Did Sansa Lose Lady Because of Lying to Arya

[Ser Not Appearing]

The King told Sansa not to lie. This carries the inherent suggestion that supporting one or the other would matter. Certainly supporting Joffrey might bring greater harm to Arya, but what about supporting Arya? That's also in the text.

Sansa was asked by her father to tell the truth (that he knew would support Arya). It was only a result of her father's prompting, actually, that led to her speaking to the King in the first place. This shows that Ned wanted to ensure her corroborating story would be told. Before Sansa's testimony we have the same scenario of he said / she said that led Robert to walk away from the matter. Clearly Ned didn't want it to end as he said / she said. Since he wanted her to testify, this inherently proves his belief that supporting Arya's story would matter.

The King showed that Sansa's testimony mattered. Nobody has argued against the suggestion that lying in support of Joffrey would matter and Ned's actions prove that he believes telling the truth would benefit Arya.

If you think the King would suffer consequences to anyone after his son was publicly proved a liar, that's your right. I think you're wrong. It's my opinion that Twizz and MrUnderhill have been pretty spot on throughout most of this thread. The arguments against as largely faulty logic or imputed opinion and grand extrapolation. I have, however, been known to be wrong. Frequently.

[butterbumps!]

I'm really not defending the troll here, that was way to extreme, but there really are a few times where Sansa was mean towards Arya. (Now Arya was mean towards Sansa too but that was not the issue here)

There's a similar list where Arya thinks/ says nasty things/ throws blood oranges at Sansa. I agree with your other points, though. I think the two sisters wished the other was different. I think, however, that Sansa's thoughts about Arya in this chapter are actually quite sad. She feels jealous that Arya prefers the company of freeriders and commoners to hers, and is jealous that Ned rewards Arya's mischief. I think Sansa was very lonely.

[mrunderhill]

^This

Remember Robert liked to go back to his younger days and thus believes himself to be a hero and heroes don't beat their wives thus he couldn't do it in public.

No it was fear of being killed more than looking like a thug, which held him back more. The second Jaime is way he has no problem hiting Cersei in the face. In their long marriage Cersei has angered Robert a lot more such as when she threatened to kill his daughter, but he never struck her face.

[Mladen]

Keeping her mouth shut leaves Robert in the same situation as before she testified and the result would have been the same. Ned however thinks Sansa telling the truth would offer something different. She doesn't do this. She doesn't stand up for her sister.

Yes, but what Ned thinks and what objectively would happen are 2 different things. He idolized Robert, most likely, he thought that it would make a difference, but we saw that no one cared about Mycah, as generally no one cared about commoners. Ned thought truth might have helped Arya, but the fact is, with angry Cersei and the actual truth in which Arya did hit him first, there is no other way than to say that Sansa here, unintenionally, by pleading the 5th, basically saved Arya's ass.

[bloodofwinterfell]

I don't think it's Sansa's fault Lady died. No matter what the outcome of the trial was, Cersei wanted blood. That's who the blame lies with (and also Robert for not standing up to her). Blaming Sansa for her direwolf's death seems to be pushing it a little - there is no denying that she lied (out of fear of angering her betrothed and future king, which was probably a difficult situation for someone as obedient as Sansa) but I'm not sure her testimony would have changed Cersei's mind.

And anyway, I personally believe Lady's death paid for Bran's life and wasn't "karma" for Sansa failing to stick up for her sister.

[Mladen]

I was just saying he could do it, i said in my post above he most likely wouldnt do it just to clear things up.

However Jaime would have probably killed him for it though if Cersei doesn't stop him again.

Well, everyone can do anything, but I sincerely doubt Robert could do that so easily. No, he couldn't hit his wife in front of entire court. He is not Joffrey.

[The Prince of Ice]

The King told Sansa not to lie. This carries the inherent suggestion that supporting one or the other would matter. Certainly supporting Joffrey might bring greater harm to Arya, but what about supporting Arya? That's also in the text.

Sansa was asked by her father to tell the truth (that he knew would support Arya). It was only a result of her father's prompting, actually, that led to her speaking to the King in the first place. This shows that Ned wanted to ensure her corroborating story would be told. Before Sansa's testimony we have the same scenario of he said / she said that led Robert to walk away from the matter. Clearly Ned didn't want it to end as he said / she said. Since he wanted her to testify, this inherently proves his belief that supporting Arya's story would matter.

The King showed that Sansa's testimony mattered. Nobody has argued against the suggestion that lying in support of Joffrey would matter and Ned's actions prove that he believes telling the truth would benefit Arya.

If you think the King would suffer consequences to anyone after his son was publicly proved a liar, that's your right. I think you're wrong. It's my opinion that Twizz and MrUnderhill have been pretty spot on throughout most of this thread. The arguments against as largely faulty logic or imputed opinion and grand extrapolation. I have, however, been known to be wrong. Frequently.

Thank you for this post Ser Not Appearing i agree fully, im still inclined to think if Joff was proven a liar no consequences would be given to Arya or Lady.

However Lady would have died someway after that through Cersei somehow on the way to Kings Landing. Lady had to die for the plot. As did Nymeria being run off.

[Minsc]

No it was fear of being killed more than looking like a thug, which held him back more. The second Jaime is way he has no problem hiting Cersei in the face. In their long marriage Cersei has angered Robert a lot more such as when she threatened to kill his daughter, but he never struck her face.

Robert immediately admits shame to Ned about his hitting of Cersei during that scene. Simply, he might have feared being killed but he also wanted to present himself as a hero thus he hide his beatings.

[The Prince of Ice]

The King told Sansa not to lie. This carries the inherent suggestion that supporting one or the other would matter. Certainly supporting Joffrey might bring greater harm to Arya, but what about supporting Arya? That's also in the text.

Sansa was asked by her father to tell the truth (that he knew would support Arya). It was only a result of her father's prompting, actually, that led to her speaking to the King in the first place. This shows that Ned wanted to ensure her corroborating story would be told. Before Sansa's testimony we have the same scenario of he said / she said that led Robert to walk away from the matter. Clearly Ned didn't want it to end as he said / she said. Since he wanted her to testify, this inherently proves his belief that supporting Arya's story would matter.

The King showed that Sansa's testimony mattered. Nobody has argued against the suggestion that lying in support of Joffrey would matter and Ned's actions prove that he believes telling the truth would benefit Arya.

If you think the King would suffer consequences to anyone after his son was publicly proved a liar, that's your right. I think you're wrong. It's my opinion that Twizz and MrUnderhill have been pretty spot on throughout most of this thread. The arguments against as largely faulty logic or imputed opinion and grand extrapolation. I have, however, been known to be wrong. Frequently.

Random double post.

[butterbumps!]

The King told Sansa not to lie. This carries the inherent suggestion that supporting one or the other would matter. Certainly supporting Joffrey might bring greater harm to Arya, but what about supporting Arya? That's also in the text.

Did Robert care about the truth when Cersei badgered him to punish a wolf? This is after Robert already threw the case out of court for insufficient evidence of the attack portion, not the wolf portion, which is damning either way.

Sansa was asked by her father to tell the truth (that he knew would support Arya).

Ned miscalculated this. Just because Ned believes the truth will help Arya does not mean it's the case. If Sansa confessed to Arya attacking first, Cersei would have been out for blood.

It was only a result of her father's prompting, actually, that led to her speaking to the King in the first place. This shows that Ned wanted to ensure her corroborating story would be told. Before Sansa's testimony we have the same scenario of he said / she said that led Robert to walk away from the matter. Clearly Ned didn't want it to end as he said / she said. Since he wanted her to testify, this inherently proves his belief that supporting Arya's story would matter.

Yes, Ned is naive. After looking at it again, he really seems to misjudge Robert's ability to stand up to Cersei. The truth would have only confirmed that Arya struck the Corwn Prince first.

The King showed that Sansa's testimony mattered.

No it didn't. The king had already made his verdict: “So he will. Perhaps they will teach him a lesson. Ned, see that your daughter is disciplined. I will do the same with my son.”

It is then that Cersei brings up the wolf. No matter what, Cersei was going to have a wolf pelt. If this is not the obvious conclusion, what do you make of Arya's throwing rocks at Nym to send her away? Arya even states that she knew Nymeria would be killed no matter what: "I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so ’shamed, but it was right, wasn’t it? The queen would have killed her.”

If you think the King would suffer consequences to anyone after his son was proved a liar publicly, that's your right. I think you're wrong.

Exposing Joffrey as a liar would have only made Cersei more determined to punish the Starks. And it doesn't seem like Joffrey lied that much-- only about both Arya and Mycah attacking him together. The truth-- that Arya attacked him first-- is still punishable, even with Joffrey's lie. Not to mention, the idea that Arya's direwolf is dangerous.

[The Prince of Ice]

Well, everyone can do anything, but I sincerely doubt Robert could do that so easily. No, he couldn't hit his wife in front of entire court. He is not Joffrey.

Agreed he is not Joffery and he probably wouldnt have done it in public especially.

[Janicia]

Having the son she had, Cersei was right to demand Lady's death. She knows that Joffrey will bully Sansa (and worse). She's already seen Joffrey bitten once by a direwolf for bullying a Stark girl. Joffrey being attacked by a direwolf again was a near certainty so long as Sansa had a direwolf.

If Sansa had brought Lady to Kings Landing, Lady would either have rotted away in some dungeon or been killed after doing something bad to Joffrey or a member of the Kingsguard. Joffrey might have done something horrible to her with his crossbow. There was no good future for Lady from the moment Sansa was engaged to Joffrey. Ned and Catelyn should have realized that bringing direwolves to Kings Landing was incredibly stupid. Cersei is a heartless bitch in this incident, but she's actually the only person thinking like an adult.

Frankly, Sansa was lucky to lose Lady under those circumstances, while her father was able to somewhat mitigate the loss. Lady could have gotten prisoner Sansa killed. Alternatively, losing Lady after losing Ned would have utterly devastated Sansa.

[butterbumps!]

I think you're wrong. It's my opinion that Twizz and MrUnderhill have been pretty spot on throughout most of this thread. The arguments against as largely faulty logic or imputed opinion and grand extrapolation. I have, however, been known to be wrong. Frequently.

:lmao: faulty logic indeed.

[Mladen]

:lmao: faulty logic indeed.

My God, butterbumps, how could we be so stubborn and so wrong in our 'imputed opinions and grand extrapolation'? Shame on us...

[Knight Of Winter]

I'd like to raise a point here - Sansa gets to testify only after Joffrey and Arya told their versions of what happened. Joffrey told up some tale about some Mycah and Arya attacked him unprovoked, while Arya (presumably) told the truth. In short, it's obvious from both Joff's and Arya's story that Arya attacked Joff first.

So, what could have Sansa told Robert that would further un-help Arya's case, barring outright lying? Robert already knows Arya attacked Joffrey first. I'm interested in people's opinion on this.

Some posters here claimed Robert was the main culprit for whole trial leading to Lady's death, and I agree with it. There's so many things he could have done better that irresponsible king doesn't even begin to describe it.

[bbstark]

No, because if Sansa had told the truth then Arya would still not have commanded Nymeria to attack (not including their magical bond). Nymeria jumping in to defend her mistress being attacked by a boy with sword, would help Arya much, much more than silence.

That doesn't matter for Arya or Nymeria. Nymeria would have been on the chopping block either way, with or without Sansa's testimony.

We know this from Arya chasing Nymeria away ( before she is caught) and Ned corroborating that she did the right thing. They predicted that the truth (That Joff was attacking Arya) would not save the wolf.

Also, Cersei's misguided sense of justice should be taken into account. Arya standing alone without anyone to corroborate her side of the story is not intimidating to her, it can be dismissed as a lie. However someone confirming Arya's side would put Joff into a confirmed position as a 'coward', and wound their collective lion's pride. She'd be livid with vengeance. Sansa's silence ended the game with a stalemate.

[butterbumps!]

I'd like to raise a point here - Sansa gets to testify only after Joffrey and Arya told their versions of what happened. Joffrey told up some tale about some Mycah and Arya attacked him unprovoked, while Arya (presumably) told the truth. In short, it's obvious from both Joff's and Arya's story that Arya attacked Joff first.

We don't know if Arya admitted to attacking Joffrey first. Joffrey hadn't attacked Mycah truly-- he threatened him with a sword at his throat, and then Arya hits him in the head. Arya may have downplayed her aggression in the version she told-- we simply do not know. It's not clear that it's clear Arya was said to be the first attacker, and in truth, Joffrey doesn't full-on attack Mycah.

So, what could have Sansa told Robert that would further un-help Arya's case, barring outright lying? Robert already knows Arya attacked Joffrey first. I'm interested in people's opinion on this.

Again, it's not clear whether Arya owned up to striking Joffrey first, whether she accused Joffrey of attacking Mycah, or how much Nymeria attacked Joffrey. The straight-forward course of events-- true confirmation of Arya's first attack and the severity of Nym's attack-- would have likely inspired Cersei to appeal to a verdict that followed the letter of the law, which is not in Arya's favor.

Some posters here claimed Robert was the main culprit for whole trial leading to Lady's death, and I agree with it. There's so many things he could have done better that irresponsible king doesn't even begin to describe it.

100% agree.

[Lala]

I'm not sure, but I feel like it might be important to note that Joffrey could very well have turned around and said that he "thought" Arya was being attacked by Mycah. It's what he at least facetiously said when he had the sword pointed at Mycah's throat.

Either way~ I still think the whole trial scenario was more Martin exhibiting Robert's incompetence and Cersei's irrational ruthlessness than making any significant judgement on Sansa's character.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I confused myself. Robert calls the court and puts Arya on the stand before Ned is even summoned; Ned says, “Find Sansa and bring her to the audience chamber. Her voice may be needed.”

This is what's being tried, specifically: "This girl of yours attacked my son. Her and her butcher’s boy. That animal of hers tried to tear his arm off.” Arya is specifically being tried for Nymeria's attack on Joffrey.

Then there's this: “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”

We don't actually see Joffrey's full testimony OR Arya's, so we don't know what versions of the stories they told. It seems Joffrey told them earlier that both Mycah and Arya attacked him: “Joff told us what happened,” the queen said. “You and the butcher boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him.”

But the issue Arya is specifically tried for is the wolf biting Joffrey, as per the charges brought forward. IF Ned truly expected a full testimony from Sansa, then it seems the point he thought should be clarified is whether Arya and Mycah both instigated an attack on Joffrey together. Ned frequently underestimates Cersei's capacity for cruelty, and would not have expected Robert to cave in to Cersei's request to have a wolf killed. The wolf was always going to be killed, though, as per the fact that this "dangerous beast" had participated in an assault on Joffrey.

(This is not a reply to the above particular post, but to the claim -from various posters- that Sansa's lie actually helped Arya. The post is quoted because it helps me as a reference)

While I agree that Lady was going to be killed anyway, irrelevently of what Sansa might have said, I believe it is wrong to say that Sansa's "testimony" was going to help Arya in any way. Arya herself told the whole story, and I believe that the text parts in the quoted post prove that we actually know that she said the same version that Sansa told to Ned: Ned is there and listens to Arya's story, and he knows that she is telling the truth, because he had heard the same version of events from Sansa.

Also, the way I understand it, he was not expecting her to clarify "whether Arya and Mycah both instigated an attack on Joffrey together", he was expecting her to confirm that Joffrey attacked Myckah first and started the whole event without any provocation. Ned was expecting that the person he thought Robert was, would never punish his daughter for this, he'd rather be worried for his son's behaviour. Ned also believed that whatever Cersei might demand in her fury, Robert would be the one to decide on the matter (poor Ned...)

So, Sansa's "I don't remember" was not hiding any aggravating evidence against Arya, nor was this Sansa's intention. The reason was that she did not want any part in this (I don't blame her). Again, it did not play any part in Arya's punishement (or lack of), as it played no part in Lady's death. Cersei was out for blood, she would be any way no matter what. Cersei did not need any confirmation (nor contradiction) of Arya's actions to demand her blood, like she didn't care if Lady was or wasn't the one who bite Joffrey to have her killed.

Would it matter if she had told the truth? My opinion is that it would matter, to her. Admitting publically that Joffrey is a liar, and a saddist, hearing herself saying it, would have protected her from wanting him again, from trusting him and Cersei.

---------

We don't know if Arya admitted to attacking Joffrey first. Joffrey hadn't attacked Mycah truly-- he threatened him with a sword at his throat, and then Arya hits him in the head. Arya may have downplayed her aggression in the version she told-- we simply do not know. It's not clear that it's clear Arya was said to be the first attacker, and in truth, Joffrey doesn't full-on attack Mycah.

...

He cut him enough to bleed... In my book, this is an attack, not a threat.

[N/A]

Martin grew up during the 60s, with all the Eastern philosophy that was floating around back then. Unfamiliar with Karma? Crap, Lennon wrote a song "Instant Karma". You know who Lennon is, right?

Or were you kidding? Hard to tell.

kidding, i don't understand why i'm so hard to get when i'm trying to be obvious