The Targ fire RESISTANCE debate...

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Dany believes it's the case, but this doesn't mean she's right. She's clearly wrong, considering she's been burned and she's uncomfortable in hot weather. The text also indicates that what Dany thought she knew isn't the truth at all. For reference, see all of those conversations she had with Jorah and Barristan about her immediate family.

It doesn't mean she's wrong, though either. Two different observers actually saw Dany on fire when she flew off on Drogon, but all she ended up with was some blistering and some slightly burnt hands. Now how she's still got clothes on afterwards is kind of odd, admittedly, Though maybe the clothes were what was on fire, they just quickly were put out when Drogon took off. Who knows?

It's more like "not all Starks are skinchangers just like not all Targs are prophetic dreamers". The author has stated that all of the current generation of Starks are skinchangers.

So Sansa is a skinchanger? That's interesting, considering there has been zero evidence of that in the books that I'm aware of...

We don't actually know if all Targs were not capable of riding a dragon. Dragons were gone for 150 years but the Targs had a lot of dragons at one point. A fair number of these beasts were killed in the dance of dragons.

There's also no evidence that they all could ride dragons, though certainly it COULD be the case, just like all Starks COULD be Greendreamers and Greenseers I suppose.

Magic predated the rebirth of dragons. The prologue of the very first book tells us this.

I'm not going to argue this one, because it's irrelevant to my point. The point was that magic re-awakened recently.

Melisandre hasn't actually done anything significant with this so-called super magical king's blood. The closest we get is when she used the burning of Alester Florent to generate fair winds on the trip to the wall, and by her definition, he didn't have king's blood.

I suppose the leech thing could have simply been a coincidence, or a trick by her designed to show the power of King's Blood, when all she was doing was using the flames to see the future. But how about the shadow babies? Could Alester Florent's semen have done that as well?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Didn't quite work out for Egg, didn't it? :P

I don't know, I haven't read Dunk and Egg yet, but thanks for the spoiler :)

[The guy from the Vale]

I believe I was the first :P

I've put up the quotes for what happened in each case, I wonder if anyone ever analyses a text the good ol' way these days.

Just wanted to give an explanation for those who can't combine the facts you've collected into a coherent picture.

ETA:

I don't know, I haven't read Dunk and Egg yet, but thanks for the spoiler :)

Doesn't happen in Dunk and Egg, I'm referring to Summerhall.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Which really only proves that Quentyn is an idiot rather than any fire resistance on Dany's part.

It's not impossible that Dany becomes fire-resistant, but arguing it is like arguing that Jon will become ice-resistant - there's no basis so far in the series for this argument at all.

Walking into a funeral pyre and walking out with only her hair burnt isn't a basis for Dany having some sort of resistance to fire? Really?

[TalalOfDorne]

Please point out one person in this thread stating Targs are fireproof?

I never said that anyone pointed that out. I was just surprised that something Martin answered went this long. And yes, I believe that Targaryens arent fireproof, and that this is what Martin was answering. Im not sure what this has to do with what other posters think.

[Ygrain]

If my experiences on the Sandor thread are any indication: nope

I'm not much into SanSan, so I have no idea what is going on there - anything I should know?

It doesn't mean she's wrong, though either. Two different observers actually saw Dany on fire when she flew off on Drogon, but all she ended up with was some blistering and some slightly burnt hands. Now how she's still got clothes on afterwards is kind of odd, admittedly, Though maybe the clothes were what was on fire, they just quickly were put out when Drogon took off. Who knows?

They didn't see her on fire, they saw her hair burning. Now, several posters over the time have claimed experience when a portion of their hair burnt up to the scalp, yet they didn't get burnt, so it seems that instead of magical fireproofnes, there might be conditions when this can happen - depending definitely on the type of hair, and, as I believe, factors like wind/air stream from buffetting wings which might douse the flame before it can do damage.

[Lala]

Walking into a funeral pyre and walking out with only her hair burnt isn't a basis for Dany having some sort of resistance to fire? Really?

Which Martin then goes on to backpedal and state clearly that the scene of the funeral pyre does not mean what readers were inferring it to mean. It wasn't "intentional basis" from Martin if that makes you happier.

[Ygrain]

Walking into a funeral pyre and walking out with only her hair burnt isn't a basis for Dany having some sort of resistance to fire? Really?

The author himself states that this was a one-time magical event, and, frankly, that's eactly what I thought when I was reading it.

[Lala]

I'm not much into SanSan, so I have no idea what is going on there - anything I should know?

There are just a lot of arguments that Sandor is a monster, Sansa is too young to make her own decisions, Sansa is a Disney Princess, which clearly ignore the contextual evidence on both of the characters. I really want to chuck some of the posters at the PtP threads :bang:

[Dr. Pepper]

I believe I was the first :P

I've put up the quotes for what happened in each case, I wonder if anyone ever analyses a text the good ol' way these days.

I love your breakdown of the two scenes. I'm saving it in my files for future fireproof threads.

-------

I also want to state, again, that since we know from the author and from the text that Targaryens are not fire or heat proof/resistant, that the question becomes why do they think they are?

It doesn't mean she's wrong, though either. Two different observers actually saw Dany on fire when she flew off on Drogon, but all she ended up with was some blistering and some slightly burnt hands. Now how she's still got clothes on afterwards is kind of odd, admittedly, Though maybe the clothes were what was on fire, they just quickly were put out when Drogon took off. Who knows?

Other observers saw her fall from the dragon. We know that's know true. We also know her hair burned off, which explains the fire. We also know that she wasn't engulfed by flames because her whip and clothing survive completely unburnt. Dany is absolutely wrong about the pit being the same as the pyre. Not that this has been brought up, but she's also wrong that she can't get ill.

So Sansa is a skinchanger? That's interesting, considering there has been zero evidence of that in the books that I'm aware of...

I would likely provide the wrong quotes for this, but it's a good question to bring to the Pawn to Player threads as they have all the quotes handy.

There's also no evidence that they all could ride dragons, though certainly it COULD be the case, just like all Starks COULD be Greendreamers and Greenseers I suppose.

Starks don't have to use spells and horns to become wargs and someone without the right blood will not become a warg just because they raised a direwolf. The comparison of dragon riders and wargs is faulty.

I suppose the leech thing could have simply been a coincidence, or a trick by her designed to show the power of King's Blood, when all she was doing was using the flames to see the future. But how about the shadow babies? Could Alester Florent's semen have done that as well?

The leech thing was absolutely a trick. The leeches and blood didn't control the free will of dozens of people across the realm. She wanted to use Davos for her shadowbabies so I'm going to say yes, Florent's semen would have done it as well. I also have an inkling that Quaithe doesn't seek out known kings for her shadowbaby-making.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Dany didn't use her blood in the pyre and the eggs were hatching before she was able to step into the flames. Before that, the flames were too hot for her to get near.

As I said before, I wonder if the Dragon riders have to be in the presence of dragons to gain some sort of fire resistance/immunity.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I never said that anyone pointed that out. I was just surprised that something Martin answered went this long. And yes, I believe that Targaryens arent fireproof, and that this is what Martin was answering. Im not sure what this has to do with what other posters think.

I don't think this thread is arguing that Targaryens are fireproof. Just that perhaps Dany has some sort of fire resistance, perhaps as some long dormant hereditary Targaryen thing, perhaps even a trait shared by other Dragon Riders.

[Dr. Pepper]

Walking into a funeral pyre and walking out with only her hair burnt isn't a basis for Dany having some sort of resistance to fire? Really?

It's accepted that this was a miraculous event. Since it was miraculous, it probably won't happen again. We are very unlikely to see Dany stepping into a fire and walking out with dragons a second time.

I also recommend reading this thread as it details exactly what happened at the pyre, specifically about how Dany was not able to step into the flames until the eggs were already hatching. The OP of that thread determined that it was Mirri's magical singing that hatched the eggs, but there are other theories.

[butterbumps!]

I'm not sure I fully understand this thread, or this debate generally.

There's the pyre scene, which was called by the author a "one time magical event."

Then we have scores of evidence that show times when Dany felt unduly uncomfortable in the heat.

We have evidence that Dany burnt her hands after pulling out a spear from Drogon in the fighting pit.

We also have some ambiguous scenes in which it's not fully clear how close Dany got to fires that don't really confirm heat resistance either way.

What's the purpose of the debate? The fact that Dany finds the heat in Meereen to be oppressive and received burns (described in great disgusting detail, I might add) shows us that she does not posses some magical "heat resistance" gene that renders her impervious to fire and heat at all times.

But even beyond this conclusion, what is the function of "heat resistance?" In what way would this benefit her in the future, especially given the fact that Winter has come, which means that "cold resistance" will be a lot more beneficial to the characters? Is the argument that somehow her proclivity for steaming hot baths will somehow advance her story?

[Ygrain]

I love your breakdown of the two scenes. I'm saving it in my files for future fireproof threads.

Glad to be of assistance :-)

There are just a lot of arguments that Sandor is a monster, Sansa is too young to make her own decisions, Sansa is a Disney Princess, which clearly ignore the contextual evidence on both of the characters. I really want to chuck some of the posters at the PtP threads :bang:

Ah, I see. SOme things never change, no matter the topic of the thread :D

[Dr. Pepper]

As I said before, I wonder if the Dragon riders have to be in the presence of dragons to gain some sort of fire resistance/immunity.

The author explicitly stated that bonding with a dragon does not offer them resistance or immunity. The quote has been provided several times in this thread. The books also show that a dragon rider in the presence of dragons does not gain resistance or immunity. Rhaenyra was still burned and eaten by her dragon. Dany was still burned even though she was sitting atop a dragon that she has raised since hatching.

[RumHam]

I don't know, I haven't read Dunk and Egg yet, but thanks for the spoiler :)

Dunk and Egg books haven't gotten that far yet. What happened at Summerhall is mentioned in the main series in bits and pieces.

Clash of Kings

This talk of a stone dragon... madness, I tell you, sheer madness. Did we learn nothing from Aerion Brightfire, from the nine mages, from the alchemists? Did we learn nothing from Summerhall? No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons

Storm of Swords

Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar’s birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. “It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?”

“Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best.

Feast for Crows

“It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his

birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young

Dance with Dragons

All three of the sons of the

fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch

had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making

bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day,

ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

Where is Apple Martini? She should destroy this thread already.

[ReekLeek]

There is no debate when the man who wrote the damn books has already explained the situation. People who think they have powers are willfully ignoring the truth.

Thank you for this. Please read and reread this post

[Dr. Pepper]

But even beyond this conclusion, what is the function of "heat resistance?" In what way would this benefit her in the future, especially given the fact that Winter has come, which means that "cold resistance" will be a lot more beneficial to the characters? Is the argument that somehow her proclivity for steaming hot baths will somehow advance her story?

Not to mention that there are suggestions that dragons may not operate so well in cold, inclement weather considering the rain bothers and/or grounds them.