So You're In Love With A Controversial Character...

[Winter's Knight]

We've all been there-you're reading your favourite character's chapter, laughing at hir jokes, squeeing over hir crush, cheering on hir successes and shaking your fist at hir enemies, wondering why the folks around hir are being so dense and not realising the awesomeness in front of them when suddenly, zie go ans do something awful, like rape a NPC or burn a NPC or crucify a whole bunch of NPCs or defenestrate a child.

And you, being a decent human being, are naturally conflicted about this-am I an awful person for rooting for hir? Does this make me a sympathiser of rapists/murderers/crucifiers/child-defenestrators?

As a devoted Cerseian, I'm here to share some advice on liking a controversial character:

1. Accept the bad with the good. Cersei sends people to Qyburn. Tyrion is misogynistic. Stannis burns people. And so on and so forth. Do not minimise the crimes by assigning blame to the victim or arguing cultural relativism. The latter especially is a terrible argument as it not only takes away your character's agency by painting hir as a victim of society but also negates characters who have acted against said norms.
   
2. Understand that others may not be as forgiving of said person's crimes as you and that's ok. It doesn't imply any moral superiority in the other person or a failing in you.
   
3. It is ok to have a shallow reason for liking a character. (Euron fans unite!)
   
4. It is ok to have a shallow reason to dislike a character.
   
5. It is not ok to disparage others for their likes and dislikes natch.
   

Share your tips?

[Toxspecific]

I'd discuss Stannis but thing is he isn't really controversial. People go against him majorly as a response to his unexpectedly large fan base, and because he isn't a bubbly or happy sort of fellow so they think OMG EVIL.

S I go with Theon. Very complex guy so has done lots of stuff some of which I find justifiable.

Taking Winterfell was always a bad idea, but lets face it, Theon gets tossed into a war situation he is not ready for and is desperate to please his horrible family. Then he sees a legendary castle for the taking. What do you think he is going to do?

That's just one of the justifications.

[Mladen]

Mine is absolutely Jaime:

1. Pushing children off the windows is forgivable only if you share some small detail about previous crimes, like killing mass murderer.

2. Sleeping with your sister on altar where your son is lying dead is incredibly hot.

3. Threatening to catapult pregnant woman or the baby is allowed because we dislike the person the threat is meant

4. Not cheating on your sister whom you are having sexual relationship with is a great virtue

Is this OK?

[King of Winters]

Mine is absolutely Jaime:

1. Pushing children off the windows is forgivable only if you share some small detail about previous crimes, like killing mass murderer.

2. Sleeping with your sister on altar where your son is lying dead is incredibly hot.

3. Threatening to catapult pregnant woman or the baby is allowed because we dislike the person the threat is meant

4. Not cheating on your sister whom you are having sexual relationship with is a great virtue

Is this OK?

Yeah Jaime's mine as well.

[The Bastard of Summer]

My tip is: If you like a controversal character, when replying to a thread to state your opinion of said character, say what you have to say and keep it movin. Don't stick around to argue that someones opinion is wrong. No need to monitor and defend. With that said.....

I LOVE Euron. He makes me want to be a pirate with a drug addiction. EURON! FTW (and I don't mean for the win)

[Lehnaru]

Sansa is controversial only because so many people hate her for being an entirely normal person or something, and she's my favourite, although she hasn't really done anything that controversial yet (and don't bring up her "betrayal" of her father). I suppose my favourite controversial character (and my second favourite overall) would be Jaime. I try my best to defend and justify his actions. Bran is boring anyway. ;)

[ab aeterno]

Great thread as always, WK!

I think your point one is the most important, and in that spirit:

Be honest about him/her! Be honest to yourself, admit their failings, the bad things that they do, their flaws, accept that they're imperfect. Be honest about him/her to others. Admit when someone's criticism is accurate (or at least arguable,) and if you contest it, make sure you accept that their view is valid. If you're engaging honestly with a character yourself and with other people, and you really think that what a poster is arguing is unsupported by the text, and you want to argue, then do so politely and reasonably; don't call them stupid.

ETA: Don't argue that there is only one way to view a character, it is not only flawed - by definition there are many interpretations of a character, their personality and their motivations, rather than just one - but it also makes you look unreasonable.

Understand the difference between something defensible and something being justified. Many actions in the books can be defended from the point of view of the agent who commits them; or can be defended based on sympathy for a character; or defended based on their consequences (things might have been worse if he/she hadn't committed this action). This does not make those actions justified.

[King of Winters]

My tip is: If you like a controversal character, when replying to a thread to state your opinion of said character, say what you have to say and keep it movin. Don't stick around to argue that someones opinion is wrong. No need to monitor and defend. With that said.....

Yeah, that's what I do sometimes, just say your opinion of the character and then don't go back. People will say "they did this and that" but I don't think that will change your opinion of the character.

[Ramsay B.]

Mine is Varys. He's most likely responsible for thousands of deaths through the years as he plays the nobles against each other for his own cause. He causes chaos behind the scenes and I love every second of it. Just how he talks to people and always comes off as such a harmless, little eunuch. The true master of the game.

[Steinnis]

I'll go with Victarion

1. His sacrificing of those whores on the ship wasn't evil, he was honoring the gods.

2. He should of killed Euron and claimed the seastone chair, since he is such a godly man, he stood aside and followed him obediently.

3. He was obviously distraught when Euron defiled his wife, yet he gave her to the Drowned Gods watery halls. Tragic.

4. He gave the slave oarsmen a chance for a better life, not as slaves... but as thralls, their children will be born free!

5. He gave that poor maester a means to defend himself against those nasty crew men of his, he's really a big softy guys.

6. Euron was going to have the dusky woman killed, but he found it in his heart to save her, and let her be the Lord Captain's lady.

7. He saved Moqorro's life after his men wanted him killed, and in return of this good deed, Moqorro gives him a +5 UberHand.

So misunderstood...

[Winter's Knight]

Mine is absolutely Jaime:

1. Pushing children off the windows is forgivable only if you share some small detail about previous crimes, like killing mass murderer.

2. Sleeping with your sister on altar where your son is lying dead is incredibly hot.

3. Threatening to catapult pregnant woman or the baby is allowed because we dislike the person the threat is meant

4. Not cheating on your sister whom you are having sexual relationship with is a great virtue

Is this OK?

I'll go with Victarion

1. His sacrificing of those whores on the ship wasn't evil, he was honoring the gods.

2. He should of killed Euron and claimed the seastone chair, since he is such a godly man, he stood aside and followed him obediently.

3. He was obviously distraught when Euron defiled his wife, yet he gave her to the Drowned Gods watery halls. Tragic.

4. He gave the slave oarsmen a chance for a better life, not as slaves... but as thralls, their children will be born free!

5. He gave that poor maester a means to defend himself against those nasty crew men of his, he's really a big softy guys.

6. Euron was going to have the dusky woman killed, but he found it in his heart to save her, and let her be the Lord Captain's lady.

7. He saved Moqorro's life after his men wanted him killed, and in return of this good deed, Moqorro gives him a +5 UberHand.

So misunderstood...

:lmao:

That's justifying sins guys. Be honest and just accept that Jaime is an amoral sisterfucker and Vic is an evolutionary reject.*

*How not to react to people justifying their favourite characters' sins. Remember, be polite and don't use personal insults as it may end up adding fuel to the fire and spawn an incendiary, passionate conversation that will be vastly entertainingly bloody. And That Would Be Wrong.

[Lala]

Awesome thread WK~

I suppose mine would technically be Dany or Sansa (though I hardly see why Sansa is controversial~), but since I am that bizarre Dany fan that doesn't really defend her much (as in I really love her, secret Targ craycray and all), I am going to use Cersei =D

1. Lena Headey's cheekbones: justify. everything.

2. Lena Headey's cynical, ironic, sideways smile: justify everything her cheekbones haven't already justified.

-seriousness after the break-

3. I adore how Cersei refuses to let Robert victimize her in their relationship - lionesses don't play nice.

[Red Raven]

Petyr Baelish.

He convinced a mentally ill woman who was infatuated with him to kill her own husband and blame it on a whole family to spark a war with another family. Heads wound up on spikes, children were orphaned, tens of thousands were killed and maimed, and crops that were needed to survive an upcoming brutal winter were burned to ash. All because Petyr wanted to make a power grab and get revenge on those he felt wronged him. He also perved on a teenage girl.

Despite that, I love him and revel in his sinister plots. Taking ethics out of it, I can't help but admire his cleverness and his ability to screw people over without them realizing it, and if they do realize it on some level they still think well of him.

In a world where strength and martial prowess matters most, it's fun to see a "harmless" character be the one who has the most impact on events.

[TalalOfDorne]

For me its the Ironborn:

Not much controversy here since most people agree that they are awful human beings, BUT lets be honest: A lot of people are far from being angels in the world of ASOIAF.

The only things Im going to add:

1-Is that a characters likability shouldn't solely depend on their morals.

2- The Ironborn are the victims :leaving:

Mladen: 21-12?

[Corvo Attano]

I'm not sure how controversial it is, but mine is Renly:

1. He was right to claim the throne, nobody wanted Stannis or Joffrey, but they wanted him.

2. He was a good player of the game (he died because Stannis cheated).

3. He was willing to ally with The Starks to take out their common enemy (The Lannisters), something which neither Stannis nor Balon would do.

4. He got the sexiest girl in the realm.

[TalalOfDorne]

I'm not sure how controversial it is, but mine is Renly:

1. He was right to claim the throne, nobody wanted Stannis or Joffrey, but they wanted him.

2. He was a good player of the game (he died because Stannis cheated).

3. He was willing to ally with The Starks to take out their common enemy (The Lannisters), something which neither Stannis nor Balon would do.

4. He got the sexiest girl in the realm.

Provoking StanStans I see :lol:

[Corvo Attano]

Provoking StanStans I see :lol:

Its one of my favourite past times on the forum :P

I did genuinely love Renly though :)

[sightofthesun]

I used to be in denial about Jaime, and I would say that I loved to hate him when really, I just loved him ^_^

I felt so much better for letting it out there :P

Amazing thread btw!

[echidna]

I found Roose Bolton intriguing .... and then had to give my brain a mental bleaching when he revealed his monstrosity

[Ser No One]

Mine would be Lord Tywin. A great man. All he did, he did for his family. He's a mastermind in the Game of Thrones, and he just dies because of his children's consecutive mistakes and bad feelings. However, he still dies proudly, telling Tyrion that his wife was a whore. :cool4: Badass.

I also love Dany and Tyrion but they're not near as much controversial.