Theory: Darkstar's father (TWoW Spoilers)

[SFDanny]

Well as stated in the thread, possibly for the same reasons that people didn't know Joffrey was Jaime's son. Plus, Oberyn may not even know.

Or, they do know, but have not mentioned it. Like how Ned obviously knows who his mother is, but never thinks of it once. They don't think or mention it because GRRM does not want it revealed yet.

Sorry, I must have missed your change from the OP. I thought you were saying that Darkstar was the son of Oberyn and an unnamed Dayne, not that he was the son of Oberyn and Elia. That would be a true comparison to the reasons Joffrey's parentage is hidden from public knowledge. If so, and you are still saying Darkstar is conceived on the journey to Casterly Rock (not sure why that would be important) we have to envision quite an interesting trip as the young and pregnant Elia is presented to possible future husbands on her journey. I'm also wondering how this is hidden from Aerys and Varys when Aerys consents to a marriage of Elia to Rhaegar. Lots of questions. Perhaps that is not what you were saying, but, if not, the reasons Darkstar being Oberyn's son would be hidden have nothing to do with why Joffrey's real father's identity was hidden.

If you are instead claiming that Darkstar is the son of Oberyn and an unnamed Dayne, then it is obvious that Doran knows the story, but why would he keep it secret from his brother when he accepts all of Oberyn's other illegitimate children into his court? Doesn't seem likely. These two brothers, though very different, worked hand in glove - notice who witnessed House Martell's seal of the marriage pact arranged by Doran of Prince Viserys and Arianne. That would be Oberyn Martell if I remember correctly. No, If Doran knew, Oberyn knew, imo. So why keep the boy a secret? For House Dayne's honor? Having the nephew of your liege lord born into your house doesn't seem to be a cause for secrecy. At least not to me. Color me unconvinced and unsure of why Darkstar is the "most dangerous man in Dorne" if this is true.

[Russo]

Sorry, I must have missed your change from the OP. I thought you were saying that Darkstar was the son of Oberyn and an unnamed Dayne, not that he was the son of Oberyn and Elia. That would be a true comparison to the reasons Joffrey's parentage is hidden from public knowledge. If so, and you are still saying Darkstar is conceived on the journey to Casterly Rock (not sure why that would be important) we have to envision quite an interesting trip as the young and pregnant Elia is presented to possible future husbands on her journey. I'm also wondering how this is hidden from Aerys and Varys when Aerys consents to a marriage of Elia to Rhaegar. Lots of questions. Perhaps that is not what you were saying, but, if not, the reasons Darkstar being Oberyn's son would be hidden have nothing to do with why Joffrey's real father's identity was hidden.

If you are instead claiming that Darkstar is the son of Oberyn and an unnamed Dayne, then it is obvious that Doran knows the story, but why would he keep it secret from his brother when he accepts all of Oberyn's other illegitimate children into his court? Doesn't seem likely. These two brothers, though very different, worked hand in glove - notice who witnessed House Martell's seal of the marriage pact arranged by Doran of Prince Viserys and Arianne. That would be Oberyn Martell if I remember correctly. No, If Doran knew, Oberyn knew, imo. So why keep the boy a secret? For House Dayne's honor? Having the nephew of your liege lord born into your house doesn't seem to be a cause for secrecy. At least not to me. Color me unconvinced and unsure of why Darkstar is the "most dangerous man in Dorne" if this is true.

No it was not an affair with Elia. Im not comparing Darkstar with Joffrey. Im just using Joffrey as an example of a married woman having an affair and conceiving a child of that affair, but with everyone else assuming the child is her husbands.

I don't see why Doran must know when it is possible Oberyn doesn't even know. Doran knowing or not knowing is not the be all and end all of the theory.

All of your questions have been answered a couple of times in this thread.

[SFDanny]

All of your questions have been answered a couple of times in this thread.

Actually no they haven't. Various ideas, most of which aren't very convincing have been floated, and they seem to change as people raise problems, but answers that point to this idea as probable haven't been given. Doesn't mean you can't stick with your theory. Have at it, but so far, as I said, not very convincing.

[J. Stargaryen]

Here is a link to SFDanny's Darkstar = Aerion Brightflame's grandson theory, if anyone wants to have a look.

For my money, it's a decent bit of guesswork, but hardly convincing. Whenever there is a question about a person's "true" identity we're arguably programmed to think Secret Targaryen! right off the bat. To add to that, it could very well make sense that a member, or members of Aerion Brightflame's line show up somewhere in the story. But beyond that, the evidence is actually pretty flimsy. Especially in comparison to what has been presented by the OP, at least imo.

For the record, it's not really a strong argument against the OP to point out that he's refined his theory where necessary. That's exactly how theories are supposed to operate. That is, unless you completely nail it the first time. Of course that's very rarely the case. And, sure, this theory doesn't answer all of our questions. But that's about right, considering that we're 5 books through a 7 or 8 book series. Even R+L=J up to this point doesn't answer every question.

[Russo]

Actually no they haven't. Various ideas, most of which aren't very convincing have been floated, and they seem to change as people raise problems, but answers that point to this idea as probable haven't been given. Doesn't mean you can't stick with your theory. Have at it, but so far, as I said, not very convincing.

I'll rephrase. The questions you wrote have been responded to.

You don't agree with the responses, that's fine.

The theory doesn't need to be probable to be discussed, just possible. As of yet, nothing has been shown to be impossible. He still could actually be a legitimised bastard, there are no proofs in the texts to dismiss that out of hand. But I would agree that being the result of a cuckholding is more likely. The consequences of either of which would require tinkering in the side details of the theory. But the main theory, is that Darkstar is the son of Oberyn (as shown by the title), and there is textual evidence that this is possible (once again, I'm not saying it's probable).

[Florina Laufeyson]

This isnt a bad one, OP, but i dont think its true. Fun to speculate with and one of the better Darkstar theories out there, but i dunno. I dont think hes anyone other than who he says he is.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Normally I'm not one for these types of theories but this is actually pretty well thought out. I could almost imagine an Obara prologue or epilogue chapter where, either before, during or after Darkstar inevitably kills her and her companions while wielding Dawn aka the True Lightbringer, Obara thinks or says out loud something that makes it explicit that Darkstar is actually her brother.

Of course at this point, the kinslayer is accursed :(

[SFDanny]

The theory doesn't need to be probable to be discussed, just possible. As of yet, nothing has been shown to be impossible. He still could actually be a legitimised bastard, there are no proofs in the texts to dismiss that out of hand. But I would agree that being the result of a cuckholding is more likely. The consequences of either of which would require tinkering in the side details of the theory. But the main theory, is that Darkstar is the son of Oberyn (as shown by the title), and there is textual evidence that this is possible (once again, I'm not saying it's probable).

I agree with almost all of this. There is way too little about the Darkstar known to rule out many, many possibilities, and your idea should absolutely be discussed among them. Because I find it unconvincing is only my take on it. I fall on the side of the argument, which I think you might agree with, that it is very unlikely Ser Gerold doesn't have more to do in the series and the mystery of why he is the "most dangerous man in Dorne" will be revealed to have some importance in the story. I don't think he is just a throw away character Martin has already shown all there is to do with him. My guess is that Ser Gerold is not done with Cersei and her children. Good luck with the thread and I'll check back in when I can to see if there are anymore contributions that could persuade me in one way or the other.

[The Taxman]

Darkstar being "the most dangerous man in Dorne" is just that, he is the most dangerous because he is a great swordsmen and he isn't afraid to take action. I don't think it has anything to do with his lineage per se (I certainly don't think he is a Targ, maybe Ser Arthur Dayne's son perhaps).

[Frey family reunion]

A few questions, you say he got the silver hair from his unnamed Dayne mother. Has there been an example of a Dayne with silver hair? Ashara was said to have dark hair, and Eddard is said to have pale blond hair. Why do we assume silver hair is a Dayne trait?

Any explanation as to why they name him Gerold. Could he be named after the famous Gerold Hightower, the white bull of the kingsguard? How would that fit your theory if so?

You put great significance on his black forelock of hair. But isn't this merely a mutation as opposed to a proof of genetic lineage? A child may inherit black hair or silver hair from a particular parent but he doesn't inherit a combination of the two hair colors unless he "suffers" from a genetic mutation.

Case in point, doesn't Tyrion also have patches of black hair in his hair, despite (presumably) having two blond haired parents?

Do we know of any other characters that have purely silver hair? (as opposed to Targ. silver and gold?) I can think of one at least, Alerie Hightower, wife to Mace Tyrell. Could silver hair be proof of a Hightower lineage instead?

[Russo]

A few questions, you say he got the silver hair from his unnamed Dayne mother. Has there been an example of a Dayne with silver hair? Ashara was said to have dark hair, and Eddard is said to have pale blond hair. Why do we assume silver hair is a Dayne trait?

Any explanation as to why they name him Gerold. Could he be named after the famous Gerold Hightower, the white bull of the kingsguard? How would that fit your theory if so?

You put great significance on his black forelock of hair. But isn't this merely a mutation as opposed to a proof of genetic lineage? A child may inherit black hair or silver hair from a particular parent but he doesn't inherit a combination of the two hair colors unless he "suffers" from a genetic mutation.

Case in point, doesn't Tyrion also have patches of black hair in his hair, despite (presumably) having two blond haired parents?

Do we know of any other characters that have purely silver hair? (as opposed to Targ. silver and gold?) I can think of one at least, Alerie Hightower, wife to Mace Tyrell. Could silver hair be proof of a Hightower lineage instead?

Arthur Dayne had silver hair. Ned Dayne too I think? I also think GRRM said that the Daynes have silver hair, but are not Targs in response to everyone assuming everyone with silver hair is a Targ (or perhaps it was the violet eyes?)

No explanation on the name Gerold. Don't think it's relevant to the theory either way,

It could be a mutation, or it could be due to a black haired parent. It could be nothing. Darkstar may even dye it like that because he thinks it looks cool.

Tyrion's hair is all golden. One of his eyes is black.

It could point to Hightower lineage, but we don't have any textual evidence that a hightower was around Starfall near the time of Darkstar's conception like we do with Oberyn. (And of course, I accept that Darkstar could have been conceived anywhere)

All of the evidence I posted is circumstantial, and each has more than one explanation. But they all could point to Oberyn. The same can't be said of a Hightower, or Arthur Dayne etc.

[Frey family reunion]

Arthur Dayne had silver hair. Ned Dayne too I think? I also think GRRM said that the Daynes have silver hair, but are not Targs in response to everyone assuming everyone with silver hair is a Targ (or perhaps it was the violet eyes?)

You'll have to direct my attention where Arthur Dayne's description is given. I've never come across it. Ned's description was

Ned had big blue eyes, so dark they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

No explanation on the name Gerold. Don't think it's relevant to the theory either way,

Just found it interesting. Of course Arthur Dayne and Gerold may have been good friends which may help explain why they were together at the Tower of Joy

It could be a mutation, or it could be due to a black haired parent. It could be nothing. Darkstar may even dye it like that because he thinks it looks cool.

Only other characters that I'm aware of with this mutation (if indeed it is) are Elaena Targaryen (platinum hair with golden forelock) and Valarr Targaryen with dark hair and a silver-gold drill. Not sure if that is proof of anything.

Tyrion's hair is all golden. One of his eyes is black.

Not this is a huge deal re: your theory but:

He had let his beard grow to cover his pushed-in face, until it was a bristly tangle of yellow and black hair, coarse as wire.

So Tyrion's basic description is pale blond almost white hair, and a yellow and black beard.

It could point to Hightower lineage, but we don't have any textual evidence that a hightower was around Starfall near the time of Darkstar's conception like we do with Oberyn. (And of course, I accept that Darkstar could have been conceived anywhere)

All of the evidence I posted is circumstantial, and each has more than one explanation. But they all could point to Oberyn. The same can't be said of a Hightower, or Arthur Dayne etc.

I'm not sure The Martell's presence in Starfall is signifcant in regards to conception. Like you said conception could have occurred anywhere. If you needed to hide a child with violet eyes, however, House Dayne would be the perfect place for it.

I think your timeline is significant. Their trip occurred shortly after the Defiance in Duskendale, a period of time where Aerys Targaryen was imprisoned for half a year, and a period of time where a lot of eyes would have been turned away from King's Landing and/or Dragonstone towards Duskendale. The trip involved Oberyn's mother, who along with Joanna, were Queen Rhaella's closest companions. Part of me wonders whether Martin is giving us a sly allusion to the myth of Pasiphae (Rhaella?) , the Queen of Minos who allegedly copulated with a white bull (Gerold?) and gave birth to Asterion. Cretan coins depicted Asterion as a star (Darkstar?) in the middle of a labyrinth. Scholars believe that Asterion is also the minotaur of legend. (reference of Darkstar as a beast?). If you are going to hidehe Queen's illegitimate child with purple eyes from the King, what better place to do that but in House Dayne? Ashara who is good friends with the Queen's daughter in law and sister of Oberyn might have also assisted in this endeavor.

One admittably very small clue may be as Jaime reminisced about the Harrenhall tourney:

Jaime was commanded to return to King's Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who'd remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent's tourney, Aerys had refused.

Was the White Bull just trying to help Jaime out, or did he have an ulterior motive for wanting to go guard the Queen back in King's Landing?

[Little and Less]

Hey I like this OP. It is smart and it may make the "most dangerous man in Dorne" comment on Darkstar much more believable.

Consider this as well - Somehow Doran Martell kept his hot-headed brother from seeking revenge for 16 years! Why hadn't the Red Viper just secretly killed his brother Doran? Wouldn't it be easy to do since Doran was sickly - a simple poison could have easily been given to him to accidently kill him and then the Red Viper could have taken over and started a war with the Lannisters?

Unless the Red Viper knew he would be cursed with kinslaying - which would also explain why he never got rid of Darkstar - he was worried that he was his (possible) son.

[Maidenpool?]

I posted this on another theory thread, it makes more sense posted here.

Darkstar is the son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.

GRRM says he is in his late 20's... to make this work he has to be 26.

Lady Dustin said something along the lines of Brandon Stark "loved the sight of blood on his sword"... Gross image but it gets the point across.

Ashara Dayne was his first, when they were both 13/14 in the year 274/275 AL. Whether or not she consented could be a mystery.

Never the less Ashara is a lady of nobility, so the child is raised by other members of her family, and she is sent back out into the world to find a husband.

When Brandon went up to Ashara at Harenhall to ask her to dance with Ned, it was easy for him because of course he already knew her.

Edit - Darkstar's evil side could be partially explained if he were to have been "born by rape" much like Ramsay Bolton. He could have all the most vicious parts of Brandon Stark along with the Dayne fighting ability.

[King of Winters]

I posted this on another theory thread, it makes more sense posted here.

Darkstar is the son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.

GRRM says he is in his late 20's... to make this work he has to be 26.

Lady Dustin said something along the lines of Brandon Stark "loved the sight of blood on his sword"... Gross image but it gets the point across.

Ashara Dayne was his first, when they were both 13/14 in the year 274/275 AL. Whether or not she consented could be a mystery.

Never the less Ashara is a lady of nobility, so the child is raised by other members of her family, and she is sent back out into the world to find a husband.

When Brandon went up to Ashara at Harenhall to ask her to dance with Ned, it was easy for him because of course he already knew her.

Edit - Darkstar's evil side could be partially explained if he were to have been "born by rape" much like Ramsay Bolton. He could have all the most vicious parts of Brandon Stark along with the Dayne fighting ability.

So what is all this talk about Ashara being "dishonoured" at Harrenhal then?

[Ygrain]

I posted this on another theory thread, it makes more sense posted here.

Darkstar is the son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.

GRRM says he is in his late 20's... to make this work he has to be 26.

Lady Dustin said something along the lines of Brandon Stark "loved the sight of blood on his sword"... Gross image but it gets the point across.

Ashara Dayne was his first, when they were both 13/14 in the year 274/275 AL. Whether or not she consented could be a mystery.

Never the less Ashara is a lady of nobility, so the child is raised by other members of her family, and she is sent back out into the world to find a husband.

When Brandon went up to Ashara at Harenhall to ask her to dance with Ned, it was easy for him because of course he already knew her.

Edit - Darkstar's evil side could be partially explained if he were to have been "born by rape" much like Ramsay Bolton. He could have all the most vicious parts of Brandon Stark along with the Dayne fighting ability.

And when and where would they have met? Brandon was in the North, riding the Rills. Ashara had been only shortly at KL prior Harrenhall.

[Maidenpool?]

So what is all this talk about Ashara being "dishonoured" at Harrenhal then?

Selmy's tale of her being dishonored could mean she was simply mistreated.

For instance, if she was seen to have been crying at Harrenhall, word could get around that something bad happened to her... But that "something bad" could consist of seeing Brandon Stark for the first time since he got her pregnant, and his first words to her being "go dance with my brother."

[Maidenpool?]

And when and where would they have met? Brandon was in the North, riding the Rills. Ashara had been only shortly at KL prior Harrenhall.

This is where my theory collapses. But if I ever find any evidence that places these two in the same area code around 274, I will post right away.

[King of Winters]

Selmy's tale of her being dishonored could mean she was simply mistreated.

For instance, if she was seen to have been crying at Harrenhall, word could get around that something bad happened to her... But that "something bad" could consist of seeing Brandon Stark for the first time since he got her pregnant, and his first words to her being "go dance with my brother."

I don't think Ser Barristan meant anything else except Ashara having sex before being married. But in Dorne things are different. People have sex before marriage and people don't think they've been "dishonoured" them. Look at Oberyn and Arianne, both have had sex before getting married, Oberyn never did marry, and Arianne wasn't punished or anything by Doran when Daemon Sand took her maidenhood.

To Ashara, having sex with Brandon wouldn't have been him "dishonouring" her, in her eyes. But because Selmy isn't from Dorne, and is honourable, he'd see it as a "dishonour" to her.

[Ygrain]

Selmy's tale of her being dishonored could mean she was simply mistreated.

For instance, if she was seen to have been crying at Harrenhall, word could get around that something bad happened to her... But that "something bad" could consist of seeing Brandon Stark for the first time since he got her pregnant, and his first words to her being "go dance with my brother."

Eh, definitely not. Selmy very clearly connects the dishonour with the birth of her stillborn daughter.