Why isn't incest more prevalent in Westeros, especially amongst nobility?

[TheMysteriousOne]

Just so everyone is clear, when I say 'godlike' I don't mean that they were viewed as gods, they were viewed somewhat like 'superhumans' different than common people.

The memory of the rejection still rankled, even after all these years. Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his. Had any man ever been so beautiful? He was more than a man, though. His blood was the blood of old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods.

ETA: Ninja'd by mrunderhill

[Ser Greg of House House]

Just so everyone is clear, when I say 'godlike' I don't mean that they were viewed as gods, they were viewed somewhat like 'superhumans' different than common people.

The memory of the rejection still rankled, even after all these years. Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his. Had any man ever been so beautiful? He was more than a man, though. His blood was the blood of old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods.

ETA: Ninja'd by mrunderhill

Obviously. People know Targs can die. But they're still special.

Just picture that even in our world, where Dragons wouldn't be so unmatched. If there were a group of people bound by blood and only they could ride dragons... How would we see them, flying around like that?

[Morienthar]

Just picture that even in our world, where Dragons wouldn't be so unmatched. If there were a group of people bound by blood and only they could ride dragons... How would we see them, flying around like that?

Target Practice for Sukhoi's.

[jenerationx]

As for the Targs being admired, I don't think so.

I'm honestly surprised that anyone believes that the Targs weren't admired. It's peppered throughout the novels. Can I assume you haven't read the Dunk & Egg novellas? Because it's even more obvious in those how well thought of the Targs were by pretty much everyone. Even if one debates the godlike thing, there's no question that Westerosi society admired (and envied) the family.

I am sure a lot of lords and ladies said bad things about the Targaryens and their "sister fucking" when they could do so without the Targaryens finding out. It wasn't an admired trait.

It's nice that you're sure -- but we have no text evidence for that, do we? And I wasn't arguing that incest itself was an admired trait -- quite the opposite. I said that the Targaryens themselves were admired, which is absolutely true, and it's a little surprising that therefore incest (specifically brother-sister, though I don't think I stated that outright in my original post) wasn't more prevalent in society, as upper echelon rulers/celebrities often are imitated by others.

Well probably because people naturally know not to have sex with their siblings and it only happens in rare cases and usually when the siblings are not raised together. Incest just goes against every bone in your body. Can I ask does the OP have any siblings of the opposite sex?

I don't think you read my original post in its entirety, nor did any of the other posters who have said something similar (not just picking on you). I'm not saying that people should want to have sex with their siblings. I completely agree that we're evolutionarily hard-wired to reject such a thing. The entire point of the post is that they don't live in our society. They openly have role models who practice such a thing -- very unlike our own society. They liked or at least admired the Targs, and typically, social norms are set by its most powerful/admired members, yet somehow there are very few instances where people tried to 'get in' with their rulers. It's unusual.

The best explanation I have seen to explain this is the passage Lala quoted about Westeros' two major religions seeing the act as a huge sin, that the Targs were exempt from due to their Valyrian blood and being above the rules of gods and men.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think what people are getting at, and it is certainly what I was meaning is that the fact humans are hard wired to not find siblings sexually atractive would mean that they do not seek this specific method of emulating their royal family, we see naming children for Targs but having sex with your sibling just goes against human nature (and also in Westeros against their religion) and this is far stronger an instinct than the superficial desire to garner favour or copy celebs.

[jenerationx]

I actually disagree that incest isn't prevalent in Westeros. As far as the current generation goes Jamie/Cersei, Theon/Asha, and Loras/Margaery have all engaged in some form of incest. If the Targs were still in power and continuing the practice (as Dany and Aegon may), that would mean 4 of the 9 controlling houses have had some form of incest very recently.

Tywin also married Joanna (a distant Lannister relative) for the sake of keeping the house stable. Some even theorize there was abuse between Euron and Aeron. And let's not forget Craster.

All things considered, there's plenty of incest Westeros.

I should have specified brother-sister incest; my bad. Other incest, such as between cousins, I'm not counting because it's less unusual, especially historically and in this text as well. There's no open disgust about cousins marrying, but there is definitely open disgust about siblings doing the same. And I also should have specified open incest, because yes, it does happen in pockets here and there, but it's frowned upon. My example was Jaime and Cersei, who have to hide their relationship, their father won't even hear of it being true, and it's one of the accusations leveled against Joffrey.

[jenerationx]

Says who?

Says the text. This passage is quoted on the first page of this thread:

Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.

At the time it was a good explanation to me why Westeros at large still reviles brother-sister incest despite their "role models" the Targs practicing it... but it also quite clearly states that society at large believed them to be even above gods, if they "answered to neither gods nor men."

[Jasta11]

Cersie and many others think differently. They were viewed as god like and greater than normal men.

He was more than a man, though. His blood was the blood of old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods.

Fair enough, but that's really not much different to me from the ''King's blood'' that Mel (allegedly) requires. It's less ''god-like'' and more ''these guys are special because they get to ride dragons''. Sure, it means they were widely feared and respected, no denying that, but admired? Loved? Seen as untouchably perfect figures? No. History is proof enough of that. There was a sort of mythology surrounding them for sure (like there was for most kings in RL), but I don't think they were seen as some sort of super-human, natural overlords. They lived and died like every man, and some of them were also mad, that is also recognized. Also, Cercei is not what I'd call the best of sources, she's absolutely obsessed with the right to rule she and others have.

Anyway, this thread is about the incest, and I maintain the main reason they did it and nobody mined is because they were Kings and you don't question the King (unless he pulls a Joffrey or an Aerys). That goes for incestuous behavior, driking and whoring, and spending more times with your kittens than ruling. Since the Targaryens didn't seem to make much efforts to integrate into Westerosi nobility, it looks normal to me that their customs weren't widely reproduced. Itwas a Targaryen ''thing'' is all. And of course the Seven and the Old Gods dissaproving the practice probably didn't help.

[scorpionspupil]

I imagine a big part of this is politics aswell

8 non-targ major families are jockeying for political power, and the best way to gain political power is to marry a son or daughter to the heir to a house of equal or greater stature. You gain no political power by incestous couplings, thats why the Targs get away with it because they ARE the #1 house and they don't need marry for political gain.

This is why the marriages that brought Dorne into the fold were so notable, this is the only time the Targs had to marry for political gain.

Yes people tend to imitate their leaders, but most westerosi never dealt with or even saw a Targ in their life times (Remember Westeros is roughly the size of South America), and the big 8 have been ruling for thousands of years (Making the 300yr Targ dynasty a blip on the scale). So the common people of Westeros would much more likely imitate the Starks, Tyrells, etc. and not practice incest like the Targs. You might have seen more incest in the Crownlands because they are direct subjects to the Targs, but with the major religous center in KL the taboo from the faith must have offset it.

[PrimeRhaegar]

i not sure but i think some houses may have practiced it but like jamie and cersei they did it under cover and said the targaryens do it so can we. Alas lets not fool ourselves the targs were special and the faith and other nobility and small folk know this fact. Even when cersei was trying to convince jamie for them to get married cause the targaryens did it, she yelled at him that they are not targaryens.

I do think some nobility talk about it behind their backs, but lets be real they let it go because it was common for the targs, because they were/are special.

[Tywin Manderly]

There are other half a dozen men around her,Why on earth is Loras the logical candidate?

Because the outside world would be less suspicious about Loras since he is her brother.

[Lala]

in Westeros, only incest between brothers and sisters is frowned upon. Uncles & nieces, between cousins, it's cool. Targaryans did what they did because they were Targaryans. But people in Westeros still with the seven or the old gods, kept their traditions of not-incest.

Basically this~ And welcome to forums! So any examples about cousins, uncles+nieces, etc. are invalid examples of incest in Westeros. The Targaryens are known for incest only because they married brother to sister.

Countless characters in the books state the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men, that they were the blood of gods and dragons, and that they were different than 'common men'. There's even a book by Maester Thomax called Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons. This demonstatres that the Targaryens were 'deified'.

How can you even deny that the Targs were seen as god-like, when besides their dragons, inhuman beauty and insanity, that was what they were known for?

ETA: The Targaryens eventually fell out of favor of course, mainly because of Aerys' actions.

Agreed~ And great post =v=

I should have specified brother-sister incest; my bad. Other incest, such as between cousins, I'm not counting because it's less unusual, especially historically and in this text as well. There's no open disgust about cousins marrying, but there is definitely open disgust about siblings doing the same. And I also should have specified open incest, because yes, it does happen in pockets here and there, but it's frowned upon. My example was Jaime and Cersei, who have to hide their relationship, their father won't even hear of it being true, and it's one of the accusations leveled against Joffrey.

Again, agreed~

More importantly, Theon didn't know Asha was his sister and Asha ... well she has a twisted sense of humor :P So simply because you sleep with your sister not knowing that she is your sister doesn't necessarily mean that you believe that incest is morally acceptable by the gods and that you would do it knowingly - consequently, Theon/Asha is not an acceptable example of incest in Westeros. It's specifically cases like Jaime/Cersei - couples who know they are siblings and know it is against the laws of gods and men yet still do it anyways.

[Mad Monkey]

Because the outside world would be less suspicious about Loras since he is her brother.

That assumes though that she is attracted to Loras or that he is attracted to her. There's really nothing in the books that proves that other than Cersei's suspicion, and Cersei suspects Margaery of every conceivable misdeed she can come up -- most of which more accurately describe Cersei than anyone else.

I really don't buy this incest theory, and I agree with the posters who argue that brother-sister incest was special to House Targaryen -- it wasn't something that everybody was cool with because of the religious taboo, as well as the fact that it's politically unhealthy for most families.

[Light a wight tonight]

Because animals are hard wired to avoid inbreeding and that has transformed itself into a cultural characteristic in human beings.

This is simply untrue. "Line breeding" is common among dog breeders, and the dogs aren't exactly forced to participate. A friend had this happen accidentally; the sire impregnated his female offspring.

Incest taboo is just that, a taboo. Set up by society, not nature.

[Morienthar]

This is simply untrue. "Line breeding" is common among dog breeders, and the dogs aren't exactly forced to participate. A friend had this happen accidentally; the sire impregnated his female offspring.

Stuff like that is incredibly rare and has human involvement or extreme isolation,Why do you think mature male lion cubs leave the pride on maturity?

or Why bear cubs leave their mother and siblings upon maturity or even why they avoid each other's territories.

[binga]

This is simply untrue. "Line breeding" is common among dog breeders, and the dogs aren't exactly forced to participate. A friend had this happen accidentally; the sire impregnated his female offspring.

Incest taboo is just that, a taboo. Set up by society, not nature.

I am curious, are you a student of biology or evolutionary biology? From what I understand it is not, most mammals tend to avoid it. Of course incest happens, it even happens in humans, but that doesn't mean that it is simply a societal taboo.

[Robar]

To the OP, the Faith condemns it for religious and political reasons. Most of the Westerosi lords will follow what the High Septon says.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Targs married brother to sister. Jaime and Cersei had bastard children who they played off to be Robert's royal heirs. Big difference.