So You're In Love With A Controversial Character...

[Theda Baratheon]

Mhm~ I can understand where he's coming from. But simply because your actions are comprehensible does not make them justifiable.

I don't understand what you mean by 'where he's coming from' ???

[ab aeterno]

As a Tyrion fan, i fully accept that Tyrion is in fact a rapist, and if we didn't have access to his inner thoughts and if he wasn't interesting for so long, i would hate his guts. It genuinely sickens me when misguided Tyrion fans try to split hairs over the definition of Rape in the context of the books.

I'd say, less splitting hairs, more burning dictionaries, from what we see on the forum far too often, sadly.

[Theda Baratheon]

I'd say, less splitting hairs, more burning dictionaries, from what we see on the forum far too often, sadly.

Definitely. Same with people who hate Cersei and deny marital rape as actual rape.

[Lala]

I don't understand what you mean by 'where he's coming from' ???

His actions don't come out of nowhere - as in Tyrion didn't wake up one morning and suddenly decided he wanted to rape a sex slave. He's largely motivated by anger, frustration, a sense of loss and injustice, as well as a certain level of self-loathing that is always present in his character arc. This is basically to say, Tyrion doesn't run around merrily making people miserable because it makes him happy - everything he does is rooted in a logical development of his character.

Off topic: Seriously, has it never bothered anyone that Sauron for some reason just wants domination of ME for no other reason than to have domination? It's like the most pointless, futile exercise in time wasting ever imo.

ETA: This isn't meant to defend his actions btw~ It's more like - Martin actually lets his characters' bad deeds make sense and feel relatable rather than just saying "ohai so dis guy really wants to fuck erryjuan over for no reason than the lulz"

[Winter's Knight]

Mhm~ I can understand where he's coming from. But simply because your actions are comprehensible does not make them justifiable.

Exactly!

Which is what I'm trying to get at-liking a morally ambigiuous/amoral/immoral character is nothing to be ashamed off. But you need to accept the awfulness they get up to. You cannot separate the good from the bad.

In fact, the bad is often part and parcel of the good. Tyrion's tenacity and refusal to roll over and die are powered in part by his bitterness and anger against the world. This same bitterness also insulates his conscience from his more reprehensible acts.

[Theda Baratheon]

His actions don't come out of nowhere - as in Tyrion didn't wake up one morning and suddenly decided he wanted to rape a sex slave. He's largely motivated by anger, frustration, a sense of loss and injustice, as well as a certain level of self-loathing that is always present in his character arc. This is basically to say, Tyrion doesn't run around merrily making people miserable because it makes him happy - everything he does is rooted in a logical development of his character.

Oh, I understand how. :)

I still feel absolutely no sympathy for him at all, but when you say it like this, it makes sense and I can't hate someone for finding his character interesting when they realize what he did was wrong.

[Winter's Knight]

Off topic: Seriously, has it never bothered anyone that Sauron for some reason just wants domination of ME for no other reason than to have domination? It's like the most pointless, futile exercise in time wasting ever imo.

Sauron was the minion of a fallen angel or summat-it's all there in the Silmarillion, which I've only read once over two years ago and cannot remember the details but it does give motive.

[ejhawman]

Sage advice. For me it's Littlefinger, for all the reasons Red Raven cited.

All characters have some grayness to them, they make mistakes or questonable decisions, they learn. I deny that Dany is evil or worthy of hatred (yet!) but Littlefinger leaves me conflicted. I have to admire his skill and his success, but won't shed a tear when he falls, to one of the Lords Declarant (with a little help from Sansa) or the Others.

[Lala]

Exactly!

Which is what I'm trying to get at-liking a morally ambigiuous/amoral/immoral character is nothing to be ashamed off. But you need to accept the awfulness they get up to. You cannot separate the good from the bad.

In fact, the bad is often part and parcel of the good. Tyrion's tenacity and refusal to roll over and die are powered in part by his bitterness and anger against the world. This same bitterness also insulates his conscience from his more reprehensible acts.

Mhm~ I'm not a fan of Tyrion because he's just not my type of character, but I definitely think he's one of the best written and best developed characters I've ever read about. He's not just good because he's Harry Potter, or evil because the lulz - he's very human, and all of his good and bad parts come from very human places.

[StannisBamfatheon]

I'm not sure how controversial it is, but mine is Renly:

1. He was right to claim the throne, nobody wanted Stannis or Joffrey, but they wanted him.

2. He was a good player of the game (he died because Stannis cheated).

3. He was willing to ally with The Starks to take out their common enemy (The Lannisters), something which neither Stannis nor Balon would do.

4. He got the sexiest girl in the realm.

Hahahahahahah, as if the Game of thrones had written rules? This isn't scrabble dude. You win or you die. That is ridiculous.

As for controversial characters I definitely like Robert alot, no this isn't some sort of Baratheon loyalty thing I guess I enjoy the legend/myth of his rebellion, especially the battle with Rhaegar on the Trident. To me, him killing Rhaegar is the most iconic image of ASOIAF so far. I do think his characters flaws are also incredibly overblown. People say Aerys was a "better" king but that's utter nonsense. Robert never murdered his own lords or citizens, never burned men alive and got off on it. A good king doesn't let a civil war envelop the realm!! I don't know how some people can attribute that to good ruling. The years where the realm prospered were largely because of Tywin, and Aerys' jealously of him contributed to his eventual downfall. Robert reign was peaceful save for one rebellion which he summarily crushed. He wasn't a great king but his rule is widely panned unfairly imo. He's become an unfair whipping boy for alot of the board or some reason.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Sauron was the minion of a fallen angel or summat-it's all there in the Silmarillion, which I've only read once over two years ago and cannot remember the details but it does give motive.

woahh good LOTR knowledge WK, take this gold star

[The Great Walrus]

Hahahahahahah, as if the Game of thrones had written rules? This isn't scrabble dude. You win or you die. That is ridiculous.

As for controversial characters I definitely like Robert alot, no this isn't some sort of Baratheon loyalty thing I guess I enjoy the legend/myth of his rebellion, especially the battle with Rhaegar on the Trident. To me, him killing Rhaegar is the most iconic image of ASOIAF so far. I do think his characters flaws are also incredibly overblown. People say Aerys was a "better" king but that's utter nonsense. Robert never murdered his own lords or citizens, never burned men alive and got off on it. A good king doesn't let a civil war envelop the realm!! I don't know how some people can attribute that to good ruling. The years where the realm prospered were largely because of Tywin, and Aerys' jealously of him contributed to his eventual downfall. Robert reign was peaceful save for one rebellion which he summarily crushed. He wasn't a great king but his rule is widely panned unfairly imo. He's become an unfair whipping boy for alot of the board or some reason.

With regards to Robert,i think a lot of his hate comes from how he let the Lannisters take over the Seven Kingdoms, knowing full well what was going on, but did nothing about. That and his treatment of Cersei hasn't earned him any sympathy from the fans.

[Lala]

Oh, I understand how. :)

I still feel absolutely no sympathy for him at all, but when you say it like this, it makes sense and I can't hate someone for finding his character interesting when they realize what he did was wrong.

And you're absolutely not required too :)

I would never fault anyone for not feeling sympathy because I have very little of it for certain characters myself (ahem Lysa Arryn worst sister ever - seriously she makes Aunt Petunia from the first HP book look good by comparison! ahem)

Sauron was the minion of a fallen angel or summat-it's all there in the Silmarillion, which I've only read once over two years ago and cannot remember the details but it does give motive.

I remember reading it and getting something along the lines of: my master wanted domination for the lulz because he didn't think the Valar let him play with the creation enough, but now he's gone so I want domination for the lulz. He doesn't really appear to have been given any motivation more complex than "f yeah lets reform ME in my image and make it all terrible and stuff because awesomesauce!"

But then he's also based on Satan and the Bible isn't exactly renowned for its subtlety in that respect.

Hahahahahahah, as if the Game of thrones had written rules? This isn't scrabble dude. You win or you die. That is ridiculous.

As for controversial characters I definitely like Robert alot, no this isn't some sort of Baratheon loyalty thing I guess I enjoy the legend/myth of his rebellion, especially the battle with Rhaegar on the Trident. To me, him killing Rhaegar is the most iconic image of ASOIAF so far. I do think his characters flaws are also incredibly overblown. People say Aerys was a "better" king but that's utter nonsense. Robert never murdered his own lords or citizens, never burned men alive and got off on it. A good king doesn't let a civil war envelop the realm!! I don't know how some people can attribute that to good ruling. The years where the realm prospered were largely because of Tywin, and Aerys' jealously of him contributed to his eventual downfall. Robert reign was peaceful save for one rebellion which he summarily crushed. He wasn't a great king but his rule is widely panned unfairly imo. He's become an unfair whipping boy for alot of the board or some reason.

LOL

I don't like Robert because marital rape and just ugh I don't like him as a human being - but he certainly wasn't the worst king to sit the IT.

[Theda Baratheon]

Robert Baratheon is a very interesting one to me, I love the idea of Young Robert, jolly, completely alive with his humour, his love of women, his love of battle, he was a handsome and strong warrior, who had the capacity to love and to be gentle and kind. I love the memories Mya has of him throwing her up into the air when she was a little girl and them both laughing. It's lovely. :(

It just makes me sad that he became the drunken, incompetent, fat, abusive, lazy oaf that he became. He WAS abusive, he did rape Cersei, he did hurt her, he was a terrible father to Joffrey, he neglected him, he has beaten him, he was a terrible king.

[StannisBamfatheon]

With regards to Robert,i think a lot of his hate comes from how he let the Lannisters take over the Seven Kingdoms, knowing full well what was going on, but did nothing about. That and his treatment of Cersei hasn't earned him any sympathy from the fans.

And you're absolutely not required too :)

I would never fault anyone for not feeling sympathy because I have very little of it for certain characters myself (ahem Lysa Arryn worst sister ever - seriously she makes Aunt Petunia from the first HP book look good by comparison! ahem)

I remember reading it and getting something along the lines of: my master wanted domination for the lulz because he didn't think the Valar let him play with the creation enough, but now he's gone so I want domination for the lulz. He doesn't really appear to have been given any motivation more complex than "f yeah lets reform ME in my image and make it all terrible and stuff because awesomesauce!"

But then he's also based on Satan and the Bible isn't exactly renowned for its subtlety in that respect.

LOL

I don't like Robert because marital rape and just ugh I don't like him as a human being - but he certainly wasn't the worst king to sit the IT.

Well obviously I don't condone rape or spousal abuse, but why doesn't ever bring up the fact that Roose is an admitted rapist? No one ever uses that against his character I don't get it. He's not a good person.

As for Robert, I'm just saying the criticisms of him are slightly overblown. You can have sympathy for Cersei being in a loveless marriage but not Robert? I mean he's kind of a tragic character I can't help but feel bad for him watching him drink his life away and say "I was never so dead as when I sit on the iron throne" (paraphrasing there). And to ultimately have Cersei kill him, this man who had once won the realm on the back of his warhammer and charisma. Just kind of a bummer.

[Lala]

Robert Baratheon is a very interesting one to me, I love the idea of Young Robert, jolly, completely alive with his humour, his love of women, his love of battle, he was a handsome and strong warrior, who had the capacity to love and to be gentle and kind. I love the memories Mya has of him throwing her up into the air when she was a little girl and them both laughing. It's lovely. :(

It just makes me sad that he became the drunken, incompetent, fat, abusive, lazy oaf that he became.

True~ I read a really good meta on tumblr that talked about how Robert is as much a victim of the songs as Sansa was - how everything was ruined for him because he fought this entire war to save the fair maiden and win the girl (not that I agree with this sentiment), but he didn't and the beautiful dream just came crashing down for him. And how the rest of his rule is basically this long exercise in disillusionment with everything, especially himself.

Can understand. Cannot like. I can even muster some sympathy. But I can't like him.

[Winter's Knight]

Oooh Robert reminds me of those awful, awful college jocks-y'know, the handsome, charismatic folks who get so patronising and yet everyone just loves?

Robert B. is Gaston.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Robert Baratheon is a very interesting one to me, I love the idea of Young Robert, jolly, completely alive with his humour, his love of women, his love of battle, he was a handsome and strong warrior, who had the capacity to love and to be gentle and kind. I love the memories Mya has of him throwing her up into the air when she was a little girl and them both laughing. It's lovely. :(

It just makes me sad that he became the drunken, incompetent, fat, abusive, lazy oaf that he became. He WAS abusive, he did rape Cersei, he did hurt her, he was a terrible father to Joffrey, he neglected him, he has beaten him, he was a terrible king.

Any sort of ASOIAF prequel I think would do some great PR work for his image

[Lala]

Well obviously I don't condone rape or spousal abuse, but why doesn't ever bring up the fact that Roose is an admitted rapist? No one ever uses that against his character I don't get it. He's not a good person.

As for Robert, I'm just saying the criticisms of him are slightly overblown. You can have sympathy for Cersei being in a loveless marriage but not Robert? I mean he's kind of a tragic character I can't help but feel bad for him watching him drink his life away and say "I was never so dead as when I sit on the iron throne" (paraphrasing there). And to ultimately have Cersei kill him, this man who had once won the realm on the back of his warhammer and charisma. Just kind of a bummer.

I'm not exactly a Roose-lover either ;)

For the rest see above~ I do empathize/sympathize with him, but it's hard for me to like the man he became.

[Theda Baratheon]

Well obviously I don't condone rape or spousal abuse, but why doesn't ever bring up the fact that Roose is an admitted rapist? No one ever uses that against his character I don't get it. He's not a good person.

What....are you being serious? Everyone always mentions Roose is a rapist...one of his most famous lines is ''don't make me rue the day I raped your mother''

:/