Does GRRM overuse the 'fake death' tactic

[Groat]

And why were they looking for Arya? Beric's promise to return her to Catelyn. I just can't fathom any reason why they would resurrect her and not tell her they had her child with them for a time. And in the epilogue, they say she remembers, so has been communicating with them.

I totally believe they told her, she knows, and UnCat simply doesn't care. Cat died thinking all her children were dead, and as a result UnCat can't really accept they are alive. If it really was Cat in there, her first priority would be to find her girls, not killing Freys and nonchalantly asking them if they remember seeing the Hound at the RW. This just seems like Tom or Lem or whoever was talking to Merrett making idle speculation, not actually pursuing a goal.

[LordStoneheart]

I totally believe they told her, she knows, and UnCat simply doesn't care. Cat died thinking all her children were dead, and as a result UnCat can't really accept they are alive. If it really was Cat in there, her first priority would be to find her girls, not killing Freys and nonchalantly asking them if they remember seeing the Hound at the RW. This just seems like Tom or Lem or whoever was talking to Merrett making idle speculation, not actually pursuing a goal.

If its not Cat in there, why the Frey, Lannister, Bolton killing at all then?

[Prince of the North]

Someone really has to explain to Martin that there's a huge difference between 3 months (the usual gap between TV seasons) and 5 years (the usual gap between ASOIF books). So while a cliffhanger in the first case is OK, in the second it's not, at least IMO.

Also that ending a third of your chapters with really contrived cliffhangers isn't adding tension, it's just annoying.

Exactly. Cliffhangers simply don't have the same impact and even death is taken with a grain of salt.

Heh, I definitely see where you're coming from but I don't happen to agree. :) This just makes me wonder why someone would seemingly continue to partake of something they find annoying? :dunno:

[pride of the 7 kingdoms]

Yeah he does it a bit too much especially in AFFC and ADWD. Nobody believes that Jon is dead permanently. In the first three books he did a bit much less than the others and i admit that it was good and kept my attention. For example; when in ACOK i believed that Davos is dead like most of the readers.(you should admit that). He shouldn't do it on main characters who has plot armor.(Tyrion, Jon, Dany and Arya). I'm sure that all four will be in the last book. Also, all POVs have plot armor too. So far Ned is only major POV who is dead now.

I'm saying that GRRM should use "fake deaths" less and use it non-POV or supporting/minor POVs which we could believe. For example ; Jorah Mormount, Barristian Selmy, Aero Hotah, Asha Greyjoy and he should be more determined while killing characters in order to keep our attentions.

[Errant Bard]

Maybe they lost his trail, and now are pursuing other endeavors.

EDIT: nevermind, just reread Brienne's last chapter. Perhaps they found Sandor's supposed grave when they stole his helmet and figured since no child was with him the trail there had gone cold. Either way, I still don't think they wouldn't have told Stoneheart

Uh, what? The one who found Sandor's helm were biter, Rorge and the bloody mummers, they proceeded to "rape" Saltpans and generally terrorize the region. Lem only gets the helm after Brienne kills Rorge.

Of course they told Cat. I mean, it's not like the bwb did not set up their orphanage in the very last place Arya was seen, by a good number of smallfolk to boot (they flee when the fight is about to break with the tickler), not like Gendry is not there either. And thus they are still looking for the girls, it's just not the only thing they do, not many people can be as incompetent at investigating as Brienne.

[LordStoneheart]

@Errant Bard, I get it now. I was just spit-balling since Lem and Thoros are under the impression SandorHound is dead

[Groat]

If its not Cat in there, why the Frey, Lannister, Bolton killing at all then?

Because she only thinks about her last thoughts when she was alive. This seems to be the trend with people resurrected, both Wights and the R'hllore version. Basically, Cat died watching Freys, Boltons, and the regards sending Jaime Lannister butcher her last remaining child. One of her last throughts was about how all her and Ned's sweet children have died. (ugggh, this is getting hard for me to keep talking about). She also killed a Frey before she went slightly insane. UnCat seems to be all these last emotions she possessed, mixed with a touch of insanity, on top of being dead for days and losing the gods only know what in her thought process.

I for one, truly believe there is nothing left of Cat inside Stoneheart, that she doesn't really care about finding Arya or Sansa, and I think her behavior towards Brienne is more than enough proof of this. Sure, Brienne looks guilty, but the real Cat knew who Brienne was, and would listen and understand her.

[LordStoneheart]

Because she only thinks about her last thoughts when she was alive. This seems to be the trend with people resurrected, both Wights and the R'hllore version. Basically, Cat died watching Freys, Boltons, and the regards sending Jaime Lannister butcher her last remaining child. One of her last throughts was about how all her and Ned's sweet children have died. (ugggh, this is getting hard for me to keep talking about). She also killed a Frey before she went slightly insane. UnCat seems to be all these last emotions she possessed, mixed with a touch of insanity, on top of being dead for days and losing the gods only know what in her thought process.

I for one, truly believe there is nothing left of Cat inside Stoneheart, that she doesn't really care about finding Arya or Sansa, and I think her behavior towards Brienne is more than enough proof of this. Sure, Brienne looks guilty, but the real Cat knew who Brienne was, and would listen and understand her.

The real Cat (also known as Lady Stoneheart) lost her understanding before she was killed, when the Freys broke guest right. The BWB members make it point many times in both chapters we see her that trust, oaths, and honor don't mean much anymore. Cat thought the bread and salt would save them at the wedding, and was wrong. Her trust isn't there and instead she's taking action.

I don't think Stoneheart is very Cat, GRRM confirms that, but I don't think Cat is gone, just changed. He said she "isn't as she was." Well, the same could be said about Arya and Sansa, albeit to a much lesser extreme.

[David Selig]

it's just not the only thing they do, not many people can be as incompetent at investigating as Brienne.

LOL.

I totally believe they told her, she knows, and UnCat simply doesn't care. Cat died thinking all her children were dead, and as a result UnCat can't really accept they are alive.

This is just really out there. There's no proof that resurrection works this way. Cat also died thinking her fingers were ravens, yet obviously UnCat is way more rational and "normal" than this level of insanity and total loss of touch with reality and knows her fingers are jsut fingers (otherwise she wouldn't be able to function as a successful leade of the BWB). She also always knew Sansa was alive except maybe during her last seconds of the RW (the statement is somewhat ambiguous).

[Prince of the North]

I think Catelyn basically suffered a psychotic break just before she was murdered. So, is Lady Stoneheart basically "arrested" in that mental state? I don't know but I also don't think of them as different people. I just think Lady Stoneheart is a profoundly changed Catelyn Stark.

Psychosis

Psychosis is a symptom or feature of mental illness typically characterized by radical changes in personality, impaired functioning, and a distorted or nonexistent sense of objective reality.

Brief psychotic disorder

Trauma and stress can cause a short-term psychosis (less than a month's duration) known as brief psychotic disorder. Major life-changing events such as the death of a family member or a natural disaster have been known to stimulate brief psychotic disorder in patients with no prior history of mental illness.

[Daecon Dayne]

Stoneheart is NOT Catelyn, Catelyn herself was not resurrected, she is a vessel for Cat's vengeance, wrath incarnate, she's not really a person any more.

Hmmm. I'd have to disagree slightly.

Catelyn isn't Stoneheart in about as much that Bran isn't the same kid he was in the first chapter of AGoT, or Stannis isn't the same man he was pre-AGoT. Stoneheart = Catelyn, she's just grief-warped, hyper-vengeful and, well, 'un-dead'. Resurrection detracts from the person's 'original' and, seeing how Catelyn was lifeless for a considerable duration, she's simply 'lost' more than, say, Beric did. Stoneheart is Catelyn, just an eroded, ever-changed version.

I'd also add that Catelyn/Stoneheart is still a person to some extent; she still possesses memories from life, retains hatred for certain characters/houses, and is capable of reason. If not, why care so much about Jaime and the Lannisters? Why terminate Brienne's execution? She's hardly Drogozombie.

But yeah, she's not exactly the Cat we all knew pre-RW.

[Whitering]

Fake deaths? I can think only of Catelyn here and Syrio here. I never believed Arya was being killed, I never believed Jaime was being killed, I never believed Bran and Rickon were dead.

[Daecon Dayne]

With regards to the OP... I dislike the amount of resurrection/potential to cheat death present in the series. I was especially miffed after learning how Martin felt Gandalf's 'return' in LOTR depreciated from the tragedy/peril of the story. His 'returns' differ, but they're returns from death nonetheless.

[Groat]

This is just really out there. There's no proof that resurrection works this way. Cat also died thinking her fingers were ravens, yet obviously UnCat is way more rational and "normal" than this level of insanity and total loss of touch with reality and knows her fingers are jsut fingers (otherwise she wouldn't be able to function as a successful leade of the BWB). She also always knew Sansa was alive except maybe during her last seconds of the RW (the statement is somewhat ambiguous).

Well Beric still operates under the assumption that Robert is still alive and king. People tell him Robert is dead, but he kind of shrugs it off, calls them all Kings Men, and his MO is that Robert is still alive and king. I see no evidence that Lady Stoneheart is as normal and rational as you claim. She is clutching Robb's crown like she's trying to remember, but can't seem to put the pieces together. Also, I think Stoneheart is more of a religious figurehead than an actual administrator, and as Lem shows, the current BWB basically does whatever they want, with Stoneheart yelling out "GUILTY" every now and then when they catch a Frey.

The real Cat (also known as Lady Stoneheart) lost her understanding before she was killed, when the Freys broke guest right. The BWB members make it point many times in both chapters we see her that trust, oaths, and honor don't mean much anymore. Cat thought the bread and salt would save them at the wedding, and was wrong. Her trust isn't there and instead she's taking action.

I don't think Stoneheart is very Cat, GRRM confirms that, but I don't think Cat is gone, just changed. He said she "isn't as she was." Well, the same could be said about Arya and Sansa, albeit to a much lesser extreme.

There really isn't enough evidence either way, but my gut tells me there is nothing of Cat left in Stoneheart. Hopefully we get to see some more explanations in the books to come. :)

[grand old duke of stark]

What bothers me most is another baby boy exchange. LIke Dalla and Gilly, in ADWD George presents the possibility of an Aegon and Pisswater Prince exchange. Two times is too much.

[Ser Uncle P]

With regards to the OP... I dislike the amount of resurrection/potential to cheat death present in the series. I was especially miffed after learning how Martin felt Gandalf's 'return' in LOTR depreciated from the tragedy/peril of the story. His 'returns' differ, but they're returns from death nonetheless.

True, his criticism of Tolkien is a wee bit hollow. i've often said that "If Tolkien had written ASOIAF then Cat would have remained dead!"

Personally, I fell for Bran and Rickon's reported deaths the first time I read Clash, my oldest son was the same age and temperment as Rickon(!) at the time I was reading the series first, the story of his beheading was biggest shock for me.

Davos' reported beheading and Brienne's hanging in Feast shocked me, but by then I was more used to Martin's style and smelled a rat.

[Whitering]

True, his criticism of Tolkien is a wee bit hollow. i've often said that "If Tolkien had written ASOIAF then Cat would have remained dead!"

Personally, I fell for Bran and Rickon's reported deaths the first time I read Clash, my oldest son was the same age and temperment as Rickon(!) at the time I was reading the series first, the story of his beheading was biggest shock for me.

Davos' reported beheading and Brienne's hanging in Feast shocked me, but by then I was more used to Martin's style and smelled a rat.

If Martin was alive and read Lotro before the Silmarillion came out then he has a right to be surprised about Gandalf, but it didn't lessen the tale at all from my perspective, it was nice and his coming back kicked the rest of the tale into high gear, so that was cool.

But if you'd read the Silmarillion you kind of knew he wasn't dead, dead anyway, like even if he hadn't come back then but met Frodo et al at the ships then I wouldn't have been surprised then either.

What I've learned from George, and the problem some people have with Syrio, is that deaths offscreen just don't seem to really happen. Cat's the only exception there. Who honestly believed that Bran and Rickon were dead for more than a moment or two of visceral reaction time?

[Northernmonkey]

At the end of ADWD at face value it looks like Jon and Stannis are both dead, yet as reader's we're almost certain that they're both alive, so it does seem like quite a pointless cliffhanger by GRRM.

[Mark Antony]

Dead bodies don't search for their daughters or caress their fallen son's crowns.

That's why they do not hang around Saltpans, hunt the Hound and the bloody mummers, or gather orphans of Arya's age, heh?

And thus they are still looking for the girls, it's just not the only thing they do, not many people can be as incompetent at investigating as Brienne.

Yeah I definitely think Stoneheart is more than just a vessel of "revenge and hate" I love her.

[Lonin]

Each re-read, when I come to Quentyn's death... I pause and wonder.... is he really dead.. :eek: