Non-Targaryen queens of Westeros (and non-Targaryen brides to princes)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

GRRM already stated that he was not very good with dominant genes, alleles and so on. I go for the simplest explanation possible - children inherit their looks from their parents, with an old ancestor popping from time to time in someone's hair or nose.

I understand that GRRM hasn't plotted out the gene pool of all the Targs :)

But I just wanted to point out that it's possible for Aerys and Rhaella to have silver hair, even if Jaehaerys hadn't married a women with Valyrian colouring. I study Medical Biology at the university, so the biologist inside of me was screaming, and I couldn't stop typing for a while :)

[Anath]

I understand that GRRM hasn't plotted out the gene pool of all the Targs :)

But I just wanted to point out that it's possible for Aerys and Rhaella to have silver hair, even if Jaehaerys hadn't married a women with Valyrian colouring. I study Medical Biology at the university, so the biologist inside of me was screaming, and I couldn't stop typing for a while :)

And I was quite interested to read it all. I thought it was a shame GRRM couldn't use something like that but then, I can't either, so I am really not the one to talk. My knowledge of genetics is limited to, "Mom and Dad are blue-eyed and kiddo has those lovely dark eyes? Well, who IS the father?"

[chrisdaw]

Are you fishing for a Sansa Parallel?

[Lord Thaeglei of Frostpyre]

Hmmm.. Let's see.. Here is a definitive list of consorts to Targaryen kings and princes..

King Aegon I Targaryen
-m-
Princess Visenya Targaryen
Princess Rhaenys Targaryen

---

King Aenys I Targaryen
-m-
Lady Alyssa Velaryon

---

King Maegor I Targaryen
-m-
Unknown Targaryen Princess
Lady Jeyne Westerling
Lady Alys Harroway
Lady Tyanna of Pentos

---

King Jaehaerys I Targaryen
-m-
Princess Alysanne Targaryen

---

Prince Aemon Targaryen
-m-
Lady Jocelyn Baratheon

---

Prince Baelon Targaryen
-m-
Unknown wife

---

King Viserys I Targaryen
-m-
Unknown Lady Arryn
Lady Alicent Hightower

---

King Aegon II Targaryen
-m-
Princess Helaena Targaryen

---

King Aegon III Targaryen
-m-
Princess Jaehaera Targaryen
Lady Daenaera Velaryon

---

King Baelor I Targaryen
-m-
Princess Daena Targaryen

---

King Viserys II Targaryen
-m-
Unknown wife

---

King Aegon IV Targaryen
-m-
Princess Naerys Targaryen

---

King Daeron II Targaryen
-m-
Princess Myriah Martell

---

Prince Baelor Targaryen
-m-
Unknown wife

---

King Aerys I Targaryen
-m-
Princess Aelinor Targaryen

---

Prince Rhaegel Targaryen
-m-
Unknown wife

---

King Maekar I Targaryen
-m-
Unknown wife

---

Prince Daeron Targaryen
-m-
Unknown wife

---

Prince Aerion Targaryen
-m-
Unknown wife

---

King Aegon V Targaryen
-m-
Unknown wife

---

Prince Duncan Targaryen
-m-
Jenny of Oldstones
Lady Olenna Redwyne (possible betrothal)

---

King Jaehaerys II Targaryen
-m-
Unknown wife

---

King Aerys II Targaryen
-m-
Princess Rhaella Targaryen

---

Prince Rhaegar Targaryen
-m-
Princess Elia Martell
Lady Lyanna Stark (?)

So, the confirmed Targaryen-blooded queens and consorts were:

Princess Visenya Targaryen
Princess Rhaenys Targaryen

Maegor I's unknown Targaryen sister-wife

Princess Alysanne Targaryen

Princess Helaena Targaryen

Princess Jaehaera Targaryen

Princess Daena Targaryen

Princess Naerys Targaryen

Princess Aelinor Targaryen

Princess Rhaella Targaryen

On the other hand, the non-Targaryen queens and consorts were:

Lady Alyssa Velaryon

Lady Jeyne Westerling

Lady Alys Harroway

Lady Tyanna of Pentos

Lady Jocelyn Baratheon

Unknown Lady Arryn

Lady Alicent Hightower

Lady Daenaera Velaryon

Princess Myriah Martell

Lady Olenna Redwyne (?)

Jenny of Oldstones

Princess Elia Martell

Lady Lyanna Stark (?)

I find it interesting that that first non-Valyrian (Targaryen and Velaryon) Queen Consort of the Seven Kings was a Westerling of The Crag.. This might be a glimpse of prestige the Westerling background was back then.. I know other might say that Maegor I had many wives and his marriage to a Westerling is no big deal.. if i remember correctly, Maegor I did practice polygamy BUT the only women he was married to at the same time were Alys of House Harroway of Harrenhal (scion of a family who were lords of the greatest castle in Westeros) and Tyanna of Pentos (probably a Valyrian herself).. It was never said that Jeyne had any rival queens in her tenure as Maegor's wife.. I think, Jeyne Westerling as not just "a" queen when she was Maegor's wife.. She, like Maegor's Targaryen sister-wife "the" queen of the Seven Kingdoms..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Has it actually been confirmed that Tyanna of Pentos (especially her) and Alys Harroway were Maegor's wives? Because in the preview page of the World Book, that wasn't stated.

Maegor very possibly had been married to the eldest daughter of Aenys, to secure his claim over Jaehaerys more (I vaguely recall Maegor having had 2 Targaryen wives at the least).

Jocelyn Baratheon would have Targaryen blood, due to Orys having been Aegon's halfbrother. And with the information that Valaena Velaryon had a Targaryen mother, I wouldn't be surprised if Daenaera Velaryon (wife of Aegon III) and Alyssa Velaryon (wife of Aenys I) also had Targaryen blood.

The unknown Arryn Queen is known to have had Targaryen blood (because Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her brother Aegon, and the only difference in parentage was their mothers.)

Elia had dragonsblood through Daenerys Targaryen, sister of Daeron II.

Making the list of consorts and possible consorts without Targaryen blood smaller and smaller. :)

[Bael's Bastard]

Since there were supposedly approximately 12 non-Targaryen queens of Westeros during the reign of the Targaryen dynasty, not counting the multiple wives of Maegor the Cruel, we should try to find out which kings had non-Targaryen queens before we finally find out ;-).

Let's start at the end:

1. Prince Rhaegar: Elia of Dorne, and perhaps Lyanna Stark

2. Jaehaerys II married for love, so most likely no Targaryen mother for Aerys and Rhaella.

3. Mystery son of Egg: Also married for love - most likely no Targaryen bride.

4. Duncan Targaryen: Jenny of Oldstones, gave up his claim to the Iron Throne

5. Aegon V Targaryen: Married for love, so likely no Egg for Rhae and Daella

6. Daeron II married Myriah Martell

7. Aegon III had a Velaryon as his second queen

8. Viserys I had two non-Targaryen wives, an Arryn and a Hightower, although the Arryn queen seems to have had Targaryen ancestors.

9. Maegor had multiple non-Targaryen wives, but I guess he had also one or two Targaryen wives.

Other candidates would be:

1. Viserys' II wife/queen, the mother of Aegon IV, Naerys, and the Dragonknight. Apparently there were not much/no Targaryen wives left after the Dance. My guess he was also married to Velaryon (his children all had Valyrian features).

2. Daeron's I queen also seems to have been not a Targaryen: Daena was betrothed to Baelor, and Daeron had no elder sisters. His only other female Targaryen cousin was Naerys, and she was married to Aegon IV.

3. Baelor Breakspear's wife: Valarr does not look as much a Targaryen as Aerion, Aemon, and Egg.

Any idea who I missed?

12 non-Targ queens according to what/who? Also, Baelor Breakspear and Egg's unnamed son and Duncan and Rhaegar were never kings and their wives never queens, so perhaps you can elaborate on what this 12 non-Targ queens claim is based on, so we can try to pin diwn what was actually said and how it might actually apply.

Non-Targaryen wives we know of,

1. Aenys' Velaryon queen

2. Maegor's Westerling queen

3. Maegor's Harroway queen

4. Maegor's Pentos queen

5. Viserys I's Arryn queen

6. Viserys I's Hightower queen

7. Aegon III's Velaryon queen

8. Daeron II's Martell queen

Kings whose wives' identities we know nothing about,

1. Daeron I's queen

2. Viserys II's queen

3. Maekar's queen

4. Aegon V's queen

5. Jaehaerys II's queen

I don't know that it can be deduced who had the rest of the non-Targ wives beside those of the first eight I listed. Some of those who we know had Targ queens could have also had non-Targ queens at some point.

Marrying for love doesn't necessarily mean a non-Targaryen, especially when political betrothals/marriages are mostly going to be to seal alliances with other houses, not Targaryens.

Marrying for love may mean marrying one non-Targ when they were betrothed to another non-Targ, marrying a non-Targ when they were betrothed to a Targ, or marrying a Targ when they were betrothed to a non-Targ. We don't know enough.

[Bael's Bastard]

Has it actually been confirmed that Tyanna of Pentos (especially her) and Alys Harroway were Maegor's wives? Because in the preview page of the World Book, that wasn't stated.

Maegor very possibly had been married to the eldest daughter of Aenys, to secure his claim over Jaehaerys more (I vaguely recall Maegor having had 2 Targaryen wives at the least).

Jocelyn Baratheon would have Targaryen blood, due to Orys having been Aegon's halfbrother. And with the information that Valaena Velaryon had a Targaryen mother, I wouldn't be surprised if Daenaera Velaryon (wife of Aegon III) and Alyssa Velaryon (wife of Aenys I) also had Targaryen blood.

The unknown Arryn Queen is known to have had Targaryen blood (because Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her brother Aegon, and the only difference in parentage was their mothers.)

Elia had dragonsblood through Daenerys Targaryen, sister of Daeron II.

Making the list of consorts and possible consorts without Targaryen blood smaller and smaller. :)

Targ ancestry does not make one a Targ. They are two different things. For instance, if Orys was a bastard son of Aerion (which is rumor, not confirmed), he still wasn't a Targ. And Aemon and Rhaegar were never kings, and their wives never queens.

[TheCrannogDweller]

To put it in a generational context and a direct line of descendancy (reds are branches that died off, blacks are the ones through which the royal line was continued):

1. King Aegon I - Rhaenys/Visenya Targaryen

2. King Aenys I - Alyssa Velaryon => King Maegor - various wives

3. King Jaehaerys I - Alysanne Targaryen

4. Unclear

5. King Viserys I - Lady Arryn/ Alicent Hightower

6. Queen Rhaenyra - Laenor Velaryon/ Daemon Targaryen <=> King Aegon II - Helaena Targaryen

7. King Aegon III - Jaehaera Targaryen/ Daenaera Velaryon => King Viserys II - unknown wife

8. King Daeron I - unknown wife => King Baelor I - Daena Targaryen => King Aegon IV - Naerys Targaryen

9. King Daeron II - Myriah Martell

10. King Aerys I - Aelinor Targaryen => King Maekar - unknown wife

11. King Aegon V - unknown wife

12. King Jaehaerys II - unknown wife

13. King Aerys II - Rhaella Targaryen

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Non-Targaryen wives we know of,

1. Aenys' Velaryon queen

2. Maegor's Westerling queen

3. Maegor's Harroway queen

4. Maegor's Pentos queen

5. Viserys I's Arryn queen

6. Viserys I's Hightower queen

7. Aegon III's Velaryon queen

8. Daeron II's Martell queen

Again, where are Alys Harroway and Tyanna of Pentos, especially Tyanna, stated as Maegors confirmed wives?

[Bael's Bastard]

If they are not confirmed forget them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Rogue Prince story should confirm the ID of Viserys I's Arryn wife. Worth noting that even though she wasn't a Targaryen, she had Targaryen ancestry.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Targ ancestry does not make one a Targ. They are two different things. For instance, if Orys was a bastard son of Aerion (which is rumor, not confirmed), he still wasn't a Targ. And Aemon and Rhaegar were never kings, and their wives never queens.

Wait a minute, Aerion from the Dunk and Egg stories? Is there more than one Orys, because I only know of the Orys Baratheon who started the line and he was born way, way before Aerion was. We don't really know for sure that he was a Targaryen. Rumored to be the bastard son of Aegon I's father, but sometimes rumors are wrong.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The Rogue Prince story should confirm the ID of Viserys I's Arryn wife. Worth noting that even though she wasn't a Targaryen, she had Targaryen ancestry.

Indeed. My guess is that either the mother of the Arryn queen, or the grandmother was a Targaryen.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Maegor's wives;

Jeyne Westerling

Alys Harroway

possibly Tyanna of Pentos

maybe Rhaena Targaryen (rider of Dreamfyre) (she is a Targ but still xd)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Maegor's wives;

Jeyne Westerling

Alys Harroway

possibly Tyanna of Pentos

maybe Rhaena Targaryen (rider of Dreamfyre) (she is a Targ but still xd)

I recall having heard from a reading that Maegor had at least 2 Targaryens wives. Definitly his half sister, and very possibly also Aenys' eldest child and daughter, possibly to strengthen Maegors claim to the throne.

Tyanna of Pentos seems to have been a healer to me, since she appears in the preciew when Maegor had been poisoned and was being healed. Alys most likely was GIS wife, but we don't have any confirmation on that yet

[Lord Varys]

I seem to recall that Ran mentioned that there were about 12 non-Targaryen brides/queens in the family tree when I started this thing. That's nothing I came up with.

But Rhaenys is of course right - it does seem that most of the queens not bearing the Targaryen name where Targaryen descendants through the female branch. This is confirmed for Viserys' Arryn queen in TPatQ - Beesbury claiming that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than Alicent's children - and is most likely also true for all of the Velaryon wives/queens.

We already know that Laenor and Laena Velaryon had Targaryen mothers, and it's thus very likely that Daenaera Velaryon and Alyssa Velaryon had also Targaryen blood themselves. We don't know anything about lesser branches of House Targaryen at the time of the Conquest - Aenar moved with all his family to Dragonstone, and there may have been some distant cousins still around at that time, male or female. Lord Daemon Velaryon and Alyssa Velaryon could be descended from a Velaryon marrying a Targaryen girl from a lesser branch. If Aenys was indeed only born in 7 AC, it's very unlikely that he was married to a daughter of Daemon Velaryon, who died during the Conquest.

Daenaera could be the granddaughter or great-granddaughter from one of Jaehaerys' daughters. It's very likely that Rhaenys Targaryen - the (only?) child of Prince Aemon Targaryen - was married to a consort who also descended from a Targaryen. And we should also keep in mind that Rhaenys most likely would have become Queen Regnant if Jaehaerys had died early, and Aemon had followed his father on the Iron Throne... This possibility must have come up when the match between Rhaenys and Corlys was arranged.

We don't know anything about Corlys' siblings, but he may have had some, and Daenaera could descend from one of them. The whole Addam/Alyn thing from TPatQ most likely reflects Corlys' wishes that a child from his own line should follow him as Lord of Driftmark, not some nephew or grandnephew. This would strengthen the possibility that Addam and Alyn are indeed supposed to be the children of Laenor, rather than Corlys' own.

Prince Aemon being married to Jocelyn Baratheon also seems to suggests that one of Aenys' sisters was married to Orys Baratheon's son. Orys was Aegon's best friend and confidant. Surely one of Aegon's sisters was married to his best friend's son, the heir of Storm's End. Jocelyn may have been one of the younger daughters (or a granddaughter) from that union.

As to Maegor's wives:

It's confirmed that his first wife was one of Aenys' sisters. It has also been mentioned that he did not have only one Targaryen wife, but at least another. The best candidate for that is Aenys' eldest child, a daughter, who was also considered a candidate for the succession while Aegon was still alive (and it was clear that Aenys would follow his father on the Iron Throne). By marrying his niece Maegor would have strengthened his own claim to the Iron Throne. This niece could have been the Rhaena Targaryen who once rode Dreamfyre, but his has yet to be confirmed. We don't know how many children Aenys had - it could have been three (Rhaena, Alysanne, Jaehaerys), it could have been more.

His other wives are simply no known up to this point. But I guess we should not really call them 'queens' - especially not the Westerling wife - because they seem to have been nothing but Maegor's desperate attempts to father any (trueborn) children.

Alys Harroway could be a candidate for a bride. The fact that she presents herself to the public with Maegor and Tyanna could indicate that she was a woman Maegor truly loved - at least for a time. Tyanna could have married him eventually, but it seems to me that excerpt indicated that she came to court with Visenya, who fired Maegor's healers and maesters and had Tyanna see to him. In guess Visenya had officially retired at that time and spent her time on Dragonstone, possibly with young Jaehaerys and Alysanne.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

rogue prince

Rhaena is mentioned as Maegor's "black bride".

[AnnieStace]

Are we allowed to bring spoilers for "The Rogue Prince" here? The story has some information relevant to this thread, but I couldn't find the rules about discussing the leaked info.

Edited for spoilers.

[Lord Thaeglei of Frostpyre]

After the Stark family tree was disclosed, i had this crackpot theory that the wife of King Daeron I the Young Dragon could have been, well ------------- Lady Sansa Stark..

Well, seeing that King Aegon III ordered his second son Baelor to be the once to continue the practice of incentous marriage to his own sister despite his reluctance.. So meaning, a non-Targaryen blood lady was most probably chosen for the young Daeron..

I'm thinking that Lady Sansa was the grandaughter of Cregan Stark, Lord of Winterfell who supported Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen's claim.. Lady Sansa's mother was Lady Jeyne Manderly and we all know that the Manderlys were also one the staunchest supporters of Queen Rhaenyra's claim.. I think it would be wise for Aegon III to marry his eldest son and heir to the daughter of 2 of his mothers most loyal supporters, both very powerful houses to booth..

Aside from the Velaryons and Arryns, the Starks are the best possible match for Aegon III's heir.. The Martells are out of the picture since Dorne was still an independent kingdom back then (note: it was even Daeron I who conquered Dorne), the Baratheons betrayed Rhaenyra's cause and allowed Prince Lucerys Velaryon, Rhaenyra's son and Aegon III's brother to be killed and the Lannisters fought for Aegon II in the last civil war.. Therefore i think a Stark-Manderly daughter is the best choice, of king's blood and stayed loyal to Rhaenyra and Aegon III's cause during the Dance of the Dragons..

[RumHam]

rogue prince

Rhaena is mentioned as Maegor's "black bitch".

That...doesn't sound right.