Does GRRM overuse the 'fake death' tactic

[WastingSickness]

LOL I knew Syrio Forel would get mentioned

Well, he is the one death everyone disbelieves. The guy left an impression... or had so much informed skill with a blade it made him seem superhuman.

[Prince of the North]

I agree with what was said up-thread: cliffhangers aren't "fake deaths".

[Cyvasse Khal]

Yeah I do think it is used too much, that limbo between the last line of the chapter to the next time you come across that character. I don't have the books with me to check but what are the ones already in the first 5 books?

• Davos in the Blackwater
  
• Arya getting hit with The Hound's axe
  
• Cat at the RW...although she did technically die
  
• Tyrion falling in The Sorrows
  
• Davos rumour at White Harbour
  
• Brienne getting eaten by Biter
  
• Brienne being hung by Stoneheart...not sure about that one tbh
  
• Jon getting stabbed
  

What have I missed?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Well, he is the one death everyone disbelieves. The guy left an impression... or had so much informed skill with a blade it made him seem superhuman.

Hmm I dont know if its just me but I always thought he died in KL, unless he could warg into people?

[MRHD]

My memory isn't super clear on AGOT and ACOK but I don't remember Jaime or Arya being faked dead... :dunno:

Well, not really fake deathed, so much as it looks like they might be about to be killed right when a chapter is ending. Jaime when Catelyn asks Brienne for her sword in her last chapter in ACoK, Arya with Yoren and the dagger in her last chapter in AGoT.

If the question were clarified to "Does GRRM create a false sense of peril for characters at the end of chapters only for them to turn up fine too often?" then I would definitely say yes, he does. While a lot of these end of chapter scenes aren't really credible situations for leading to a character death (both Arya ones come to mind), they definitely seem written in a way to at least make the reader wonder, and the fact that they never actually do turn into a death makes it just a bit tiring at this point.

[The Duke]

Hmm I dont know if its just me but I always thought he died in KL, unless he could warg into people?

He's dead

[WildBlood]

Yeah I do think it is used too much, that limbo between the last line of the chapter to the next time you come across that character. I don't have the books with me to check but what are the ones already in the first 5 books?

• Davos in the Blackwater
  
• Arya getting hit with The Hound's axe
  
• Cat at the RW...although she did technically die
  
• Tyrion falling in The Sorrows
  
• Davos rumour at White Harbour
  
• Brienne getting eaten by Biter
  
• Brienne being hung by Stoneheart...not sure about that one tbh
  
• Jon getting stabbed
  

What have I missed?

Well, not really fake deathed, so much as it looks like they might be about to be killed right when a chapter is ending. Jaime when Catelyn asks Brienne for her sword in her last chapter in ACoK, Arya with Yoren and the dagger in her last chapter in AGoT.

If the question were clarified to "Does GRRM create a false sense of peril for characters at the end of chapters only for them to turn up fine too often?" then I would definitely say yes, he does. While a lot of these end of chapter scenes aren't really credible situations for leading to a character death (both Arya ones come to mind), they definitely seem written in a way to at least make the reader wonder, and the fact that they never actually do turn into a death makes it just a bit tiring at this point.

Oh ok.. Then I agree with what was mentioned earlier, as I don't count cliffhangers as fake deaths. And mostly on the aforementioned cliffhangers, I didn't really fall for them.

[Queen Elsa]

Yes he does. I rolled my eyes when Jon was stabbed and Tyrion fell in the river. No one actually believed that they were dead, did they?

Tyrion is immortal, while Jon? We shall see..

[Sullen]

Tyrion is immortal, while Jon? We shall see..

Let's be honest, if he died, nobody expects him to stay dead.

And yeah, Georges overuse cliffhangers.

[Tharvot]

The only "fake death" that I can think of in the series is "Aegon."

Using a cliffhanger to end a scene is not faking a death because you do not see the person die. You have no idea if they are dead or not.

A fake death is where you see someone die and the next chapter says "just kidding, it was a dream".

I do think GRRM uses undeath too much.

[Queen Elsa]

Let's be honest, if he died, nobody expects him to stay dead.

You mean Jon? I agree. I'd rather want him dead than UnJon though.

The only "fake death" that I can think of in the series is "Aegon."

JonCon, too.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The only "fake death" that I can think of in the series is "Aegon."

Using a cliffhanger to end a scene is not faking a death because you do not see the person die. You have no idea if they are dead or not.

A fake death is where you see someone die and the next chapter says "just kidding, it was a dream".

I do think GRRM uses undeath too much.

:agree:

[Mad Monkey]

I agree with what was said up-thread: cliffhangers aren't "fake deaths".

I agree too. If someone falls into the river in chapter 3 of a 20 chapter book, and in chapter 4 they swim to safety, would you call that a 'fake death'? If that's the case, then any chapter that ends in something potentially dangerous happening is a 'fake death', which kind of stretches the concept to uselessness, including any fight scene as well as any scene where someone might slip and fall off a cliff (climbing to the Eyrie?)

[David Selig]

Yeah I do think it is used too much, that limbo between the last line of the chapter to the next time you come across that character. I don't have the books with me to check but what are the ones already in the first 5 books?

• Davos in the Blackwater
  
• Arya getting hit with The Hound's axe
  
• Cat at the RW...although she did technically die
  
• Tyrion falling in The Sorrows
  
• Davos rumour at White Harbour
  
• Brienne getting eaten by Biter
  
• Brienne being hung by Stoneheart...not sure about that one tbh
  
• Jon getting stabbed
  

What have I missed?

Theon at the end of ACOK. Mance in ADWD. The Hound.

[Victarion10]

Yeah I do think it is used too much, that limbo between the last line of the chapter to the next time you come across that character. I don't have the books with me to check but what are the ones already in the first 5 books?

What have I missed?

• Davos in the Blackwater
  
• Arya getting hit with The Hound's axe
  
• Cat at the RW...although she did technically die
  
• Tyrion falling in The Sorrows
  
• Davos rumour at White Harbour
  
• Brienne getting eaten by Biter
  
• Brienne being hung by Stoneheart...not sure about that one tbh
  
• Jon getting stabbed
  

• Davos in the Blackwater - Not a fake death, what did you expect? GRRM to write a fully descriptive chapter about how he floated to the rock/island he washed up on?
  
• Arya getting hit with The Hound's axe - She was knocked out therefore end chapter.
  
• Cat at the RW...although she did technically die - She died, not a fake death.
  
• Tyrion falling in The Sorrows - Not a fake death, neccassary for JC to get greyscale.
  
• Davos rumour at White Harbour - A fake death but neccassary for Wyman to get Wylis back and to show his true colours.
  
• Brienne getting eaten by Biter - Doesn't she pass out? That would end a chapter.
  
• Brienne being hung by Stoneheart...not sure about that one tbh - Not a fake death, it is said that she shouts something before she is hung.
  
• Jon getting stabbed - A cliffhanger, not a fake death since we don't know if he is dead or not.
  

[Theda Baratheon]

I suppose he does, but he also has no problem with killing off characters either, unlike some stories that have fake deaths but no one ever actually dies except the baddies.

POV characters don't die in their chapters, the only exception is Catelyn, and she was resurrected afterwards.

Stoneheart is NOT Catelyn, Catelyn herself was not resurrected, she is a vessel for Cat's vengeance, wrath incarnate, she's not really a person any more.

[LordStoneheart]

And yeah, Georges overuse cliffhangers.

I don't think so. They do their intended purpose well.

I do think GRRM uses undeath too much.

Prologue pretty much sets it up.

I

[LordStoneheart]

Stoneheart is NOT Catelyn, Catelyn herself was not resurrected, she is a vessel for Cat's vengeance, wrath incarnate, she's not really a person any more.

Yes she is. Her personality has just changed. Tends to happen after a lot of trama

[Prince of the North]

I agree too. If someone falls into the river in chapter 3 of a 20 chapter book, and in chapter 4 they swim to safety, would you call that a 'fake death'? If that's the case, then any chapter that ends in something potentially dangerous happening is a 'fake death', which kind of stretches the concept to uselessness, including any fight scene as well as any scene where someone might slip and fall off a cliff (climbing to the Eyrie?)

Also, GRRM is/was a television writer. He understands and makes frequent use of cliffhangers and he does so for a reason: they keep the audience interested and wanting more. In addition, GRRM (very wisely, imo) doesn't simply spoon-feed everything to the audience. If he did that the audience would simply consume the books, shrug, and go looking for the next story to consume. By keeping things mysterious and making the audience put the info together to figure out what's actually going on in many cases GRRM is very much ratcheting up people's interest ;)

[TheMysteriousOne]

Stoneheart is NOT Catelyn, Catelyn herself was not resurrected, she is a vessel for Cat's vengeance, wrath incarnate, she's not really a person any more.

I'm aware that Catelyn herself is most likely dead and gone, but the matter of the fact is that her body is still alive, for lack of a better word. So, technically Catelyn (the body) isn't dead.