Theory: Darkstar's father (TWoW Spoilers)

[Maidenpool?]

Eh, definitely not. Selmy very clearly connects the dishonour with the birth of her stillborn daughter.

What if it was Brandon Stark's second time with Ashara?

At Harrenhall, Ashara would have been around 20, isn't that a little old for a Dornish females first time?

(OK im reaching, I just don't want to agknowledge the fact that Darkstar could be a nobody)

[Ygrain]

What if it was Brandon Stark's second time with Ashara?

At Harrenhall, Ashara would have been around 20, isn't that a little old for a Dornish females first time?

(OK im reaching, I just don't want to agknowledge the fact that Darkstar could be a nobody)

Eh, who says it was the first time, and not just the first time it became publically known, because Ashara got pregnant?

Plus, IRRC, it was said that Oberyn and Arianne shouldn't be taken as examples of typical Dornish sexual behaviour and that even in Dorne, noble females were expected to be virgins when entering marriage.

[DreamEater53]

Yeah, I have to admit that when I opened this thread, I expected just another "Darkstar is the PtwP and his father was a god and his mother a unicorn", but this actually has a lot going for it. Kudos, Russo!

If you tell me that Darkstar's mother is not a unicorn, I'm leaving this forum

[TheBastardofBluegrass]

I like this theory a lot. I just think his name - Gerold Dayne - leaves everything questionable. The biggest hole for me, is if that if Gerold was Oberyn's son, he would be Sand, whether the mother was a Dayne, or not. As has been established, Gerold and Oberyn knew each other, why Oberyn go so far out of his way to disown/denounce him as his son? A son from the houses of Dayne and Martell would be a pretty big deal, even if born out of wedlock. The comparisons to Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are pretty reasonable. However, unlike Joff and co. having one parent's identity secret, it's possible Darkstar may not know who either parent is. All the major players who have been brought up so far on this thread are dead, or believed dead. Oberyn, Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Ashara, Elia etc. Doran is such a recluse it's unlikely he knows for certain who Darkstar's parents are.

[Veltigar]

One big problem with this theory: If Oberyn is truly Darkstar’s father than why is he so obsessed with Ser Arthur Dayne overshadowing all the Daynes in general? If he was Oberyns than he should be unaffected by that, no?

I think this seriously limits the likelihood of the theory. Because Darkstar could only be Dayne obsessed and Oberyns son when his mother was the ruling Lady of House Dayne of High Hermitage (or the heir of High Hermitage) at the time of conception.

Regarding the other evidence. It’s great and I think I’m inclined to believe it but I think it’s not as convincing as HR+AD= MR & JR.

[Frey family reunion]

The reason I think it's possible that Oberyn is Rhaella's son, is because this is the only real possibility that could justify Oberyn and Doran's perception of how dangerous Gerold Dayne is.

Let's say that Gerold Dayne is fostered with House Dayne to keep Aerys from finding out about Rhaella having an illegitimate child while he was imprisoned in Duskendale. When Aerys Targaryen was alive, it would have been extremely risky for House Dayne and House Martell to have knowingly harbored this child.

Even now that Aerys is dead, and Doran is apparently the the midst of the Game of Thrones that includes Dany and Faegon, Gerold's status as an older child of Rhaella's still makes him dangerous. Dany would be the younger child and a foreigner to Westeros, while faegon's lineage is questionable. Dornish lords that Doran is couning on to back whatever schemes he has going on (either with Dany or faegon) could instead back Gerold, a known quantity who could make at least an arguable claim for the throne. If Gerold was also the White Bull's son, that could potentially put House Hightower in an ackward position with House Martell as well.

I dont' see why Gerold being yet another bastard of Oberyn's with an unamed member of House Dayne, would cause him to pose a problem for Doran. Doran's entire family would have to be wiped out, and even then Oberyn's elder sand snakes would still have a better claim if they were legitimized.

Another issue I have with Gerold being Oberyn's son (though not a huge deal) aren't all of Oberyn's bastards said to at least share Oberyn's viper shaped eyes? No indicating that Gerold shares this particular family trait.

[Ygrain]

The reason I think it's possible that Oberyn is Rhaella's son, is because this is the only real possibility that could justify Oberyn and Doran's perception of how dangerous Gerold Dayne is.

Let's say that Gerold Dayne is fostered with House Dayne to keep Aerys from finding out about Rhaella having an illegitimate child while he was imprisoned in Duskendale. When Aerys Targaryen was alive, it would have been extremely risky for House Dayne and House Martell to have knowingly harbored this child.

Even now that Aerys is dead, and Doran is apparently the the midst of the Game of Thrones that includes Dany and Faegon, Gerold's status as an older child of Rhaella's still makes him dangerous. Dany would be the younger child and a foreigner to Westeros, while faegon's lineage is questionable. Dornish lords that Doran is couning on to back whatever schemes he has going on (either with Dany or faegon) could instead back Gerold, a known quantity who could make at least an arguable claim for the throne. If Gerold was also the White Bull's son, that could potentially put House Hightower in an ackward position with House Martell as well.

I dont' see why Gerold being yet another bastard of Oberyn's with an unamed member of House Dayne, would cause him to pose a problem for Doran. Doran's entire family would have to be wiped out, and even then Oberyn's elder sand snakes would still have a better claim if they were legitimized.

Another issue I have with Gerold being Oberyn's son (though not a huge deal) aren't all of Oberyn's bastards said to at least share Oberyn's viper shaped eyes? No indicating that Gerold shares this particular family trait.

And how would Rhaella hide pregnancy from the whole court and especially Varys? It's simply inconceivable.

[Frey family reunion]

And how would Rhaella hide pregnancy from the whole court and especially Varys? It's simply inconceivable.

It would only work if the child was born during the Defiance of Duskendale where Aerys was imprisoned for half a year, and a good part of the King's Court would have been a part of the seige. The Queen would have also needed the help of her ladies in waiting (at least one of which would have been Doran's mother) to hide the fact as well.

As for inconceivable, there is a theory that Queen Elizebeth I secretly had an illegitimate child while she was queen, her pregnancy was kept hidden from a good part of the court through the help of her handmaidens. So there is some historical precedent at least.

[Goldhand the Just]

Good theory. What if he was never legitimized because his mother was married at the time. I don't think it's too crazy to think Oberyn would have a problem with adultry. Darkstars mom never told anyone but him. Oberyn knew and told Doran. That could possibly explain some things.

[Veltigar]

One big problem with this theory: If Oberyn is truly Darkstar’s father than why is he so obsessed with Ser Arthur Dayne overshadowing all the Daynes in general? If he was Oberyns than he should be unaffected by that, no?

I think this seriously limits the likelihood of the theory. Because Darkstar could only be Dayne obsessed and Oberyns son when his mother was the ruling Lady of House Dayne of High Hermitage (or the heir of High Hermitage) at the time of conception.

Regarding the other evidence. It’s great and I think I’m inclined to believe it but I think it’s not as convincing as HR+AD= MR & JR.

On top of my previous post I would like to say to the OP that his idea of Oberyn being Darkstars father is good but he should drop all the other things that are stated in the OP (like that Darkstar would be a threat to the Dornish line of succesion).

[Ygrain]

It would only work if the child was born during the Defiance of Duskendale where Aerys was imprisoned for half a year, and a good part of the King's Court would have been a part of the seige. The Queen would have also needed the help of her ladies in waiting (at least one of which would have been Doran's mother) to hide the fact as well.

As for inconceivable, there is a theory that Queen Elizebeth I secretly had an illegitimate child while she was queen, her pregnancy was kept hidden from a good part of the court through the help of her handmaidens. So there is some historical precedent at least.

Elizabeth'a and Rhaella's positions were vastly different, and Elizabeth wasn't under the surveillance of a master of whisperers with little birds crawling within the walls.

[Frey family reunion]

Elizabeth'a and Rhaella's positions were vastly different, and Elizabeth wasn't under the surveillance of a master of whisperers with little birds crawling within the walls.

Varys didn't come on the scene until after the Defiance of Duskendale, by the time he arrived, my guess is that Darkstar was already well on his way to Dorne. One additional way that Rhaella could hide a pregnancy is Dragonstone. That is a pretty convenient way to keep a pregnancy out of King's Landing gossip, especially if you have devoted ladies in waiting and members of the Kingsguard willing to look the other way for their Lord Commander.

[ladyinblack]

I don't think Ser Barristan meant anything else except Ashara having sex before being married. But in Dorne things are different. People have sex before marriage and people don't think they've been "dishonoured" them. Look at Oberyn and Arianne, both have had sex before getting married, Oberyn never did marry, and Arianne wasn't punished or anything by Doran when Daemon Sand took her maidenhood.

To Ashara, having sex with Brandon wouldn't have been him "dishonouring" her, in her eyes. But because Selmy isn't from Dorne, and is honourable, he'd see it as a "dishonour" to her.

What happens in Dorne, stays in Dorne

[King of Winters]

What happens in Dorne, stays in Dorne

Sure does :leer:

[Zachary Snow]

i thought darkstar was a dayne of high hermitage not the starfall daynes

[WingedMan]

Good theory. Nice to see these every once in a while.

[snowynightfall]

Huge fan of Gerold Dayne so I'm always thrilled to see his character being discussed beyond "how lame he is!" Lol ya right. Awesome OP and the whole thread has been interesting... I daresay, the Rhaella - Hightower theory even caught my attention. Darkstar is so mysterious! Can't wait to see where his story goes!

[aryagonnakill]

Just read all 6 pages, it was commented several times that "Oberyn acknowledged all his bastard daughters, but was not known to have any sons." Well we were told by Catlyn all the way back in AGOT that male bastards can be the ruin of houses. Maybe Oberyn never wanted any males to compete with a weak Doran and a weak Quentyn.

[QueenOfWhiteWalkers]

I just read a Theory from another good poster that Darkstar is a Targayen, sorry but that was more plausible.

[Frey family reunion]

Huge fan of Gerold Dayne so I'm always thrilled to see his character being discussed beyond "how lame he is!" Lol ya right. Awesome OP and the whole thread has been interesting... I daresay, the Rhaella - Hightower theory even caught my attention. Darkstar is so mysterious! Can't wait to see where his story goes!

One other thing I noticed that makes he Gerold Dayne - Minotaur connection a little stronger, just like King Minos' daughter Ariadne (boy how close to Arianne is that?) acts as Theseus' guide to the Minotaur's lair, Obara is acting as Balon's guide to High Hermitage to hunt down Gerold.