Non-Targaryen queens of Westeros (and non-Targaryen brides to princes)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It is possible Jaehaerys the second married a cousin for love since Aerys and Rhaella had silver hair.

[Anath]

Lord Varys, why do you think Egg was not close to Rhae and Daella? Because he speaks of Aemon more often than he does of them? Children in a family do tend to ally by gender, so I wouldn't read too much into it. And of course, Egg spent two years serving at KL but we don't know whether the girls lived there, too. And they were close enough to him to call him by his nickname - they, Aemon, and Daeron whom he obvioulsy feels attached to despite all their differences, let alone the fact that Rhae obviously was close enough to him and liked him enough to want to marry him. I doubt she would have put the love potion into Aerion's drink!

We'll have to wait and see about Alysanne. It can go either way. She's one of the queens I am most curious about.

[Lord Varys]

I should have said that Egg was not drawn to them romantically. But that does not have to mean all that much yet. He wants to join the Kingsguard, after all. And that he is going to marry for love does not sound as if he is going to marry the sister his father or grandfather has chosen for him. Nor do I believe that incestuous 'real love' is all that common among Targaryen siblings in Westeros. They know they have to marry each other, but that does not mean that they would marry each other if that was not expected of them. Siblings can be close, but they are not romantically drawn to each other on a regular basis.

I'd not be surprised one bit if most of the Targaryens kings and queens who married a sibling had lovers and mistresses. Such things as Aegon-Rhaenys and Jaehaerys-Alysanne should be exceptions, not the rule. And I'm not even sure if Jaehaerys and Alysanne really loved each other as husband and wife. They were brother and sister and that should have helped them to make the best out of their arranged incestuous marriage, but I'd be very surprised if they would have married each other if they had a choice.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sons of the Dragon reading? When was this and is there a discussion forum on it? I couldn't find any.

It is possible Jaehaerys the second married a cousin for love since Aerys and Rhaella had silver hair.

Jaehaerys descends from Aegon V, who had silver hair. Jaehaerys himself had silver hair. Why would he have needed to marry a Targ cousin to get children with silver hair? That's absolutely not necessary. Aerys and Rhaella have inherited their hair colour from their father Jaehaerys, simple as that :)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Sons of the Dragon reading? When was this and is there a discussion forum on it? I couldn't find any.

Jaehaerys descends from Aegon V, who had silver hair. Jaehaerys himself had silver hair. Why would he have needed to marry a Targ cousin to get children with silver hair? That's absolutely not necessary. Aerys and Rhaella have inherited their hair colour from their father Jaehaerys, simple as that :)

If Egg and Aegon all married non valyrian women then Aerys or Rhaella should of not had it.

[Bael's Bastard]

Dark haired mothers (Myriah Martell, Barba Bracken, Elia Martell, Lyanna Stark) tend to have dark haired first borns with Targaryens (Baelor Breakspear, Bittersteel, Rhaenys, Jon Snow), though later children tend to have more Targaryen hair color (Aerys I, Maekar I, Aegon). Do we know who was Egg's first born and what their hair color was?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Dark haired mothers (Myriah Martell, Barba Bracken, Elia Martell, Lyanna Stark) tend to have dark haired first borns with Targaryens (Baelor Breakspear, Bittersteel, Rhaenys, Jon Snow), though later children tend to have more Targaryen hair color (Aerys I, Maekar I, Aegon). Do we know who was Egg's first born and what their hair color was?

We don't know if Barba was dark haired, just like we don't know if Missy was dark haired or Alicent's hair color.

[Bael's Bastard]

It may not have been stated, but it is highly unlikely she didn't have dark hair.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

nvm

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I think Hightowers are fair. Lynesse has blond hair. Alerie has silver hair.

Alys Harroway is probably one of those Maegor's wives.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Tyanna of Pentos might be anothe wife of Maekar.

It may not have been stated, but it is highly unlikely she didn't have dark hair.

proof?

[Bael's Bastard]

proof?

As far as I know there is no proof that she had dark hair, but it is almost certain the dark hair of Bittersteel came from her, not Aegon IV.

As I noted in the other thread, it is implied by GRRM's comment: "Bittersteel is also imposing in appearance, but since his mother was not a Targ, he does not have the coloring. He has the purple eyes, but his hair is black."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1468

Since his mother was not a Targ, he does not have the coloring. What is "the coloring" that he is referring to? Bittersteel has the purple eyes, so this can't be "the coloring" he does not have. It is his hair that does not have "the coloring," because it is black. The implication is that he does not have "the coloring" because of his mother.

Obviously he is not saying that Bittersteel did not get the coloring only because his mother was not a Targ, as if the child of a Targ and non-Targ automatically gets dark hair, whether they or their parent(s) had dark hair or not. Rhaenyra, Aerys I, Maekar, and Aegon all had Targ fathers and non-Targ mothers, at least two of the mothers even had dark hair, and they apparently all had Valyrian hair color.

You could argue that Barba could have had light hair but passed the possibility of dark hair on from a parent, but the dark hair is implied to come through her, not Aegon IV. Personally, I think it is highly unlikely she did not have dark hair herself, but what I think is just that, not proof, which I never claimed to have.

But as I noted in the other thread, Daeron/Myriah and their children and Rhaegar/Elia and their children are the "foundation" of a pattern I think may exist, as these are cases where we know all the details as far as identities and hair color of parents and children.

Jon Snow (who will likely turn out to be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna) being thrown in as what I think is likely to end up being an example, and Bittersteel being thrown in as a possible example. But nothing I have said is being based on Bittersteel, nor even Jon Snow.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

And if Sansa had a child the child could have dark hair from her parents. So?

[Bael's Bastard]

And if Sansa had a child the child could have dark hair from her parents. So?

I am not talking about Sansa, nor am I talking hypothetical children, or could haves, I am talking about the handful of examples we have of Valyrian haired Targaryen fathers and dark haired non-Targaryen mothers, and the hair color of their first born child together.

Whether there is really a pattern or not, or the examples we have are coincidental is one thing, but the examples I have given that I think may point to a pattern are there in the books and SSM, not "what ifs".

Valyrian haired Daeron II and dark haired Myriah Martell had a dark haired first born (Baelor). Valyrian haired Rhaegar and dark haired Elia Martell apparently had a dark haired first born (Rhaenys). Valyrian haired Rhaegar and dark haired Lyanna Stark likely had a dark haired first born (Jon Snow).

Obviously you object to the pattern I think may exist, but as quick as you were to claim "proved wrong," you have not proven any such thing, only given examples of people whose pertinent details we don't know, against examples I gave of people whose pertinent details we do know (with only the hair color of Bittersteel's mother being unconfirmed, and Bittersteel not being essential to the theory that there may be a pattern).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

You started saying that Bittersteel, Jon, Breakspear and Rhaenys are examples that non Targ mothers gave birth to half Targ children and that their first born had dark hair.

Do we know Barba's hair? No. Yet you say that Bittersteel took her hair color.

Do we know Alicent's hair? No. Yet I say that Aegon took Viserys' hair color.

Do we know Missy's hair? No. Yet her son wasn't dark haired.

Do we know Jaehaerys' mother hair? No. still both of the children were not dark haired.

We both based our cases on things we don't know.

You create your pattern out of thin air and you forget the endless possibilities that might exist: Stillbirths, miscarriages, papa maybe etc.

[Bael's Bastard]

No, I started saying "Dark haired mothers (Myriah Martell, Barba Bracken, Elia Martell, Lyanna Stark) tend to have dark haired first borns with Targaryens (Baelor Breakspear, Bittersteel, Rhaenys, Jon Snow) . . ."

You have provided nothing to call that into question, given no examples to challenge it, and continue to avoid all the other examples I gave with the exception of the one where I have the audacity to extrapolate from the SSM that Barba is unlikely to have not had dark hair.

So we do not know for sure Barba had dark hair (though the SSM indicates Bittersteel's black hair is from his mother's side).

We do know for sure that Myriah and Elia did, and we know their first born children did . We know for sure Lyanna had did, and we know Jon does, and if it turns out that Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon it will be another example.

So by all means, keep harping on Barba and Bittersteel as if what I have suggested hinges whatsoever on them. I threw them in as what seemed another example, but take them out and it does nothing to change what I am basing it on (Daeron + Myriah = Baelor, Rhaegar + Elia = Rhaenys).

I am basing the cases I have cited on things we know from ASOIAF, Dunk and Egg, and SSM. I didn't create a pattern out of thin air. I thought I noticed a pattern with the Targaryen/Martell marriages, noticed that if R+L=J, it follows what I thought I noticed to be a pattern in the first two cases, and based on the SSM, that Bittersteel likely follows what I thought I noticed to be a pattern in the first two cases.

Your criticism, on the other hand, amounts to ignoring the examples I've given except one that is not at all essential to my suggestion, and referencing a handful of situations where we do not have any of the details that we have about Daeron/Myriah, Rhaegar/Elia, etc., which I am explicitly basing my suggestion on.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

You now said that Barba may not be dark haired and

You create your pattern out of thin air and you forget the endless possibilities that might exist: Stillbirths (so no more firstborn), miscarriages, papa maybe(so no more Targ father) etc.

[Bael's Bastard]

You now said that Barba may not be dark haired and

You create your pattern out of thin air and you forget the endless possibilities that might exist: Stillbirths (so no more firstborn), miscarriages, papa maybe(so no more Targ father) etc.

I think it highly unlikely that Barba did not have dark hair, but I acknowledge that while the SSM indicates Bittersteel's black hair comes from his mother, we haven't explicitly been told that her own hair was dark, and if wanted to, there is room for GRRM to make Barba light haired passing on black hair from a parent if he wished. Based on his wording I think it unlikely, but I have no problem acknowledging the possibility exists. You can continue to pick on this example, but nothing I have proposed hinges on Barba and Bittersteel.

You just keep repeating the same nonsense, but there is no more substance to your criticisms last post than there was when you said the same things multiple posts ago. You still have not provided one single example which explcitily counters the known examples I provided where the first born of dark haired mother and Valyrian haired Targaryen produces something other than a dark haired child. If you could, I have no doubt you would have done so many posts ago, and I would welcome proof that the examples I have given thus far are just a coincidance.

As for "endless possibilities," I am not aware of any indication by GRRM that any of these couples miscarried, had stillbirth, etc. prior to the birth of their first child. Feel free to direct me to any such indication that may exist. As it stands, you have not presented anything which refutes my suggestion that a pattern may exist, and have provided no example of a Valyrian haired first born from such a union. Needless to say, short of something along these lines, I have been given no reason to regard your criticisms of my suggestion as having any legs thus far.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If Egg and Aegon all married non valyrian women then Aerys or Rhaella should of not had it.

That's not necessary. The Valyrian trait could have been the dominant trait, compared to the traits the mothers had. It's simple genetics. You have the gene for hair colour. Everybody has two alleles of that gene. The combination of alleles decides which hair colour you have. There are several different alleles for hair colour (for the different colour).

Takt Daeron II and Myriah Martell for example. Daeron had Valyrian traits, Myriah had dark hair. It all depends on which allele is the dominant one.

Since the Valyrian trait has survived for 300 years, I'm guessing that the silver hair is dominant here. So this would make Myriah's dark hair recessive compared to Daerons silver hair.

Every child receives one allele from each parent. So Baelor would have received a dark hair colour allele from his mother. However, ít is possible for someone to have a heterozygote combination of alleles (two different type of alleles) and a homozygote combination (two alleles of the same type). If Daeron is a heterozygote, it is possible his recessive trait was passed on to Baelor. We don't know which colour this recessive trait had, but it could have been the same as Myriah's, making Baelor a homozygote for the dark hair colour. Daerons other three sons received his dominant trait, which will come to expression, if combinated with Myriahs hair colour trait, which won't come to expression.

This might be badly explained, but I hope you understand it. Perhaps otherwise Wikipedia might be of help to you. They have drawings and all :)

Recessive traits can be passed on for generations without ever being expressed. As long as the dominant trait is present (and I fully believe the silver hair to be the dominant trait here), the recessive trait will go unnoticed. Especially when the Targaryens keep marrying brother to sister, who will both have at least one silver hair allele, and if not, they'll have two. The chances for the child having another hair colour than silver, gets smaller and smaller, and when one of the parents is a homozygote for the silver hair colour, the child will automatically have silver hair as well.

The fact that both Rhaegar's first born and Daerons first born were dark haired, whilst the next children weren't, is chance. It's coincidence. It happens.

So Aegon had silver hair, so he had at least one allele for the silver hair colour, which was expressed. Since we don't know who his mother was, and who he married, it's difficult to make predictions about the hair colour of his children, and the chance of the alleles of the children not representing a valyrian colour. Egg had three children. If both Egg and his wife were heterozygotes, meaning they both had one allele for the silver hair colour, and one allele for another hair colour, and silver hair was the dominant one here, three out of four children will have silver hair (Mendels second law). This of course doesn't mean that if he has four children, one MUST have another hair colour. It's all about % and chance. It actually means that each child Egg has, will have 75% chance of getting silver hair.

However, if Egg had two alleles for silver hair, all of his children would have received at least one dominant gene, and all of them would have had silver hair. Even if Jaehaerys had only one dominant gene, and his wife had none of the silver hair alleles, each of his children would have had a 50% chance of getting the dominant allele, thus having 50% chance of silver hair. And since Jaehaerys only had two children, this wouldn't be such a strange thing to happen.

Wikipedia is better in explaining this, of course :) But I hope I made sense.

[Anath]

GRRM already stated that he was not very good with dominant genes, alleles and so on. I go for the simplest explanation possible - children inherit their looks from their parents, with an old ancestor popping from time to time in someone's hair or nose.