QUAITHE and Shadows

[EdDaugstark]

Hello folks, just stumbled on something VERY interesting I don't think has been picked up on regarding masked Quaithe.

From what we know of Quaithe, she has some prophetic abilities or so it seems...we also know she is considered a "shadow binder" from the shadowy, myserious shadow lands of Asshai. I found a very interesting quote regarding shadows during chapter 48 Daenerys, ACOK. It is towards the end, when Dany finally meets the Undying ones and sees their true, horrific forms. She asks about the things she has seen previously when travelling through THOTU, I quote:

"I have come for the gift of truth" Dany said, "in the long hall, the things I saw, were they true visions? Or lies? Past things or things to come? What did they mean?"

(To which the warlocks reply)

"The shape of SHADOWS, morrows not yet made. Drink from the cup of ice, drink from the cup of fire. Mother of dragons, child of three."

Now, consider Quaithes title...a Shadow-BINDER. To bind implies to tie or restrict...a dominant word...a binder also implies a position of power, they are not the bound,nthey're the ones who are doing the tying.

So, from this, what does everyone think? Can we interpret that Quaithe is manipulating events to come? Does she have a hand/knowledge of all that will transpire in future/unmade morrows? We know already that she has the ability to appear physically before someone.... and.... yet....NOT be there physically evidenced by her midnight visits to Dany at multiple points in the saga.

Lets have some decent comments and intelligent discussion please.

[Muggle]

most think she has lit and is using an obsidian candle to communicate across vast distances

[Lost Melnibonean]

So you're saying Quaithe inspired Dany's visions in the HOTU? I can't buy that. I assume some of those visions were inspired by the warlocks and some by the shade of the evening.

[EdDaugstark]

So you're saying Quaithe inspired Dany's visions in the HOTU? I can't buy that. I assume some of those visions were inspired by the warlocks and some by the shade of the evening.

No, I'm not saying anything like that. I'm saying think about what the Warlocks say about shadows and then consider that Quaithe is a shadow binder. Please read the topic.

[Arya_Ghostface]

Melisandre also claims to be a shadow binder, and so does Mirri Maaz Duur. Pretty much every character who claims to have ever 'studied' magic in Asshai beneath the Shadow claims to be a shadow binder. Personally, I tend to connect the word shadow with Asshai magic. It isn't clear how instances of real magic in the World oIaF are connected, but I am pretty sure they are not all separate magic entities, but are probably different manifestations of the same magic source.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

The shape of SHADOWS, morrows not yet made.

The warlocks seem to use the word "shadows" as a reference to the future not being fixed yet, still in flux, with only a general outline discernible (even with magical help). If "shadowbinding" uses "shadows" in the same sense, it would more or less mean "future shaping".

However, "shadow" is a pretty common word, and my impression was that shadowbinders work with actual shadows as a substance, a raw material, both ingredient and result of their spells, a bit like a smith works iron (just with more magical pizzazz on top). Shaping the future sounds cool, but seems a bit too vague to accurately describe a magical discipline.

[Korgon The Reaver]

Yeah a character who has been mentioned twice and maybe spoke 10 words is going to be the linchpin of all the events happening.

[Bushido]

I took it that "shadow" is synonymous with past. Like in the saying "a shadow of his past self" shadow alluding to loss of glory, abilities, general decay, as fruitless as time past. In addition, you have a parallel that speaks of future "morrow not yet made".

[Dragonmag170]

I think "shadow binder" is just an empty title; Asshai seems to have a fascination with shadows, just as Valyria had a fascination with Dragons/fire, and dragons/fire were the basis of almost all of their magic. In the House of the Undying, Dany sees visions of the past, present, and potential future. I think that the Undying who spoke was merely saying that the visions were fleeting, potentially insignificant pieces of events as the were/are/could be.

[Blueberry Stark]

"The shape of SHADOWS, morrows not yet made" - shadows is an appositive being modified by "morrows not made." In other words, shadows = the the indefinite or possible future ("morrows not made"). In this context shadow doesn't have the same meaning as a silhouette of an object, therefore shadows has nothing to do with shadowbinding.

[Lost Melnibonean]

No, I'm not saying anything like that. I'm saying think about what the Warlocks say about shadows and then consider that Quaithe is a shadow binder. Please read the topic.

Sorry, guess I'm just to dense to follow...

[WhiteWalder]

Yeah a character who has been mentioned twice and maybe spoke 10 words is going to be the linchpin of all the events happening.

I think it's a little more than being mentioned twice. Quaithe meets Dany at Vaes Tolorro. She warns Dany in Quarth. She magically appears and speaks to Dany on the boat ride to Slaver's Bay, and again in Mereen. She is also mentioned many other times when Dany is thinking about Quaithe's warnings. This is not a character mentioned only twice, or just in passing.

[Blueberry Stark]

Sorry, guess I'm just to dense to follow...

No, you're not. It was a fair question.

From what we've seen of shadowbinding in the story from Melisandre, I take it to mean that the shadowbinder literally binds a shadow (silhouette) to his or her will. That's why in this particular context I don't see a connection with shadowbinding because shadow here refers to the future. I don't think that shadowbinding refers to predicting or controlling future events, although I suppose that it could. We have no evidence for this interpretation as of yet, imo.

[Bushido]

I think "shadow binder" is just an empty title; Asshai seems to have a fascination with shadows, just as Valyria had a fascination with Dragons/fire, and dragons/fire were the basis of almost all of their magic. In the House of the Undying, Dany sees visions of the past, present, and potential future. I think that the Undying who spoke was merely saying that the visions were fleeting, potentially insignificant pieces of events as the were/are/could be.

You've saw Melisandre - would you call her shadow babies an empty act?

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not sure we can say that Quaithe has prophetic abilities. It's more likely that she's viewing things in real time via the glass candles (aka a big brother). The tell for this is that she tells Dany about the Griffs coming for a visit, and they were at the time, but we know they turned towards Westeros instead.

I've been under the assumption that Quaithe is working towards making sure Dany does not go to Westeros and instead comes to her or to Asshai or wherever. But it never dawned on me that a known shadowbinder would want to make shadowbabies with Dany or the dragons. I suppose it didn't dawn on me because Mel apparently uses sex and sperm to birth the babies, but perhaps there are other ways? Mel has propositioned Davos and Jon for the baby making. She has potions and powders for all sorts of things, I'm sort of surprised she doesn't have a potion or powder to manipulate someone into sexing her. Maybe that's what she was attempting to do when she manipulated Jon's bond with Ghost? Or maybe it's a type of magic where consent has to be freely given without manipulation?

Can dragon shadowbabies even be made? The shadowbaby that killed Renly brought a cold with it. Is this where the stories of the ice dragon comes from?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Yeah a character who has been mentioned twice and maybe spoke 10 words is going to be the linchpin of all the events happening.

Im sorry but this character seems to play a key role in the story, and is an indirect adviser to one of our main characters.

[Dr. Pepper]

So there's a different vision in the HoTU that connects shadows and dragons:

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . .

This is connected with the set of images showing blue-eyed king with no shadow (presumably Stannis), a cloth dragon swaying on poles in a crowd and the "slayer of lies" bit.

Also, Mel thinks about the types of shadows she could produce at the wall:

Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them.

Can anyone else recall quotes that suggest such a thing is possible?

[Techelles]

I'm not sure we can say that Quaithe has prophetic abilities. It's more likely that she's viewing things in real time via the glass candles (aka a big brother). The tell for this is that she tells Dany about the Griffs coming for a visit, and they were at the time, but we know they turned towards Westeros instead.

I've been under the assumption that Quaithe is working towards making sure Dany does not go to Westeros and instead comes to her or to Asshai or wherever. But it never dawned on me that a known shadowbinder would want to make shadowbabies with Dany or the dragons. I suppose it didn't dawn on me because Mel apparently uses sex and sperm to birth the babies, but perhaps there are other ways? Mel has propositioned Davos and Jon for the baby making. She has potions and powders for all sorts of things, I'm sort of surprised she doesn't have a potion or powder to manipulate someone into sexing her. Maybe that's what she was attempting to do when she manipulated Jon's bond with Ghost? Or maybe it's a type of magic where consent has to be freely given without manipulation?

Can dragon shadowbabies even be made? The shadowbaby that killed Renly brought a cold with it. Is this where the stories of the ice dragon comes from?

So there's a different vision in the HoTU that connects shadows and dragons:

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . .

This is connected with the set of images showing blue-eyed king with no shadow (presumably Stannis), a cloth dragon swaying on poles in a crowd and the "slayer of lies" bit.

Also, Mel thinks about the types of shadows she could produce at the wall:

Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them.

Can anyone else recall quotes that suggest such a thing is possible?

DP, I like your thinking. Some sort of winged shadow beast comparable in nature to Mel's shadow babies has been a crackpot of mine for a few months now. I mentioned it briefly in this post of mine a while back. You and I even spoke of it once, I think. You've already touched upon the most relevant quotes, but here is one more for consideration.

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing.Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

It's one of Mel's visions at the Wall. Some sort of shadow dragon is currently my best guess for the final, very cryptic line in the "slayer of lies" sequence. Is such a creature the third lie to be slain? It would make sense that the Mother of real dragons would be the one to expose/destroy false dragons born of some dark magic. She's already on track to slay the lie of the false "dragon" Aegon VI. She has a vested interest in exposing him; it stands to reason that she'd be the one to come into conflict with other false dragons, too, if there are any.

I'm not suggesting that a shadow binder needs to have sex with a dragon or anything weird like that. You said perhaps there are other ways, and that's what I'm banking on. Can't say I know what that way might be, though. Maybe it's tied to the dragon horn, which might not do what everyone seems to think it does. What if, instead of taming dragons, it actually creates shadow dragon thralls when blown in the presence of real dragons? I know, it's crackpot, but what the hell.

I lean away from thinking that Mel will be the one to create this third lie because she is already tied very closely to the first, which is Stannis as a would-be Azor Ahai reborn.

[finger]

So there's a different vision in the HoTU that connects shadows and dragons:

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . .

This is connected with the set of images showing blue-eyed king with no shadow (presumably Stannis), a cloth dragon swaying on poles in a crowd and the "slayer of lies" bit.

Also, Mel thinks about the types of shadows she could produce at the wall:

Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them.

Can anyone else recall quotes that suggest such a thing is possible?

Visions come in groups of three, I think this group is about Baratheon kings:

blue eyes, no shadow = Robert, no trueborn sons

cloth dragon = some Cersei's son, it's Tywin who manages the poles

the beast is Stannis, who went to war from Dragonstone and whose shadow killed Renly and Penrose (Dragonstone is perched over the see on the skirts of a smoking mountain)

These prophecies are nor easy to interpret, but I think this is coherent

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not suggesting that a shadow binder needs to have sex with a dragon or anything weird like that. You said perhaps there are other ways, and that's what I'm banking on. Can't say I know what that way might be, though. Maybe it's tied to the dragon horn, which might not do what everyone seems to think it does. What if, instead of taming dragons, it actually creates shadow dragon thralls when blown in the presence of real dragons? I know, it's crackpot, but what the hell.

I lean away from thinking that Mel will be the one to create this third lie because she is already tied very closely to the first, which is Stannis as a would-be Azor Ahai reborn.

There's part of that quote you linked above, "bodies locked in lust," that is often attributed to Dany in some way. Mel knows the towers she sees are different from Eastwatch. If I recall correctly, the walls around Meereen are noted to have tall towers and these are right next to the sea (I think, just remembering the ships being used as part of the siege). Victarion is on his way and based on spoiler summaries [spoilers]he's due to arrive right when Barristan has the war effort in full swing.

Yeah, I'm thinking dragon sex probably won't be involved if dragon shadows can be made (though this might lend credence to the whole 'targs might have copulated with dragons' thing we heard a while back). Quaithe touched Dany's arm and left a peculiar tingle . "Dany’s wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her." Maybe one can pull a shadow through touch or something?

Or, like you said, it could be the horn that creates it. Or a horn blown by someone that is no longer entirely human. Vic has that crazy arm now, and there are questions about whether or not Moqorro is using a glamor on himself due to something magical extending his life.

It wouldn't be the first time Greyjoys are likened to a sea or tide sweeping over walls. And of course, Vic is traveling with two people known as Dark Flame and Dusky Woman. There's no mention that Moqorro may be a shadowbinder, but perhaps there are clues that the Dusky Woman might be? Could be why she hissed at Moqorro? :dunno: