Nigeria is going to take over the world

[Demonblade]

With functioning zoning laws and proper infrastructure sewage treatment plants can be built well away from residential areas.

True, but the smell can carry for miles, and residential districts can quite often smell the nearby sewage plant, at least where I live.

[Seli]

True, but the smell can carry for miles, and residential districts can quite often smell the nearby sewage plant, at least where I live.

Checking some local news seems that over here smell at that level is an indication of a malfunctioning system. It is apparently possible to build low-nuisance systems, but they probably cost. I assume that we tend to invest more over here in the Netherlands.

[Demonblade]

Well the smell doesn't have to come from the plant itself; even just walking past a manhole cover could be a pungent reminder of what's flowing down there. The point is, when debating the merits of urban farms, smell ought to be quite low down the list of considerations.

[Seli]

Well the smell doesn't have to come from the plant itself; even just walking past a manhole cover could be a pungent reminder of what's flowing down there. The point is, when debating the merits of urban farms, smell ought to be quite low down the list of considerations.

Which does not need to happen with proper infrastructure.

And smell, as well as noise, or dust, is one of those highly influential continuous irritants. It ought to be important.

[Demonblade]

Well if its possible to work without giving off a huge smell, so much the better. Regardless, industries in cities have, and continue to produce foul odours of varying degrees in manageability. Urban farms may produce odours some may find offensive, so much that they will have to be placed in industrial zones, which may have to happen anyway. It's a problem that could easily be overcome, IMO.

[SpaceChampion]

I think by the time we have to do urban farms on a massive scale, we'll be doing vat-grown meat from stem cells, probably printed using 3D-printer technology to include marbling for steaks, etc.

[TerraPrime]

I think by the time we have to do urban farms on a massive scale, we'll be doing vat-grown meat from stem cells, probably printed using 3D-printer technology to include marbling for steaks, etc.

3D printing still uses energy. Unless we switch to solar, there will still be pollution. I'd also argue that 3d printing of proteins (i.e. meat) might be more energy intensive than living organisms.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

It's crazy inefficient. You cannot really feed a city that way. You can feed a handful of dilettantes who put a vast amount of time into it. Subsistence farmers world over do not live in cities. They go to cities to stop being subsistence farmers.

Brutal, but I think quite accurate. There is a trendy appeal to people growing their own food in the cities, but in terms of producing anything close to a quantity to make a difference, unless you're growing herbs, it's not viable. It's more about feeling like you're doing something good than actually doing something good.

[Sci-2]

Brutal, but I think quite accurate. There is a trendy appeal to people growing their own food in the cities, but in terms of producing anything close to a quantity to make a difference, unless you're growing herbs, it's not viable. It's more about feeling like you're doing something good than actually doing something good.

My understanding is the ideal urban farms grow food for at least the surrounding community?

I have to check if there were any major successes. I believe there's one that worked out pretty well though it took a lot of donations to get there.

[Datepalm]

Brutal, but I think quite accurate. There is a trendy appeal to people growing their own food in the cities, but in terms of producing anything close to a quantity to make a difference, unless you're growing herbs, it's not viable. It's more about feeling like you're doing something good than actually doing something good.

You are doing something good. (I used to work in a community gardens program here.) You're bringing green into the city, reclaiming abandoned spaces, extending the sense of community ownership of an area, increasing safety, healthyfying the ecology of the built environment, giving a local place for a variety of activities for families and the elderly in particular, and probably growing quite a lot of herbs. Herbs are great.

What you are not doing is feeding anyone. Calorie for calorie, urban farming is probably a net loss.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

You are doing something good. (I used to work in a community gardens program here.) You're bringing green into the city, reclaiming abandoned spaces, extending the sense of community ownership of an area, increasing safety, healthyfying the ecology of the built environment, giving a local place for a variety of activities for families and the elderly in particular, and probably growing quite a lot of herbs. Herbs are great.

What you are not doing is feeding anyone. Calorie for calorie, urban farming is probably a net loss.

Yeah, that's about right. Herbs always make sense, because you don't need much space but can grow what you need, and save some money.

On something of a tangent, I recall volunteering for a project in the city, and what we ended up doing was working to reclaim a vacant lot for a garden. Bunch of lawyer types, friends, and community activists all moving rocks, cutting brush, picking up trash, setting ties, etc.. The few residents who showed just kind of stood there all day watching us. Interesting experience.

Anyway, I think that except for a few hobbyists who particularly enjoy growing things, and whatever herbs you might get, such projects will not last because a great many people just don't see the value in return for the effort required.

[TerraPrime]

Brutal, but I think quite accurate. There is a trendy appeal to people growing their own food in the cities, but in terms of producing anything close to a quantity to make a difference, unless you're growing herbs, it's not viable. It's more about feeling like you're doing something good than actually doing something good.

What Datepalm said.

I think it's doing good also for the reason that you're offsetting some of your dietary needs that used to rely on high carbon footprint items with produces that are low carbon footprints. That's a net gain for the over all health of everyone.

But what urban farming cannot do is to sustainably feed an urban population. At least not with the current habits of eating. Maybe it'd be feasible for areas below Tennessee and Oklahoma, but in areas that freeze in winter it is not possible to grow enough food in the summer season to have enough to last through the winter, for the whole urban area.

That said, I can see Sci-Fi type solutions that _might_ work, like aggressive use of hydroponics using recycled waste water and renewable energy (wind + solar) in high-rise buildings dedicated to farming. The trickiest part will be our dependence/fondness of meat items. Once you start animal husbandry, ethical constraints make significant demands on space. Or does anyone truly think that the entire Central Park will provide enough space for cows, chickens, and pigs, to sustain the demand for meat of the metro NYC at our current rate of consumption?

In other words, "sustainability" is tied to what we're trying to sustain. If it is the current standard of dietary habits, then no, urban farming will not be able to keep up.

[Datepalm]

On something of a tangent, I recall volunteering for a project in the city, and what we ended up doing was working to reclaim a vacant lot for a garden. Bunch of lawyer types, friends, and community activists all moving rocks, cutting brush, picking up trash, setting ties, etc.. The few residents who showed just kind of stood there all day watching us. Interesting experience.

We've had mixed responses with that here. Some gardens spring up fairly spontaneously from the neighbourhood, others are very much an outside attempt to jumpstart a bit of community in a bad area. It's a method, like community centers or after school programs or whatever. Sometimes it manages to catch on, sometimes not. :dunno:

Anyway, I think that except for a few hobbyists who particularly enjoy growing things, and whatever herbs you might get, such projects will not last because a great many people just don't see the value in return for the effort required.

Well, you can manage a bit more if you put your mind to it - we have a fairly regular harvest and come out with a dozen or so jam jars every year of apricots, nectarines, pomegranates and this year grapes, and we have lemons all year round, because they do weirdly in this climate. (I used to have passionfruit too, but lets not talk about that.) That's from a pretty small backyard that is hardly taken up, but it requires work. If we really just wanted lemons/nectarines/whatever, it would be more efficient to go work at our various jobs, and use money earned buy nectarines from people who are growing them on a large scale. Economics, eh.

We're into that, so it's ok. But we're Ukrainian, and thus possess an unhealthy attitude towards backyard agriculture - that is, view it as a sort of sacred honor and measure of moral character. A lot of people in the Ukraine really do personally grow a fairly decent proportion of their own fruit and veg, and basically barter a lot of dairy as well, and it is mostly a function of poverty and inefficiency. If it isn't someone's hobby to grown their own herbs, I really don't wish it on them. It's stupid, hard, repetitive, unhealthy work. If you don't see the value required and prefer to go do something with your time you have some actual comparative advantage in, I can only commend you. Urban farming is great and adorable and all, but it doesn't actually mean anything.