn't emphasize or downplay some aspects of this (and I never meant to suggest that Arya outright lies, but exaggerates or downplays potentially).

Actually, I don't think she is downplaying anything by saying that "she just bit him a little". Direwolves are dangerous animals, if it was more than a little, Joffreys hand would be permanently dysfunctional, if it was "a lot", Joffrey would be missing a hand. Arya, at this stage of the story, is extremely naive to calculate what she should say. Adding to that she is also angry, hungry and generally not in the best condition, and sad and ashamed for chassing away Nymeria, I think she 'd just say whatever came to her mind without thinking.

This is still slippery; when Joffrey comes upon the scene, he chastises Mycah for hitting a noble lady. Even though Sansa says she knows Arya well enough to know that Arya would have invited Mycah to play with her, Sansa cannot prove with her testimony that Joffrey wasn't threatening Mycah out of some perceived attempt at protecting Arya. I brought up confirming it wasn't a double attack, because that's specifically the lie Joffrey tells.

(I started to reply, but Elaena Targaryen was there first. Sansa could testify that before Joffrey started, he was told that Myckah was Arya's friend, and that she asked him to...)

I don't think this would have counted as an "attack" at the point in which Arya intervenes. Joffrey could easily play the "I was being gallant and thought he had attacked Arya" trump card. I also don't believe that even if Ned saw this as a true attack on Mycah, a peasant, that most of the court, not least of which, Cersei, would have found this an acceptable reason for Arya to attack Joffrey in response.

By the story Arya says, and Sansa has confirmed to Ned, it counts as an attack. I believe Cersei would not care about who attacked first, she would not even care if Joffrey had killed a peasant just for fun, she would never find absolutely any reason to be acceptable for hitting Joffrey. It's not that she believes her son over Arya, otherwise she would try to discipline him... Arya hit him, that's all she cares to know. She has killed people for less.

[The Prince of Ice]

(I started to reply, but Elaena Targaryen was there first. Sansa could testify that before Joffrey started, he was told that Myckah was Arya's friend, and that she asked him to...)

This, Sansa could say she heard Arya say to Joffery Mycah was her friend and not to hurt him. He did it anyways, If Bob heard this im assuming Lady wouldnt have died then because he would havent had sided with his lying son.

Lady was still doomed but she might have survived longer.

[butterbumps!]

Actually, I don't think she is downplaying anything by saying that "she just bit him a little". Direwolves are dangerous animals, if it was more than a little, Joffreys hand would be permanently dysfunctional, if it was "a lot", Joffrey would be missing a hand. Arya, at this stage of the story, is extremely naive to calculate what she should say. Adding to that she is also angry, hungry and generally not in the best condition, and sad and ashamed for chassing away Nymeria, I think she 'd just say whatever came to her mind without thinking.

No, it's probably snark at Joffrey. She's playing on what Joffrey says about Mycah:

Joffrey at the Trident: “I won’t hurt him … much,”

Arya on trial: “She just bit him a little. He was hurting Mycah.”

(I started to reply, but Elaena Targaryen was there first. Sansa could testify that before Joffrey started, he was told that Myckah was Arya's friend, and that she asked him to...)

What Elaena wrote does not exonerate Arya. There is no way for Sansa to prove that Joffrey understood the relationship between Arya and Mycah. Further, how is the fact that Joffrey was attacked over a peasant going to make Cersei back down? If anything, this would enrage her.

By the story Arya says, and Sansa has confirmed to Ned, it counts as an attack. I believe Cersei would not care about who attacked first, she would not even care if Joffrey had killed a peasant just for fun, she would never find absolutely any reason to be acceptable for hitting Joffrey. It's not that she believes her son over Arya, otherwise she would try to discipline him... Arya hit him, that's all she cares to know. She has killed people for less.

That's my view too. The issue I'm really trying to get at is whether Lady's death is the result of Sansa's lack of testimony. I think that's a closed case. I think the question of whether or not Sansa's lack of testimony helped Arya is debatable (I'm not sure if those arguments have been conflated, but I'm really speaking to the Lady issue). On helping Arya, I don't believe that Sansa's telling the truth would have helped her. I suspect that it may have been a benefit to withhold testimony, but on that aspect only, I think there is room for interpretation.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

This, Sansa could say she heard Arya say to Joffery Mycah was her friend and not to hurt him. He did it anyways, If Bob heard this im assuming Lady wouldnt have died then because he would havent had sided with his lying son.

Lady was still doomed but she might have survived longer.

Unfortunatelly, I don't think it could have done anything to save Lady... Robert hates standing up against Cersei, he would have never done it for an animal... He'd say that wolves are dangerous, wild and uncontrolled and he'd let her be killed.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

This, Sansa could say she heard Arya say to Joffery Mycah was her friend and not to hurt him. He did it anyways, If Bob heard this im assuming Lady wouldnt have died then because he would havent had sided with his lying son.

Lady was still doomed but she might have survived longer.

How much longer would that be? A few minutes?

[The Prince of Ice]

How much longer would that be? A few minutes?

Who knows, somewhere between the Trident and Kings Landing, however long that journey takes.

[The Prince of Ice]

What Elaena wrote does not exonerate Arya. There is no way for Sansa to prove that Joffrey understood the relationship between Arya and Mycah. Further, how is the fact that Joffrey was attacked over a peasant going to make Cersei back down? If anything, this would enrage her.

What do you mean there is no way for Sansa to prove Joffery understood the relationship between Arya and Mycah? One of the first things Arya said to Joffery and Sansa was that Mycah was her friend. Sansa and Joffery heard this so Sansa can prove that Joffery did hear that Mycah was Aryas friend. If im not mistaken a friendship is a relationship right?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

...

What Elaena wrote does not exonerate Arya. There is no way for Sansa to prove that Joffrey understood the relationship between Arya and Mycah. Further, how is the fact that Joffrey was attacked over a peasant going to make Cersei back down? If anything, this would enrage her.

That's my view too. The issue I'm really trying to get at is whether Lady's death is the result of Sansa's lack of testimony. I think that's a closed case. I think the question of whether or not Sansa's lack of testimony helped Arya is debatable (I'm not sure if those arguments have been conflated, but I'm really speaking to the Lady issue). On helping Arya, I don't believe that Sansa's telling the truth would have helped her. I suspect that it may have been a benefit to withhold testimony, but on that aspect only, I think there is room for interpretation.

My argument was about whether Sansa's (lack of) testimony helped Arya... That's what I've been debating, as I agree that Lady stood no chance, no matter what Sansa's testimony was.

[butterbumps!]

What do you mean there is no way for Sansa to prove Joffery understood the relationship between Arya and Mycah? One of the first things Arya said to Joffery and Sansa was that Mycah was her friend. Sansa and Joffery heard this so Sansa can prove that Joffery did hear that Mycah was Aryas friend. If im not mistaken a friendship is a relationship right?

Yes, but how do you prove this? I know they would say that they told him, but Sansa also notes that Joffrey is drunk and not listening. The truth includes this fact, and it's a situation that could be very easily chalked up to a miscommunication.

My argument was about whether Sansa's (lack of) testimony helped Arya... That's what I've been debating, as I agree that Lady stood no chance, no matter what Sansa's testimony was.

Ah, ok, I thought so. I don't believe that Sansa's telling the truth would have helped Arya. I think as long as Cersei is presiding over this, any confirmation that Arya struck Joffrey and of direwolf intervention would have resulted in Cersei's trying to apply the maximum sentencing of Arya (though I doubt Robert would have allowed much punishment of Arya anyway). I think Cersei is the critical variable to this end, not Sansa and not the truth. But I agree that whether or not Sansa's silence helps Arya is debatable.

[The Prince of Ice]

Yes, but how do you prove this? I know they would say that they told him, but Sansa also notes that Joffrey is drunk and not listening. The truth includes this fact, and it's a situation that could be very easily chalked up to a miscommunication.

Your right it would be a he said she said situation and Joffery could pull the i was intoxicated card and it would be chocked up to miscomunnication

I agree with this

However if Sansa and Aryas stories matched up it would be of less of a he said she said situation cause the majority would be on Aryas side.

Especially if Arya and Sansa both said that Arya said Mycah was her friend to Joffery.

Still no factual proof just what the kids said.