Dany's hypocrisy re Jorah Mormont

[Khal Shaggydog]

Jorah is such a great character, just totally badass, and really a fish out of water geographically speaking. Guy is a Bear from the North, and he's trapsing through the Dothraki Sea, the Red Waste, and then back and forth around the slave cities. Tough as all hell.

The platinum blonde thing is hilarious - he goes against his values and disgraces himself to try and win the favor of a younger blond. Then he 180s with a vengeance to try and win the favor of yet another young blond. Imagine if he met Cersei Lannister!!

I still think she should have kept both of her knights around. She's playing chess when everyone is playing cyvasse. The fact is that Jorah stuck by her since the day she married Drogo (he completely changed his allegiance from Viserys to Dany early on), and risked his own life several times to save her (around Drogo's death, etc).

[Kevin Stark]

Jorah made the choice to continue communicating with Varys long after he had pledged fealty to Dany. Nobody made his a) follow Dany B) spy on her c) sell slaves and get exiled in the first place.

Jorah deserves no pity or forgiveness. He screwed up his own life because he was a weakness for platinum blondes. Why was Dany obligated to keep an advisor she can't trust? He's pathetic. He shamed his otherwise awesome family and failed his new ally. Boo-hoo. How do Jorah's personal failures make Dany a hypocrite?

BTW, he's the one who talked her into going to Slaver's Bay on the first place. His advice is why she didn't head to Pentos. He was partially responsible for the Meereenese knot.

Basically This

[Winter's Knight]

Jorah made the choice to continue communicating with Varys long after he had pledged fealty to Dany. Nobody made his a) follow Dany B) spy on her c) sell slaves and get exiled in the first place.

Jorah deserves no pity or forgiveness. He screwed up his own life because he was a weakness for platinum blondes. Why was Dany obligated to keep an advisor she can't trust? He's pathetic. He shamed his otherwise awesome family and failed his new ally. Boo-hoo. How do Jorah's personal failures make Dany a hypocrite?

BTW, he's the one who talked her into going to Slaver's Bay on the first place. His advice is why she didn't head to Pentos. He was partially responsible for the Meereenese knot.

And done. Can we leave Dany alone for a bit? Poor kid can't catch a break.

[fangirl000]

Better the spy you know. I think Dany should have kept him around, but not placed as much trust in him. Let him prove himself all over again. And considering Jorah's still alive and still trying to get back to her, and considering that she's been having second thoughts about whether his was the "betrayal for love" (I don't think it was), I'm pretty sure Jorah is about to get back into Dany's goodbooks. (Either that, or he'll die tragically on the battlefield, saving Tyrion's life, because Tyrion is just lucky like that).

[Lady Hana]

Yeah, I really love Ser Jorahs character -and cannot understand that Dany banished him :crying:

Okay, it was a dumba** thing to tell Varys every Move they make around Essos, but he didn´t mean to harm her.

Besides, tactically this was a really bad decision by her. Jorah always protected her and gave her good counsel. And he really loves and cares for her - anybody is interested in her but in the dragons.

Better the spy you know. I think Dany should have kept him around, but not placed as much trust in him. Let him prove himself all over again. And considering Jorah's still alive and still trying to get back to her, and considering that she's been having second thoughts about whether his was the "betrayal for love" (I don't think it was), I'm pretty sure Jorah is about to get back into Dany's goodbooks. (Either that, or he'll die tragically on the battlefield, saving Tyrion's life, because Tyrion is just lucky like that).

I totally agree to this. :agree:

I think that Dany really loves Ser Jorah, but is too hypocrite and flippant by now to understand. :stillsick:

[David Selig]

Wait, so Jorah had to repent for being born into a family of Northern nobles? How is it hypocritical that Dany doesn't want repentance from him for this?

Jorah betrayed her and was really lucky she didn't execute him. I don't get the common whining that it was unfair. She was very lenient. Almost any other main character would've executed Jorah on the spot, as expected by the standards of the world they live in.

[Sansa_Stark]

Wait, so Jorah had to repent for being born into a family of Northern nobles? How is it hypocritical that Dany doesn't want repentance from him for this?

Jorah betrayed her and was really lucky she didn't execute him. I don't get the common whining that it was unfair. She was very lenient. Almost any other main character would've executed Jorah on the spot, as expected by the standards of the world they live in.

Jorah could have chosen to betray his liege. Many river, vale and storm lords all did.

It was his choice in the end to help lead armies against the Targs as I recall.

[mormont]

Yeah, I really love Ser Jorahs character -and cannot understand that Dany banished him :crying:

As you'd expect, I quite like his character too - but it's absolutely right that Dany banished him.

In the end, she banishes him after the sewer mission. And she does it because he proves, even after everything, that he does not realise how badly he's served her. He hasn't changed. He doesn't beg forgiveness for what he's done: he gets angry with her, makes excuses, insists that he was right about Arstan and Xaro instead of talking about how he was wrong to write to Varys. He's not changed: he's still trying to control her, to tell her what to do, to manufacture a situation where he's the only one she trusts and so she's dependent on him. He says she's his Queen but he thinks he knows better than her, even after he gets caught selling her secrets to Varys. It's not what he's done in the past that she banishes him for: it's because he's shown that he can't be relied on in future. Dany needs loyalty: Jorah wants to tell her what to do. These things are incompatible.

Okay, it was a dumba** thing to tell Varys every Move they make around Essos, but he didn´t mean to harm her.

He must have known that his information could harm her: in fact, it nearly did (see the wineseller, for example).

Besides, tactically this was a really bad decision by her. Jorah always protected her and gave her good counsel.

Much of his counsel was good, but it was also self-interested. Dany sees this and calls him out on it even before the revelation that he's been betraying her. The revelation of his betrayal shows much of that past counsel to be hypocritical, also: Jorah would warn her against others, all the while knowing that he himself had betrayed her trust, and keeping that from her.

And he really loves and cares for her - anybody is interested in her but in the dragons.

In his way, he does love her - but it's a dangerous way, for Dany.

I think that Dany really loves Ser Jorah, but is too hypocrite and flippant by now to understand. :stillsick:

She cares for him, but has no romantic feelings for him.

[sightofthesun]

IMO, Dany does seem to have hypocritical tendencies (who doesn't) but she can hardly be called a hypocrite in this case.

What should she have done? Cut off some of his fingers as payment for his past crimes? :laugh:

[Usrnmhsnomning]

One could argue that Jorah kept in contact with Varys because Varys appeared to be both protecting Dany and indirectly providing her with information about the goings on of Westeros. Not that Dany cares, usurpers dogs and all.

[Isalie]

One could argue that Jorah kept in contact with Varys because Varys appeared to be both protecting Dany and indirectly providing her with information about the goings on of Westeros. Not that Dany cares, usurpers dogs and all.

One could, except not even Jorah tries to sell that bit. It isn't that I think he's any worse than most other characters in the books in his attempt to sell a child to Varys in order to return to Westeros, but I don't see how Dany was in the wrong here.

I dislike a lot of the Dany storyline, but the issues that she gets crap in is pretty disturbing. "She should know better than to go for the attractive blue haired guy, after all, Jorah loves her"

That said, since this is a Dany thread, what really irks me is her hipocrisy. The Iron Throne was taken through conquest and lost through conquest - you have no moral right to it god damnit! ;) Other than that, I'm looking forward to her depression and Dragons don't sow story that I suppose is about to kick into gear.

[RumHam]

Jorah could have chosen to betray his liege. Many river, vale and storm lords all did.

It was his choice in the end to help lead armies against the Targs as I recall.

Jeor was still head of House Mormont at that time, so if Jorah fought in Robert's Rebellion at all it wasn't really his choice. He certainly wasn't leading any armies.

[Dany Girl]

That said, since this is a Dany thread, what really irks me is her hipocrisy. The Iron Throne was taken through conquest and lost through conquest - you have no moral right to it god damnit! ;) Other than that, I'm looking forward to her depression and Dragons don't sow story that I suppose is about to kick into gear.

since she plans on taking it back through conquest I disagree that it's hypocritical. Yes she's bitter her family lost the throne, but Robert didn't have the "moral" right to usurp his king. Calling anything regarding conquest morally correct or incorrect is erroneous in my opinion.

She doesn't expect to walk in and be given her throne, she knows it's going to be a fight (or conquest) therefore planning to reclaim her family's lands is not hypocritical.

[Isalie]

since she plans on taking it back through conquest I disagree that it's hypocritical. Yes she's bitter her family lost the throne, but Robert didn't have the "moral" right to usurp his king. Calling anything regarding conquest morally correct or incorrect is erroneous in my opinion.

She doesn't expect to walk in and be given her throne, she knows it's going to be a fight (or conquest) therefore planning to reclaim her family's lands is not hypocritical.

That throne ain't hers by a long shot, they stole the land and now someone else stole it from them. To keep going on about how it is her birthright is hypocritic, especially at that point that she was going on about how the people of Westeros wanted her. Sure, they'll relish the thought of another war, it's so much fun to have your land stolen and your daughters raped.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Ok Jorah is a good guy but really????

The guy only didn't kill her beacause he loved her, not because he sweared fealty.

And he talks to Dany as if she is his equal, and he has already sworn fealty.

Ugh and talk about lust on a girl 3 times younger than you :ack:

[Dany Girl]

That throne ain't hers by a long shot, they stole the land and now someone else stole it from them. To keep going on about how it is her birthright is hypocritic, especially at that point that she was going on about how the people of Westeros wanted her. Sure, they'll relish the thought of another war, it's so much fun to have your land stolen and your daughters raped.

Then by your logic any Stark that reclaims WF is a hypocrite. The throne belonged to her family for 300 years, had Robert not usurped the throne it would still be in her family. WF belonged to the Starks for 8000 or so years, Bolton has now stolen it. Should the Starks just allow that, since he took it by conquest? No, reclaiming the land that should have been yours is not hypocrisy, Dany in fact did not lose the throne. Her father and brother did by being cruel and stupid. Dany has as much "right" to want to reclaim her family's throne as the Starks have the right to reclaim WF.

It would be different if she expected to show up and have Tommen say, "oh, this throne is rightfully yours. Let me collect my kittens and toys, and you can have it back, no problem!" But that's not what she thinks. Shes says she'll take what's hers with fire and blood (as her ancestors did). She's spent 2-3 years building an army to help her achieve her goal. Building an army shows she's heading in as a new conquer, not expecting to just get it without a fight.

and the country is already at war, her waging war isn't going to do any more damage than is already occurring. In fact, showing up with dragons will likely end the war faster because no one wants to fight dragons. People will be bending knee a lot faster to a Dragon Queen then they did to Joff/Tommen/Robb/Renly/Stannis. Dany also doesn't allow her army to rape, and a good chunk couldn't if they wanted to, so again, this is no more threat than those already in play.

People really need to look up the word hypocrite, 90% of claims on these threads claiming hypocrisy are in fact not hypocrisy.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Then by your logic any Stark that reclaims WF is a hypocrite. The throne belonged to her family for 300 years, had Robert not usurped the throne it would still be in her family. WF belonged to the Starks for 8000 or so years, Bolton has now stolen it. Should the Starks just allow that, since he took it by conquest? No, reclaiming the land that should have been yours is not hypocrisy, Dany in fact did not lose the throne. Her father and brother did by being cruel and stupid. Dany has as much "right" to want to reclaim her family's throne as the Starks have the right to reclaim WF.

It would be different if she expected to show up and have Tommen say, "oh, this throne is rightfully yours. Let me collect my kittens and toys, and you can have it back, no problem!" But that's not what she thinks. Shes says she'll take what's hers with fire and blood (as her ancestors did). She's spent 2-3 years building an army to help her achieve her goal. Building an army shows she's heading in as a new conquer, not expecting to just get it without a fight.

and the country is already at war, her waging war isn't going to do any more damage than is already occurring. In fact, showing up with dragons will likely end the war faster because no one wants to fight dragons. People will be bending knee a lot faster to a Dragon Queen then they did to Joff/Tommen/Robb/Renly/Stannis. Dany also doesn't allow her army to rape, and a good chunk couldn't if they wanted to, so again, this is no more threat than those already in play.

People really need to look up the word hypocrite, 90% of claims on these threads claiming hypocrisy are in fact not hypocrisy.

Well said!!!

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Then by your logic any Stark that reclaims WF is a hypocrite.

No, because no Stark has passed law stating that abandonment of your home removes it from your possession. What makes Dany a hypocrite is SAYING one thing and 100% DOING another. No Stark alive that can reclaim Winterfell has ever passed a law as a monarch stating that fleeing ones home removes your ownership rights to it, thus no Stark alive that reclaims Winterfell would be a hypocrite.

hyp·o·crite

Noun

A person who indulges in hypocrisy.

hy·poc·ri·sies

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

hy•poc•ri•sy

Dany professes the belief that abandoning your home is tantamount to abandoning your rights to it. She does not adhere to this belief personally. Ergo, hypocrite.

[Thaune]

Jorah deserves no pity or forgiveness. He screwed up his own life because he was a weakness for platinum blondes. Why was Dany obligated to keep an advisor she can't trust? He's pathetic. He shamed his otherwise awesome family and failed his new ally. Boo-hoo. How do Jorah's personal failures make Dany a hypocrite?

"He screwed up his own life because of a weakness for platinum blondes."

By all accounts, the guy fell in love with the wrong person. It doesn't make him evil, it doesn't make him less of a man.

Why he wouldn't "deserve" forgivness is beyond me, especially when you see what he's done since then.

Jorah comes from an awesome family and he IS awesome himself.

He just made a couple of mistakes along the way, and all caused by falling in love. It happens.

But it's easier to sit there and spew out judgements than take the whole situation into context.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

"He screwed up his own life because of a weakness for platinum blondes."

By all accounts, the guy fell in love with the wrong person. It doesn't make him evil, it doesn't make him less of a man.

Why he wouldn't "deserve" forgivness is beyond me, especially when you see what he's done since then.

Jorah comes from an awesome family and he IS awesome himself.

He just made a couple of mistakes along the way, and all caused by falling in love. It happens.

But it's easier to sit there and spew out judgements than take the whole situation into context.

The man is lusting over a girl 3 times younger.

Speaks to Dany like her equal and not like a liege.

Could of killed her.

Sure a couple of mistakes.....