Does GRRM overuse the 'fake death' tactic

[Theda Baratheon]

Yes she is. Her personality has just changed. Tends to happen after a lot of trama

lol, no. They are not the same person anymore. Stoneheart is the vessel for all of Catelyn's anger and vengeance, but it's not a cop-out having her as a character, because it's not really a resurrection. Catelyn hasn't just been brought back from the dead, which would be crap and definitely a cop-out. Stoneheart is never going to have some sort of happy ending because she's not human. She isn't the Catelyn that we know.

I'm aware that Catelyn herself is most likely dead and gone, but the matter of the fact is that her body is still alive, for lack of a better word. So, technically Catelyn (the body) isn't dead.

Alive is not the best choice of words, and that's a body. A body does not a person make.

[LordStoneheart]

lol, no. They are not the same person anymore. Stoneheart is the vessel for all of Catelyn's anger and vengeance, but it's not a cop-out having her as a character, because it's not really a resurrection. Catelyn hasn't just been brought back from the dead, which would be crap and definitely a cop-out. Stoneheart is never going to have some sort of happy ending because she's not human. She isn't the Catelyn that we know.

Dead bodies don't search for their daughters or caress their fallen son's crowns.

[The Great Walrus]

Dead bodies don't search for their daughters or caress their fallen son's crowns.

Well Stonehart isn't really a dead body. She is an undead, rotted husk of what Cat used to be, devoid of all emotions except anger and the desire for vengeance.

[Danielsnag]

I honestly was not suprised when Cat was actually not dead (for good). Nymeria pulling her out of the river kind of hinted that she would play a part somehow.

[David Selig]

Also, GRRM is/was a television writer. He understands and makes frequent use of cliffhangers and he does so for a reason: they keep the audience interested and wanting more.

Someone really has to explain to Martin that there's a huge difference between 3 months (the usual gap between TV seasons) and 5 years (the usual gap between ASOIF books). So while a cliffhanger in the first case is OK, in the second it's not, at least IMO.

Also that ending a third of your chapters with really contrived cliffhangers isn't adding tension, it's just annoying.

Well Stonehart isn't really a dead body. She is an undead, rotted husk of what Cat used to be, devoid of all emotions except anger and the desire for vengeance.

Speculation. There's no evidence for that.

[The Great Walrus]

Speculation. There's no evidence for that.

Well from what we've seen of her, she seems to be motivated entirely by vengeance and her hatred of the Freys. Perhaps she is capable of other emotions, but i haven't seen anything to suggest that.

[LordStoneheart]

Well Stonehart isn't really a dead body. She is an undead, rotted husk of what Cat used to be, devoid of all emotions except anger and the desire for vengeance.

Speculation. There's no evidence for that.

Exactly. I didn't believe from her first appearance that they were two separate entities. Her searching for the Hound, Arya, and playing with Robb's crown show more to the opposite. And remembering the oath Brienne took.

Well from what we've seen of her, she seems to be motivated entirely by vengeance and her hatred of the Freys. Perhaps she is capable of other emotions, but i haven't seen anything to suggest that.

Its only from the others in the BWB that we hear about her vendetta against the Freys, Boltons, and Lannisters. We hear very few things from her, herself, one being the oathbreaker comment. Until the next books come out and her arc finishes, there's going to be a lot of disagreement on the subject. I'm in the faction that thinks she's still got some Catelyn to her.

[Roland Deschain of Gilead]

At this stage I can't think of many PoV characters (Cersei, Arienne, Areo Hotah?) that haven't had a "death", either fake or implied, at some point in the story.

Some of them really aren't believable (Dany being dead via Drogon) but it's still used a lot.

That being said it doesn't really reduce the impact that much as there are a decent enough ammount of people being killed in the story including PoV characters that it still manages to be a cliff hanger. And at the very least leaves you wondering how they survive.

[Punchslap]

Also that ending a third of your chapters with really contrived cliffhangers isn't adding tension, it's just annoying.

Exactly. Cliffhangers simply don't have the same impact and even death is taken with a grain of salt.

[Cyvasse Khal]

• Davos in the Blackwater - Not a fake death, what did you expect? GRRM to write a fully descriptive chapter about how he floated to the rock/island he washed up on?
  
• Arya getting hit with The Hound's axe - She was knocked out therefore end chapter.
  
• Cat at the RW...although she did technically die - She died, not a fake death.
  
• Tyrion falling in The Sorrows - Not a fake death, neccassary for JC to get greyscale.
  
• Davos rumour at White Harbour - A fake death but neccassary for Wyman to get Wylis back and to show his true colours.
  
• Brienne getting eaten by Biter - Doesn't she pass out? That would end a chapter.
  
• Brienne being hung by Stoneheart...not sure about that one tbh - Not a fake death, it is said that she shouts something before she is hung.
  
• Jon getting stabbed - A cliffhanger, not a fake death since we don't know if he is dead or not.
  

I was not saying those were examples of fake deaths, but examples of the amount of times the reader could have thought that the character had died at the end of the chapter. For example, from memory the Arya one at the end said something like "she was hit in the back of the head with the full force of The Hound's axe". It was not until the next Arya POV that we learn he had just knocked her out with the handle of the axe. And with Tyrion, the last line of his chapter says something like "and the darkness consumes him" or something. Was just saying that's what I feel is overused.

[TalalOfDorne]

Well it can be useful to some extent. I think it shows how easy " faking a death" in Martins world.

[Groat]

Dead bodies don't search for their daughters or caress their fallen son's crowns.

Is she searching for her daughters? She seems to be more preoccupied with killing Freys and Lannisters.

[LordStoneheart]

Is she searching for her daughters? She seems to be more preoccupied with killing Freys and Lannisters.

Yes

Merrett would tell them anything if it meant his life. “What do you want to know? I’ll tell you true, I swear it.”

The outlaw gave him an encouraging smile. “Well, as it happens, we’re looking for a dog that ran away.”

“A dog?” Merrett was lost. “What kind of dog?”

“He answers to the name Sandor Clegane. Thoros says he was making for the Twins. We found the ferrymen who took him across the Trident, and the poor sod he robbed on the kingsroad. Did you see him at the wedding, perchance?”

“The Red Wedding?” Merrett’s skull felt as if it were about to split, but he did his best to recall. There had been so much confusion, but surely someone would have mentioned Joffrey’s dog sniffing round the Twins. “He wasn’t in the castle. Not at the main feast… he might have been at the bastard feast, or in the camps, but… no, someone would have said…”

“He would have had a child with him,” said the singer. “A skinny girl, about ten. Or perhaps a boy the same age.”

“I don’t think so,” said Merrett. “Not that I knew.”

“No? Ah, that’s a pity. Well, up you go.”

I know its Tom saying it, but I can't imagine they wouldn't tell her about Arya.

[Jon of the Dead]

I don't have a problem with fake deaths (or cliffhangers, whatever is the accepted terminology) like Davos' or Bran and Rickon's, etc. Give me fake deaths all day, I don't care.

But I can't stand resurrections. I exhausted my resurrection limit with Dragonball Z, now I have zero patience for that.

[Groat]

Yes

I know its Tom saying it, but I can't imagine they wouldn't tell her about Arya.

The BWB were looking for Arya before Stoneheart got in charge. They lost her to the Hound, so I assumed they felt responsible to get her back. Merrett's POV in terms of timeline is right around when Stoneheart first appeared. By the time Brienne is found, I doesn't seem like Stoneheart, or any of the BWB care about finding the Hound or either of the Stark girls.

[Theda Baratheon]

The BWB were looking for Arya before Stoneheart got in charge. They lost her to the Hound, so I assumed they felt responsible to get her back. Merrett's POV in terms of timeline is right around when Stoneheart first appeared. By the time Brienne is found, I doesn't seem like Stoneheart, or any of the BWB care about finding the Hound or either of the Stark girls.

This is what I read from it aswell.

[LordStoneheart]

And why were they looking for Arya? Beric's promise to return her to Catelyn. I just can't fathom any reason why they would resurrect her and not tell her they had her child with them for a time. And in the epilogue, they say she remembers, so has been communicating with them.

[Errant Bard]

That's why they do not hang around Saltpans, hunt the Hound and the bloody mummers, or gather orphans of Arya's age, heh?

[LordStoneheart]

That's why they do not hang around Saltpans, hunt the Hound and the bloody mummers, or gather orphans of Arya's age, heh?

Maybe they lost his trail, and now are pursuing other endeavors.

EDIT: nevermind, just reread Brienne's last chapter. Perhaps they found Sandor's supposed grave when they stole his helmet and figured since no child was with him the trail there had gone cold. Either way, I still don't think they wouldn't have told Stoneheart

[The Raging Bull]

I see them all as cliffhangers. I like cliffhangers :kiss: