Did Sansa Lose Lady Because of Lying to Arya

[Dr. Pepper]

People defend Sansa the same way they defend Catelyn. Nothing is ever their fault. Ever. Tiresome.

No, I see it constantly. The 3 characters protected on this forum are Catelyn, Sansa, and Stannis. You obviously fall into one of those character's corners if not more, so I can't take any opinion you have on the matter seriously and I have not and will not. Thanks for playing.

If you find it so tiresome, why not just go away and take a nap? Or better yet, consider the opinions of those who care to argue and then present your rebuttal in an intelligent way. No need to wade through a pit of snakes or douse yourself in wildfire if it bothers you so.

[The Prince of Ice]

Sansa and Catelyn deserve protection, due to the amount of stupid, misogynistic and ignorant hate that comes their way. Same thing for Dany.

Agree with this, those three get a lot of hate. Very unecesary unreasonable hate that deserves to be confronted.

I swear when people say Daenerys shouldnt have ended the slave trade because of how would effect the area economically i just wanna...... :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Same thing when people criticize Cat for JingleBell. Sansa is obvious-blamed for Neds death(makes no sense)

[butterbumps!]

No, I see it constantly. The 3 characters protected on this forum are Catelyn, Sansa, and Stannis. You obviously fall into one of those character's corners if not more, so I can't take any opinion you have on the matter seriously and I have not and will not. Thanks for playing.

Yes, and your opinion is utterly critical, given that you have clearly not read this thread to figure out that only one issue in which Sansa is involved is under discussion, and therefore is not a categorical exoneration of her character at large based on liking her.

You'd be hard pressed to find evidence that I've excused all of Sansa or Cat's actions. Finding such proof will be even more of a challenge for you given your apparent failure to actually read posts.

Awesome, though, that actually giving support for specific actions by characters makes one an irrational defender, lost to reason in your mind.

ETA

Thats a good way to deal with bias but at the same time its gonna be detrimental to your conversations on this forum. Better to listen to someones opinions and see how they back them instead of just putting them in a box that your not going to listen to all because of their favorite character at that. just a bit ignorant if i dont say so myself.

This is really nice of you, considering how much we went at it in here, lol. Thanks for that.

[The Prince of Ice]

If you find it so tiresome, why not just go away and take a nap? Or better yet, consider the opinions of those who care to argue and then present your rebuttal in an intelligent way. No need to wade through a pit of snakes or douse yourself in wildfire if it bothers you so.

:agree: Once Again another brilliant post from Dr. Pepper, if peoples opinions on some fairy tales bother you that much than why are you on this forum anyways?

[Kittykatknits]

People defend Sansa the same way they defend Catelyn. Nothing is ever their fault. Ever. Tiresome.

Ah, the last defense of those without an argument: attacking the poster rather than what they are saying.

Tiresome indeed.

[The Prince of Ice]

Ah, the last defense of those without an argument: attacking the poster rather than what they are saying.

Tiresome indeed.

The last words of an ignorant and lonely soul.

[UVA]

Ah, the last defense of those without an argument: attacking the poster rather than what they are saying.

Is this not the first rule of online forum cocksuckery?

[The Night's Prince]

LOL hive mind mentality at work. You wonder why people lurk all the time.

[Lykos]

Are you really trying to say Sansa didn't lie? :bs: It was obvious she knew the situation and REMEMBERED what happened in said situation. Im not saying Lady could have been spared, she was doomed form the get go.

However if you try and say she didn't lie that's just ignorance.

In the real world if someone asks you if you know something and you do, and you say you dont remember that is a lie, i don't know your definition of lying though. :dunno:

Have you read the passage I quoted? Sansa didn´t get a chance to lie! She could never finish the sentence to tell exactly what she doesn´t remember, what she didn´t see! And everything happened very fast, there was no lie in her statement.

Now I´m fairly certain that she would have presented what happened in a way that Arya (or some posters) would consider a lie because she is torn between two loyalties towards her future husband (who had just been publically ridiculed by Renly) and her sister, who she knew to be in grave danger since she witnessed her father hardly sleeping for the last four days.

From the way Sansa pleaded for Ned we can infer that Sansa was going to try to appease Joffrey and Cersei (not that I think that she had a chance to succeed) and find reasonable a excuse for Arya´s attack that didn´t infuriate Joffrey any further. A near impossible task without resorting to omissions and twisting the events.

The main point is that we are not told what Sansa would have said had Arya given her a chance. Posters (not you thankfully) have been using the reasoning that we couldn´t know whether Cersei would have killed Lady, if Sansa had given the truth. I say Cersei would have reacted even worse had Sansa given a statement that Arya had accepted as truth.

I don´t blame Arya for her reaction, I blame Ned for not knowing this would happen. He should have known that Arya wouldn´t understand that Sansa was trying to help her as much as giving Joffrey a chance to save his face in public, which was made extremely hard thanks to Renly. Sansa was very well prepared for this show, though not for happining so sudden (and for Renly), Arya was not, she had been fleeing for four days and had no mind and understanding for courtly behaviour or diplomacy.

[butterbumps!]

LOL hive mind mentality at work. You wonder why people lurk all the time.

Look, you came into a thread for no purpose other than to antagonize posters who have given arguments in support of Sansa on this issue. You had clearly not read any of these arguments, yet chose to summarily try to discredit any position arguing for Sansa's exoneration based on nothing but your own preconceived impression of the issue (and not even the issue at stake, apparently, but the mere fact that Sansa is being defended in some capacity).

I hope the irony of this isn't lost on you: I'm an "unreliable poster" because I "categorically" defend Sansa (allegedly), yet you are somehow more reliable because you make blanket statements without foundation about other posters?

It's clear you were trying to antagonize without having to give arguments, but go ahead and pretend you were bravely standing up to the oppressively irrational Sansa dictatorship if it helps assuage your obvious blunder.

[The Prince of Ice]

Have you read the passage I quoted? Sansa didn´t get a chance to lie! She could never finish the sentence to tell exactly what she doesn´t remember, what she didn´t see! And everything happened very fast, there was no lie in her statement.

Now I´m fairly certain that she would have presented what happened in a way that Arya (or some posters) would consider a lie because she is torn between two loyalties towards her future husband (who had just been publically ridiculed by Renly) and her sister, who she knew to be in grave danger since she witnessed her father hardly sleeping for the last four days.

From the way Sansa pleaded for Ned we can infer that Sansa was going to try to appease Joffrey and Cersei (not that I think that she had a chance to succeed) and find reasonable a excuse for Arya´s attack that didn´t infuriate Joffrey any further. A near impossible task without resorting to omissions and twisting the events.

The main point is that we are not told what Sansa would have said had Arya given her a chance. Posters (not you thankfully) have been using the reasoning that we couldn´t know whether Cersei would have killed Lady, if Sansa had given the truth. I say Cersei would have reacted even worse had Sansa given a statement that Arya had accepted as truth.

I don´t blame Arya for her reaction, I blame Ned for not knowing this would happen. He should have known that Arya wouldn´t understand that Sansa was trying to help her as much as giving Joffrey a chance to save his face in public, which was made extremely hard thanks to Renly. Sansa was very well prepared for this show, though not for happining so sudden (and for Renly), Arya was not, she had been fleeing for four days and had no mind and understanding for courtly behaviour or diplomacy.

Sansa never had a chance to finish but are you really trying to say that just because Arya didnt let her finish she didnt lie? Me and you both know when she said i dont remember she meant the Mycah situation.

So she lied. I dont blame Arya for her reaction either, Lady was also doomed from the start. I blame Cersei and Bob in this situation most, Cersei just being an evil bitch and Bob not standing up to his evil bitch of a wife when she wants to kill an innocent Direwolf.

[Summerqueen]

LOL hive mind mentality at work. You wonder why people lurk all the time.

Well, when your dog only comes into a room to shit on the floor, maybe you stop inviting him into the room.

[Janicia]

Sansa and Catelyn deserve protection, due to the amount of stupid, misogynistic and ignorant hate that comes their way. Same thing for Dany.

And Cersei. :P A calmer, more empathetic woman might have insisted on sending Lady back to Winterfell instead of insisting on Lady's death, but it would have been entirely negligent of Cersei as a mother to let the Starks bring any direwolves to live with the royal family in a crowded urban castle. Arya's explanation that Nymeria could have done much worse things to Joffrey is ... hardly reassuring ...

If Cersei knows how bad Joffrey is, she knows that he'll make Sansa's life hellish and that her wolf will maul him. If Cersei doesn't know how bad Joffrey is, she has valid concerns about the direwolf mauling her smaller children.

[Le Cygne]

If Cersei knows how bad Joffrey is, she knows that he'll make Sansa's life hellish and that her wolf will maul him. If Cersei doesn't know how bad Joffrey is, she has valid concerns about the direwolf mauling her smaller children.

Which again supports that Lady dying had nothing to do with Sansa. Cersei was protecting Joffrey by elminiating the direwolf threat.

If there was any message the story was telling, it was that the betrothal to Joffrey set Sansa up for a situation where she would be without a protector, and the foreshadowing in the scene would be here, that she'll have someone else to protect her there:

The king was in no mood for more argument. “Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she’ll be happier for it.”

[Joant9922]

I think that viewing it from the point of view of karma is misingenious. It is not like some cosmic karmic energy said: "Sansa lied. Punishment: dead direwolf".

It is more about actions & consequences. Any action, good or bad, has possible consequences that we must then accept and deal with. These consequences could be utterly unfair...or maybe we are in a situation in which any consequence would be detrimental. But there it is.

Sansa lied. Let's not go out of our way thinking about convoluted explanations and justifications. She lied. Do I blame her? Does this make her a bad person? Does this make her someone who deserves to have her direwolf killed? No. Not at all. Sansa was a kid. A kid put in an impossible situation between her dad & sister and prince/fiance & future mother-in-law. Saying she didn't remember was kind of like going into a fetal position when you are scared and don't know what to do. People compare her to Arya who is all "Joffrey is a liar!" and doesn't hold her tongue. But the difference is that Arya is too much of a kid to understand how this world works, and too much of a kid to really read the situation and think before saying anything. It is like the small child who is utterly shameless and goes up to a fat guy and calls him fat to his face.

And who is to say that had Sansa actually sided with Arya, Cersei would not have at least attempted to have Lady killed anyway, if for no other reason that she is concerned about something like this happening again to her son again?

Lady died because Cersei is an evil, spiteful, scheming person. Cersei just wanted to be cruel for cruelty's sake. Maybe there was also the fact that, like someone said earlier, she didn't want Lady around to protect Sansa in case Joffrey hurt her, but I think that would be thinking too far ahead, and I don't give Cersei that much credit. A reasonable person would have maybe demanded that Lady not travel with Sansa to King's Landing (someone before said this too), as a sensible, mature option. A reasonable person would have thought that anything more would be like going out of your way to create animosity that was not necessary at the moment.

I think the whole incident is more a symbolic representation of what would happen to Sansa later on at King's Landing, while in the "den of the lions", so to speak.

[mrunderhill]

I keep reading that Sansa was put in an 'impossible' situation. When your little sister has been missing for 4 days, has been living on berries and then is being questioned for a crime; most people would support her. That's what older sisters usually do.

[butterbumps!]

I keep reading that Sansa was put in an 'impossible' situation. When your little sister has been missing for 4 days, has been living on berries and then is being questioned for a crime; most people would support her. That's what older sisters usually do.

That's a different issue than whether Lady was killed as a direct result of Sansa's actions.

But on Sansa's "impossible choice": The problem is that you expect Sansa to testify against her future family, a future family who, incidentally, wields nearly absolute power to do as they choose. Exposing Joffrey to be a liar wouldn't help Arya in the trial (he was still attacked), and it would only serve to make Cersei and Joffrey more vindictive.

I agree that the instinct for most older sisters would be to side with their sister, but most of us haven't been put in such a precarious position between families like this. And Sansa's lie was simply to say "I don't remember," that is, she did not side with Joffrey.

If Sansa's behavior seems abnormal, I suppose I should ask what Ned was thinking? Surely, if "most older sisters would stand up for their sister," certainly most fathers would see this incident as ample reason to send their daughters back to Winterfell? Barring returning the girls, certainly Ned could have told Robert he killed Lady, but in reality, sent one of his household guards to ride hard with her back to Winterfell?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I keep reading that Sansa was put in an 'impossible' situation. When your little sister has been missing for 4 days, has been living on berries and then is being questioned for a crime; most people would support her. That's what older sisters usually do.

Sansa would easily have supported her sister if this event had happened in a vacuum. If she didn't have any other factors to account for, all of which have been described above. In the final analysis, it wasn't such a simple, cut-and-dried, black-or-white situation as you seem to think it was. It was fraught with ambiguity and complexity, none of which you are accounting for in your arguments.

[Woman of War]

I keep reading that Sansa was put in an 'impossible' situation. When your little sister has been missing for 4 days, has been living on berries and then is being questioned for a crime; most people would support her. That's what older sisters usually do.

This exactly was my very first emotion when I read the chapter and no sophisticated arguing about why Sansa had to..... and what Ned should have done instead.... can sweep away that very first impression. I have two children and at times they fought until drawing blood but when one was threatened by an outsider they stuck together like one. Sansa's reaction is alien to me and for sure she did not have all those little lawyers' tricks in mind as excuse some are considering here. This does not turn a child into someone evil, she is only a litle girl who by now has learned a lot but she certainly can be mean and selfish.

[RedBean]

I keep reading that Sansa was put in an 'impossible' situation. When your little sister has been missing for 4 days, has been living on berries and then is being questioned for a crime; most people would support her. That's what older sisters usually do.

She was eleven years old, though. If you're that young and you're confronted by the Royal family (who you're going to be marrying into), then you'll probably be too scared to shoot off your mouth.

If Sansa's behavior seems abnormal, I suppose I should ask what Ned was thinking? Surely, if "most older sisters would stand up for their sister," certainly most fathers would see this incident as ample reason to send their daughters back to Winterfell? Barring returning the girls, certainly Ned could have told Robert he killed Lady, but in reality, sent one of his household guards to ride hard with her back to Winterfell?

I was actually expecting Ned to go against Robert's wishes when I first read about this. I know that Ned is very honourable and kind, and he's probably one of the kindest characters in the series. But I do think that sometimes his honour prevents him from doing the right thing. I mean, if it was Robert who was supposed to kill the wolf, he would probably have just lied about the wolf being dead, and set it free in the woods somewhere.