GRRM inspiration for Valyrian culture and targaryens?

[Theda Baratheon]

I see Valyria as mostly inspired by Ancient Rome and Ancient Egypt.

[intheswamp]

I see a lot more of Rome in Valyria TBH.

• Italian Peninsula = Valyrian Peninsula.
  
• Ancient Empire that spanned most of the known world (to Europeans) that very publically 'fell' and ushered in an era of political instability and decentralisation.
  
• Like the Freehold, a semi-Republican form of government where a group of noble families held the political power (with the Patricians in the Republic, the Empire is obviously more complicated).
  
• Incredibly advanced engineering and metallurgy for the time period; following civilizations were unable to replicate much of their craft. The Westerosi can't make Valyrian Steel.
  
• Broke up the Old Empires of the Near East, in the same way Valyria smashed the Ghiscari.
  
• Prodigious road builders.
  
• Both established colonies across their respective continents that became the foundations for societies centuries after their fall.
  
• Established it's language (Latin) as the root for the majority of European languages, in the same way as the dialects of High Valyrian went on to dominate Essos.
  
• Volcanic destruction common to both Empires (though obviously the devastation of Pompeii and Herculaneum were drops in the bucket compared to what happened to Valyria).
  

Also, both were founded by shepherds.

Ghis was to Valyria what Carthage was to Rome.

[naik2902]

I see Valyria as mostly inspired by Ancient Rome and Ancient Egypt.

also inspired from Arabs. they sleep with thier cousins.

[naik2902]

Wondering how this topic isn't locked yet... None of this is really germane to anything in the series. We can speculate all we want about the inspiration to this series (and perhaps geographic and cultural inspirations are getter kept to the world of ice and fire sun forum) but none of this really adds anything to anyone's understanding of the series, neither does it put forward theories regarding plot to narrative.

It's basically an open ended discussion of which real world culture is historically superior to another...

dont take tension. just leave it to moderators. have some fun.

[Pero the first of His name]

Valyria has elements of Rome and Greece with Atlantis too.

Ghis is Carthage/Egypt/Persia.

Looking at Valyria and Ghis on the map reminds me of Greece and Asia Minor.

[Wolf in Hallowed Places]

So you are saying GRRM based his medieval dragon riding Valyrians on the post 1960s Indian diaspora? I am sorry that is really one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. There are some Indian influences in Song of Ice and Fire, particularly in relation to names (Arya, Meera, Asha), but that is most certainly not one of them. The closest connection I can make between Indian society and the Valyrians is the concept of Aryans or the "noble race", that originated from ancient India.

Agreed. The Valyrians were conquering, riding dragons, magically forging and engineering architecture and equipment and building a mighty civilisation, not graduating with good degrees and running pharmacies. I think the OP says more about its author's own cultural pride (nothing wrong with that) than any of GRRM's influences.

The Aryan connections are apparent however - although the 'Aryan' (ie. Indo-European) culture, language and peoples did not originate in India but migrated there, probably from northern Eurasia. However, Valyrian culture and civilisation draws more from a 'pseudo-historical', semi-mythic conception of Aryan civilisation, as mentioned by Frey Family Re-union above in his reference to 19th century theories of an Aryan Atlantis, than historical Indo-European tribes (although at that point in real-world history, riding domesticated horses would have given the Indo-Europeans almost as much of an advantage as Dragons gave the Valyrians in Planetosi history!).

This kind of Atlantean-Aryan pre-historic super-civilisation has become something of a trope in fantasy, as other posters have pointed out with Melnibone and Numenor (also the Conan mythos and Ulthuan in the Warhammer mythos). I'm sure there's tons more such examples that others can think of.

It's worth noting that most of the other historical civilisations posters have mentioned as influences on Valyria (Rome, Greece, Persia) were also Indo-European (Egypt being the notable exception), and that the Valyrian language as the basis of most Essosi tongues is reminiscent of the Indo-European language family dominating Europe.

[Buckthorn]

Probably Trojan pre-Doom and Roman Empire following Aegon's Conquest.

[WhineHaus]

Wondering how this topic isn't locked yet... None of this is really germane to anything in the series. We can speculate all we want about the inspiration to this series (and perhaps geographic and cultural inspirations are getter kept to the world of ice and fire sun forum) but none of this really adds anything to anyone's understanding of the series, neither does it put forward theories regarding plot to narrative.

It's basically an open ended discussion of which real world culture is historically superior to another...

Did you visit the thread just to say that? It's just a conversation, and you seem to be the only one who has a problem with it so far.

When I read a story, I love to talk about the historical inspiration for the given story and characters. It adds depth and sometimes even more understanding. Open ended as it may be, the conversation isn't without purpose.

[Greymoon]

I think the Achaemenids inspired both Valyria and the Ghiscari Empire.

If Valyria is replaced with the Persian Empire or a Greek polis - since it's a 'free hold' - then, the Ghiscari Empire would be either the Median Empire, or the Persian Empire.

"In 550 B.C. Cyrus (called “the Great” by the Greeks) overthrew the Median empire under Astyages and brought the Persians into domination over the Iranian peoples; he achieved combined rule over all Iran as the first real monarch of the Achaemenid dynasty. Within a few years he founded a multinational empire without precedent—a first world-empire of historical importance, since it embraced all previous civilized states of the ancient Near East." (R. Schmitt http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/achaemenid-dynasty)

• Ruled over: Persia, Elam, Babylon, Assyria, Arabia, Egypt, Lydia, Ionia, Media, Armenia, Cappadocia, Parthia, Drangiana, Aria, Chorasmia, Bactria, Sogdiana, Gandara, Scythia, Sattagydia, Arachosia, and Maka during Darius's reign.
  
• Administrative language: Aramaic
  
• Other notable characteristics: multiple religions, languages and cultures.
  
• The Persian King as "The King of Kings", ruler over lesser "kings" > the satraps
  

The names:

• "Aryan"/Iranian/Valyrian/Targaryen
  
• "the greatest of the Achaemenid Kings" Darius I / Daeron I
  

in terms of inspirational themes for the free cities/slavers bay:

• the Unsullied made me think about the King’s 10 000 "Immortals"
  
• the faith of R'hllor seems inspired by Zoroastrianism
  
• if the 'free cities' are the Greek polis, then it makes sense for the Ghiscari empire to be inspired by the Persian Empire.
  
• Darius constructed trading routes, the longest and most famous of which is the “Royal Road” - that made me think of the old Valyrian road.
  

“To facilitate communication between the different parts of the empire and especially with its capitals, Darius ordered a number of roads to be built, which connected Susa and Babylon with the provincial capitals and made possible a rapid transport of (trade) caravans, post troops, and the king’s inspectors. The best known of these is the so-called “Royal Road” (described by Herodotus 5.52-54) from Susa to Sardis (later extended to Ephesus) through Assyria, Armenia, Cilicia, Cappadocia, and Phrygia and crossing the rivers Tigris, Euphrates, and Halys. In all, its length was 450 parasangs (see below) or 13,500 stades (i.e., about 2,600 km; Herodotus 5.53), and it was furnished with 111 royal post-stations (stathmoí) with the best quarters (ibid. 5.52.6).” (R. Schmitt http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/achaemenid-dynasty)

Other inspirations: Atlantis, Pompeii, and Greco-Roman cultures.

[Greymoon]

also inspired from Arabs. they sleep with thier cousins.

Marrying first cousins is not an 'Arab' custom. It was also prominent in ancient rome and ancient greece...and it's legal in quite a few coutries. In such societies were this kind of endogamous marriage is culturally accepted, there are usually rules that define who you may and who you may not marry. Usually a difference is made between cross-cousins and parallel cousins. But anyway, a cousin is not a sibling, and sibling incest is a taboo in most societies (all I think) around the world.

[xSilence]

n u m e n o r. n u m e n o r. n u m e n o r.

I cant belive no one sees it !!!!!!!!!!!

that was my first thought too xD

[Mikken]

that was my first thought too xD

Numenor was inspired by the Atlantis myth, which was inspired by the Minoan civilization.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Numenor was inspired by the Atlantis myth, which was inspired by the Minoan civilization.

I don't think that Atlantis was inspired by the Minoan civilization since it was something that Plato made up

[Vengeance]

And Crete didn't disappear into the ocean, the Inbetweeners have been there and everything

[Brad the Bold]

GRRM is clearly mining multiple historical and fictional conquering civilizations that have fallen into ruin.

That said, I don't see how post colonial India fits that paradigm at all.

[thecryptile]

I don't think that Atlantis was inspired by the Minoan civilization since it was something that Plato made up

This is a subject that is debated by classicists. Many feel that Plato was repeating an Egyptian story about a real historical event. Some identify this event as the collapse of Minoan civilization, others believe it reflects the Sea People's invasions.

As for Valyria: Equal parts Rome (Valyrian Roads, the Empire), Atlantis (the Doom), and Melnibone (Dragonlords, Incest).

I don't see any Indian influence in Valyrian culture.

[Naathi Prince]

the idea of a precursor "master" tribe who "taught us everything we know" is a common one through the world. The Aztecs, Romans, and many other cultures have the idea of "the ones who came before". Typically, these peoples were mostly eliminated in a cataclysmic event due to their sins against the gods. Valyria is an amalgamation of these cultures, with dragon lore added to make them extra powerful. Its similar to the idea of the Children of the Forest. They're not Tolkein's elves, but they are the same type of character. The "magical" version of the master culture, typically less numerous as a result of humanity's excesses.

[RedDeadWedding]

Wondering how this topic isn't locked yet... None of this is really germane to anything in the series. We can speculate all we want about the inspiration to this series (and perhaps geographic and cultural inspirations are getter kept to the world of ice and fire sun forum) but none of this really adds anything to anyone's understanding of the series, neither does it put forward theories regarding plot to narrative.

It's basically an open ended discussion of which real world culture is historically superior to another...

No it seems like an interesting and relevant topic to me. And no one is saying any culture is superior

[thenedstark]

I don't see the India inspiration at all for Valyria. However I do see the connection to ancient Rome. A weird magical race of people who believe in blood magic and invaded a foreign land on dragons? That's kind of similar what Romans did to much of Europe a part from the magic and dragons. The roman capital changed a couple of times from Rome to Ravenna to Constantinople after the fall of the old western empire. Kings landing is awfully similar to Constantinople. As far as the blood magic is concerned, there was a bit of such beliefs in the ancient Roman religion. Later, the Romans, under Constantine, adopted the religion of their conquered subjects: Christianity. Similarly the valyrians adopted the faith of their conquered subjects: Faith of the Seven.

[The Witch Queen of Angmar]

numenors :P those guys sound like they had a pretty strong progeny :D the seed is strong