Why do people believe Jon is dead, while Sandor lives?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Ok, so the thread about preferring dead to undead Jon got me thinking on this one, again.

I've mentioned it before in a thread but I really am curious as to why so many people believe Jon is dead or will die from his wounds whilst also accepting the theory that Sandor lives and is the grave digger on the quiet Isle.

Both suffered wounds but it seemed to me that Sandor was far more gravely injured than Jon.

first Sandor looses his ear stump

then a slash to the back of his neck

he is then Polliver hacks at his head and shoulders

the Tickler stabs him in the back & belly

And then a gash to his thigh

he is then left limping and bleeding like a butchered pig.

he is bleeding freely for some time while they ride to woods where Arya treats them with boiled wine and torn strips of fabric.

The next day he is feverish and the wound is clearly infected, she leaves him for dead.

We do not know how long he was like that until found.

So now we look at Jon's wounds

his throat is barely grazed( yes tiny shallow cuts can cause lots of blood)

a dagger to the belly through lots of boiled leather and thick furs etc

a dagger between the shoulder blades

a south knife is mentioned but we do not know if it actually went in him or if so where.

He is at Castle black where whilst there is no actual Maester there are all of a Maester's supplies men who are used to dealing with the wounds encountered in battle, wildlings who simply MUST have some understanding of wound care or how on earth have they survived so long beyond the wall

Likely some of those wildlings will be woods witches and specialist healers all cultures have healers they may not be as effective as Maesters but a combination of their own skills, the fighting men of the watch, the queens men and Maesters supplies seems ample to me to deal with his wounds, which do not apear to have been anywhere vital.

So I ask why do so many think Jon dead but Sandor Clegane alive??? Surely if you can believe that Sandor lived and was healed by the brother from the Isle you can also believe that Jon can be healed.

[UselessOpinion]

People believe Sandor lives because it's heavily hinted at Quiet Isle that he survived. The type of wounds and where they were sustained have nothing to do with it.

We have nothing to go off of that suggests Jon is alive.

[Four-Eyed Crow]

Why do some people die in relatively minor car crashes while others survive horrendous ones? Why do some people survive gunshot wounds in the head while others die from a nicked artery in an otherwise nonvital location?

Seriously, it may have something to do with the fact that we've seen Sandor (or somebody matching his physical description) while the last book ended with Jon getting his shirt wet repeatedly.

[Daena the Defiant]

People believe Sandor lives because it's heavily hinted at Quiet Isle that he survived. The type of wounds and where they were sustained have nothing to do with it.

We have nothing to go off of that suggests Jon is alive.

In the vision/prophecy/reverie that Mellisandre has about the 'grey girl on a dying horse' she also seems a man who becomes a wold who becomes a man again. Some have possitted that Jon can shunt into Ghost (like Varamyr did) when he was dying and then Melissandre may be able to heal his body and he'll move back in.

There is another subset of readers who suggest that, in a "Birnam Wood to Dunsinane type maneuver" thus having 'died' he is freed from his oaths to the Nights Watch and can assume his place in the Stark succession.

[N/A]

it's simple really, jon is at castle black where half the men don't like him and want him gone, so why would they let people heal him (he sent away all his friends except for tormund and is he even reliable)

as for sandor well, assuming he was found,there's nothing to stop him from recovering

Ps: jon will live,weather we liked it or not (but not in the way you're proposing, there will be some magic involved)

[UselessOpinion]

In the vision/prophecy/reverie that Mellisandre has about the 'grey girl on a dying horse' she also seems a man who becomes a wold who becomes a man again. Some have possitted that Jon can shunt into Ghost (like Varamyr did) when he was dying and then Melissandre may be able to heal his body and he'll move back in.

There is another subset of readers who suggest that, in a "Birnam Wood to Dunsinane type manueveur" thus having 'died' he is thus freed from his oaths to the Nights watch and can assume his place in the Stark succession.

Yea but that doesn't say anything about what happens to Jon after he gets stabbed. That's about the Karkstark girl. Everything we get from Sandor is after-the-fact: there's a giant dude on an island who's handling his war horse that dogs happen to love. There's nothing like that for Jon.

[Daena the Defiant]

Yea but that doesn't say anything about what happens to Jon after he gets stabbed. That's about the Karkstark girl. Everything we get from Sandor is after-the-fact: there's a giant dude on an island who's handling his war horse that dogs happen to love. There's nothing like that for Jon.

Well, not yet because the Jon Snow 'Ides of March' even was a major cliffhanger of aDwD - we all know that GRRM loves his cliffhangers.

[jenerationx]

Well, not yet because the Jon Snow 'Ides of March' even was a major cliffhanger of aDwD - we all know that GRRM loves his cliffhangers.

Well yes, but that is not what is being argued. The OP asked why people believe Sandor to be alive while believing Jon is dead, and the fact is that as of ADWD, we have clues that Sandor is literally alive, while the Jon stuff is speculation. I don't believe Jon is dead at all, but comparing the two in the text at the moment is comparing apples to oranges.

[Daena the Defiant]

Well yes, but that is not what is being argued. The OP asked why people believe Sandor to be alive while believing Jon is dead, and the fact is that as of ADWD, we have clues that Sandor is literally alive, while the Jon stuff is speculation. I don't believe Jon is dead at all, but comparing the two in the text at the moment is comparing apples to oranges.

I quibble slightly about the nature of the conversation since original post was asking for clarification and people have provided clues about why Sandor lives and someone else said that there has been no such clueing about Jon, I merely suggested one possible clue that is extant right now.

It's more like comparing oranges to kumquats, really.

[UselessOpinion]

edited for redundancy

[Ser Greg of House House]

Heavily hinted = written. That's good literature, Martin won't always state things clearly.

It's obvious that Sandor is alive. And if he's not, Martin was counciously deceiving us.

I don't know why people even bother arguing that Sandor is dead. Is this the first book you've read in your life? Authors like to be subtle sometimes.

Anyway, most people believe Jon is either alive or will be revived. But the only evidence we have for that is that he's such an important character and his arc is not over yet.

I think he's a live. But with Sandor it's clear.

[-Ghost-]

it's simple really, jon is at castle black where half the men don't like him and want him gone, so why would they let people heal him (he sent away all his friends except for tormund and is he even reliable)

What do you mean half the men dont like him? Out of the entire watch there were only 4 brothers involved in the stabbing.

[silentwanderer]

Speaking only for myself, I'm positive Sandor is as dead as Jon.

It's only "Robert Strong" that got UnDead status (and I still want to know how Gregor managed to do so without a head).

[UselessOpinion]

What do you mean half the men dont like him? Out of the entire watch there were only 4 brothers involved in the stabbing.

Just cause only 4 people stabbed him doesn't mean that others couldn't have disliked him. I don't stab everyone I dislike.

[N/A]

What do you mean half the men dont like him? Out of the entire watch there were only 4 brothers involved in the stabbing.

they're sheep, they would follow their ringleaders

edit : also do you really think all that talk of "whispering behind my back" was just 4 people, do all who opposed him need to be part of it (how will he survive then, if he's stabbed more than a hundred times)

[Whitering]

What do you mean half the men dont like him? Out of the entire watch there were only 4 brothers involved in the stabbing.

Well, there are quite a few of the Queen's Men, as an example, and a few more than 4 that don't like him, but ya, if Mel wants to heal him there is not a single person at the Wall who a) could if they wanted to, or b)would even care to try to, stop her from doing whatever she wants. The Queen's men consider her to be sacred and the Nightswatch is seriously outgunned by wildlings and Queen's Men. The King wanted the Wildlings there and ultimately supported Jon. If Mel does so publicly, nobody is going to gainsay her.

[Four-Eyed Crow]

Just cause only 4 people stabbed him doesn't mean that others couldn't have disliked him. I don't stab everyone I dislike.

I saw a breakdown of this - apparently the only people identified in the stabbing are stewards, not good at combat and apparently even worse at assassinations. I'm sure that others questioned things that Jon did, but the reaction in the room when Jon asks for volunteers to follow him to Winterfell doesn't smell like an environment where he'll get no help or defense from would-be turncloak assassins.

I've also seen it argued rather convincingly that Jon's decision to march south was not an act of oathbreaking, that since his life had been openly and credibly threatened by the writer of the pink letter he was well within his rights as LC to deal with that threat. I think it's a good argument, and it keeps Jonboy within the law and Bowen &c. squarely on the block.

[silentwanderer]

Just cause only 4 people stabbed him doesn't mean that others couldn't have disliked him. I don't stab everyone I dislike.

They did say it was "For the Watch"

And Jon made the rookie mistake to send the people he trusted the most to other Castles and keep the people he didn't trust closer enough to keep an eye on (you need to shield yourself frst "shield that guards that Realms of men"!)

Second Lord Commander that gets stabbed by his own men in a row.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

While we see a man who has a similar physique and a limp to Sandor we do not know it is him ( I do think it is btw I'm just saying.)

People who believe it is him believe that he not only survived alone for perhaps days but that a man who is essentially a monk was able to sort out his infection and treat the multiple wounds.

So we are making assumptions based on our thoughts that the grave digger must be Clegane.

So this is the basis for the Sandor lives camp.

But because we hear nothing about Jon post stabbing people believe he must die? when he has been a major character throughout who's story is yet to reach any acceptable conclusion.

Jon may be hated by many at CB but he is also adored by many many more the Wildlings outnumber the NW men and not all the NW want him dead and the Queens men have a vested interest in his continuing to be the LC as any new LC may not support Stannis. His dieing at this point in the story simply has no purpose at all and makes no sense from a stort telling perspective.

Yes we have textural evidence that the hound survived but what I am asking is why do people accept his survival and then say that Jon has died for certain. I think its comparable as both have been seen to receive multiple knife (& sword in sandors case) wounds and have no access to a Maester for the sake of making a believeable story you can't have one man die of lighter wounds than the other survives to do so is unrealistic and silly.

Yes sometimes people survive shocking events but essentially it is always the same nothing vital was actually hit ie the amazing cases that see a person skewered on say an iron railing but live and other times people die from tiny wounds such as if a major artery is nicked essentially though it appears the opposite the nicked artery is a far worse injury than the skewered persons.

When we consider what we think may be about to occur in the next book we make descisions based upon the events of the previous 5 books and based upon our own understanding of what makes a good story or good writing.

I think based upon my belief that Sandor survived his wounds I can assume Jon will survive his.

I'm not trying to argue I'm more interested to read why people can suspend belief that Sandor would survive really quite bad wounds and an infection only to assume that Jon will die of three minor wounds and a possible fourth with the prospect of immediate while not expert care is highly likely?

[manting]

Sandor Clegane is Alive - Im 100% sure of this. He did not die on the page - meaning his death is alluded to and then we have another persons accounting his death who says "the hound is dead" - the hound - not sandor clegane - also the giant new monk (he is bigger than Brienne which is damned rare) and the fact that the septons dog runs right up to him is a wink from GRRM to those that read closely.

Jon is not dead. When we last see him he is badly hurt but not dead. Will he die? I dont know but neither does anyone else. People believe he is dead b/c that way he can "die" and be freed from his oaths. What these people forget is that right before he is stabbed up he is ready to lead the wildings on a attack on Ramsay - thus abandoning his post and breaking his oaths.