Elia of Dorne: Princess, Sister, Wife, and Mother

[David Selig]

Catelyn's feelings towards Jon was a personality flaw in Catelyn. It wasn't an example of standard behavior. Cersei paranoia is of a personality flaw in Cersei. It wasn't an example of standard behavior. Most normal people don't think about children growing up and killing them in the future. It's irrational.

Maybe once the child is older and you get to know them. Perhaps you see them drowning a puppy. You might think..."wow, this kid might totally kill me". Then you do something about it. Judging someone before they even have a personality is stupid and irrational. It's not strategic planning ahead. Regardless of if you're currently in reign or not. It's just not something people typically think about.

Most people aren't part of a cutthroat system where birth is everything and murders and even wars over inheritance matters happen quite often. For a noble in a society like Westeros it's completely rational to think about such things.

[Lala]

Most people aren't part of a cutthroat system where birth is everything and murders and even wars over inheritance matters happen quite often. For a noble in a society like Westeros it's completely rational to think about such things.

We're not arguing that it's irrational for Cat to feel some measure of concern - the argument is that Cat's behavior to Jon stemming from that concern and her jealousy over this "other woman" is a character flaw. There is nothing wrong with this - it doesn't change the fact that Cat is an amazing woman whom I warmly admire - it simply makes her human - she's not a superwoman who is perfect and correct in all things.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

I don't understand why Jon's birth would result in him "supplanting" Aegon and Rhaenys in succession. Wouldn't it make more sense that he intended both his sons (Jon and Aegon) to marry Rhaenys and the three of them rule together? Of course, Rhaegar wasn't psychic (as far as I know). It's equally as likely that Lyanna's child would be female.

Assuming the "dragon has three heads" is something Rhaegar actually said and not something Dany just hallucinated. What I gathered from Rhaegar's comments about TPwP; he considered Aegon TPwP but realized that Aegon couldn't/shouldn't do [it] alone. Which might mean 3 "dragons" working together as one like Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters.

If so, Aegon, Rhaenys, and Lyanna's child would have been raised with the intention marrying each other and ruling together. There wouldn't be much incentive for them to displace each other and not much of a threat to Elia's children. Not sure if there can be 2 kings but like I mentioned before, there's no reason they would assume that the child wouldn't be female.

Honestly, I think the person most in danger could be Lyanna not Elia. After having her child, she would technically no longer be needed. We can say Rhaegar chose her because he loved her or not, doesn't really matter. Rhaegar comes across as being more baby crazy than lustful, surprisingly enough.

It seems that Lyanna was in a much more vulnerable position than Elia. Lyanna could easily have been a blood sacrifice. Her life in *exchange* for that of TPwPs. I don't mean "exchange" but similar to the blood magic that woke Dany's dragons or to the death(s) that heralded the birth of Rhaegar himself. (I can't think of a better word)

If we're saying the kingsguards were at the ToJ to protect the heir to the throne, that means their duty is to the child not Lyanna. Honestly, keeping an extremely pregnant young woman holed up *alone*(maybe/maybe not) in the middle of nowhere that close to her due date doesn't show a lot of concern for the mother's well-being. Though I suppose there's not much that could be done either way.

But if theories are to be believed, at the ToJ were 3 kingsguards and a wet-nurse. Who's to say that there was any intention of Lyanna getting out of there alive? The wet-nurse could care for the child until they returned to KL. Could Lyanna be NN?

Yes, hats off to you - the blood sacrifice theory is excellent, and I am in agreement that Lyanna and Elia could equally be as vulnerable as each other.

As to whether Jon would supplant Aegon in the line of succession would depend on what Rhaegar believed the PtwP actually meant - if it means three different people (as was the case with Aegon the Conqueror and his two sisters), then clearly the notion of having Rhaenys, Aegon and Jon together would fit, but if we are talking about one person with three different facets and Rhaegar wants only the PtwP to succeed, then Jon would need to take precedence. I find it highly significant that he mentions "changes" (in the plural sense) to Jaime Lannister before the Battle of Trident takes place.

Even though I find it hard to see Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna all playing happy families at Kings Landing (without at least a dose of Stark-Martell political angst), you make some valid points.

However, I am sure that I have read that the Targeryans renounced polygamy when they converted to the Faith of the Seven, on condition that they could continue to practice incest. Is this correct?

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

However, I am sure that I have read that the Targeryans renounced polygamy when they converted to the Faith of the Seven, on condition that they could continue to practice incest. Is this correct?

Hmm.. I don't believe so. Aegon converted for political reasons before landing. After that, I think the degree House Targaryen followed the Seven would be comparable to that of any other conquering nation. some may be more devout than others. However; In the eyes of the faith, incest would be worse than polygamy. The faith not "approving" wouldn't be enough to stop them.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

However, I am sure that I have read that the Targeryans renounced polygamy when they converted to the Faith of the Seven, on condition that they could continue to practice incest. Is this correct?

No, this is incorrect. The Targaryens continued to practice both incest and polygamy as it suited them.

[Kuther2000]

I think it is more of they stopped doing it so no one felt the need to comment on it anymore. It has been said that the Targaryens could get away with a crapload of stuff when they had dragons than when they didn't.

How many lords would actually agree to it? I mean what lord would want to give their daughter to be married to the king when the king already has two other wives and 5 sons. His grandchildren will never have any chance at the throne unless a catastrophe happened. Especially when there is a nice Great Lord's heir who she can have and their son will be a ruling Lord.

Sorry to get off subject this thread isn't about polygamy but Elia, Princess of Dorne.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

How many lords would actually agree to it? I mean what lord would want to give their daughter to be married to the king when the king already has two other wives and 5 sons.

Especially, a Lord of Dorne (from what we know of them up until now).

NB - I'll leave it there I think, for fear of derailing this topic!

[J. Stargaryen]

I think it is more of they stopped doing it so no one felt the need to comment on it anymore. It has been said that the Targaryens could get away with a crapload of stuff when they had dragons than when they didn't.

How many lords would actually agree to it? I mean what lord would want to give their daughter to be married to the king when the king already has two other wives and 5 sons. His grandchildren will never have any chance at the throne unless a catastrophe happened. Especially when there is a nice Great Lord's heir who she can have and their son will be a ruling Lord.

Sorry to get off subject this thread isn't about polygamy but Elia, Princess of Dorne.

It depends on how high or low the lord is. Another variable would be the birth order of the lord's daughter. The oldest daughter would be a prize to a high lord, but what if he had 3 or 4? A second or third daughter birthing princes and/or princesses while also securing ties with the royal family? That would have to be seen as an advantageous match for the lord. This all assumes we're talking about the daughter being the second wife of the crown prince, of course.

[Anath]

And here comes the fight for the position of a first wife of the king. I imagine this was one of the reasons Targaryens preferred to marry in the family - keeping it all in, so to say. Not being related to the other noble families and give them too much power. This was the principle of the Ottoman Empire - the only one I am aware of that was ruled by only one dynasty in 500 years of history. The sultans married slaves, never Ottoman noble ladies. The Targaryens did the opposite, to the same effect. When they deviated, things stopped looking good. Dance of the Dragons comes to mind. And then Rhaegar maybe decided to repeat the exercise with Elia and Lyanna, not necesarrily with Elia's consent. Robert's Rebellion prevented us from seeing what would happen in the aftermath of Rhaegar's succession.

[Wmarshal]

Elia of Dorne deserved more then Rhaegar, and was good woman.

[rondo has three heads]

Thanks for this OP. Elia is perhaps my favorite unseen character, even moreso than the Daynes

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

I feel for Elia she has gotten the fuzzy end of the lolly pop .By descriptions of her she not Ashara,Cercei or Lyanna hot but she is not a bag over the face lady either she has a good heart ,intelligent, quick wit and a good wife and mother. The community has her languishing in a loveless relationship .And willing to be a party to a kidnaping of daughter of a liege lord just so that your husband could have another child. People believe this if she is compliant in the scenario she is stepping aside for the greater good not being pushed out.