What happened to make Aerys lose respect for Tywin around 270-275AL?

[Mladen]

Unless the humiliation happened the next day after they slept together. Aerys may have seduced her and then tossed her aside after proving he could have her one more time. Wouldn't that explain the insulting remark in front of the twins?

And in that case he wouldn't have been asking about her breasts.

[Mladen]

Aerys was obviously just jealous and trying to bring the couple down from their happiness of the healthy twins. Aerys was bitter and mean. But after everything I read and all the shit Aerys put Tywin through. Tywin was steadfast, he never quit on aerys no matter what Aerys did or said, and he said a lot of shit about TYwin, like non-stop shit-talker. So why would TYwin all of a sudden resign as hand because of one comment about Joanna's breasts? No NO NO, that makes no sense at all, for Tywin to resign, something hella serious had to happen. Like Aerys having his guards grab Joanna out of her bed and take her to the kings chambers for sex.

You forget that Aerys has done so in front of his children, in front of entire court and that laugh was, most likely, reminded Tywin of how people laughed at his father. Aerys basically hit him at every weak point - his pride, children, memory of father.

[UnmaskedLurker]

And in that case he wouldn't have been asking about her breasts.

Why not? It is called sarcasm. Or if you prefer, a rhetorical question.

[stilluf]

I wasn't really buying the theory until the dots were connected by the dragon dreams. Now it at least seems possible, and explains why Tywin hates Tyrion so much (in addition to his wife's death). We shall see, we shall see.....

[Humble Maester]

I think the wording implies that when Aerys made his comments about Joanna, she and the twins had only just arrived from Casterly Rock to Lannisport where the tournament was held (the children were being "presented to the court". I doubt Joanna sneaked out of Casterly Rock the previous night and then returned to get her children the next day. Of course one who wants to force the text to abide by one's theories could try to argue that but it seems far fetched the lady of the Rock could sneak back and forth like that from the greatest fortress in the seven kingdoms without anyone noticing her).

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think the wording implies that when Aerys made his comments about Joanna, she and the twins had only just arrived from Casterly Rock to Lannisport where the tournament was held (the children were being "presented to the court". I doubt Joanna sneaked out of Casterly Rock the previous night and then returned to get her children the next day. Of course one who wants to force the text to abide by one's theories could try to argue that but it seems far fetched the lady of the Rock could sneak back and forth like that from the greatest fortress in the seven kingdoms without anyone noticing her).

I am sorry--I won't get my copy of the book until next week. I may be confused on the timeline. I thought these events happened at KL and not Lannisport--at the 10-year anniversary of the coronation of Aerys. That is when I thought Aerys might have slept with Joanna. If the "insult" happened at KL, it would make sense that you don't necessarily get presented to court the minute you arrive--especially if you arrive at night so you might have to wait until the next morning--or if the king keeps you from being presented until you give into his seduction attempts. If someone can give me the exact quote, I can answer more clearly.

[UnmaskedLurker]

sorry--double post.

[Humble Maester]

I am sorry--I won't get my copy of the book until next week. I may be confused on the timeline. I thought these events happened at KL and not Lannisport--at the 10-year anniversary of the coronation of Aerys. That is when I thought Aerys might have slept with Joanna. If the "insult" happened at KL, it would make sense that you don't necessarily get presented to court the minute you arrive--especially if you arrive at night so you might have to wait until the next morning--or if the king keeps you from being presented until you give into his seduction attempts. If someone can give me the exact quote, I can answer more clearly.

That celebratory tournament where the comment was made by Aerys was held by Tywin in his honour in Lannisport

At the great Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC, held to commemorate Aerys’s tenth year upon the Iron Throne, Joanna Lannister brought her six-year-old twins Jaime and Cersei from Casterly Rock to present before the court. [Court referring to the fact that king held his court at Lannisport for quite some time]

...great Lannisport tourney of 272 AC

Those should be the relevant bits, it's clear where it was held. Of course, as I said in my previous post, you can still twist that to anything about how Joanna arrived late at night (why he would leave from Casterly Rock to Lannisport to arrive late at night, that I do not know, or that he sneaked away to have good times with Aerys the coocoo. Still the logical explanation to me seems that she left with what retainers and ladies she had and arrived to the celebration, and presented the children rather soon after.

E: a bit of clarification.

[UnmaskedLurker]

That celebratory tournament where the comment was made by Aerys was held by Tywin in his honour in Lannisport

Those should be the relevant bits, it's clear where it was held. Of course, as I said in my previous post, you can still twist that to anything about how Joanna arrived late at night (why he would leave from Casterly Rock to Lannisport to arrive late at night, that I do not know, or that he sneaked away to have good times with Aerys the coocoo. Still the logical explanation to me seems that she left with what retainers and ladies she had and arrived to the celebration, and presented the children rather soon after.

E: a bit of clarification.

Hurray--my book just arrived--early. I turned to the page and it is the Anniversary Tourney--not Lannisport Tourney. Court moved from Lannisport back to KL in 268, so the Tourney was in KL, not Lannisport. I don't know the custom in term of whether she and her children would be "presented before the court" immediately upon arriving. But according to the text, Aerys wanted to "put [Tywin] back in his place." The insult was the public way--screwing his wife was the private way. They were in KL, so if Aerys orders his KG to bring Joanna to him, Tywin cannot stop it. Aerys could have made it clear to Joanna that she really did not have a choice. Given what we know about Aerys and how much he hated Tywin at that point, I don't see how Aerys could have resisted bedding Joanna one last time. The fact that they had been lovers before makes it more plausible that Aerys would have felt entitled to bed her again.

[Maid So Fair]

Anyone else finds the description of baby Tyrion remarkably similar to the descriptions of Aerys's stillborn children? I never put much stock in this theory but along with Aerys having a history of deformed children and Joanna being dismissed by Rhaella (and the dragoon dreams etc) it does make me wonder

[Humble Maester]

Hurray--my book just arrived--early. I turned to the page and it is the Anniversary Tourney--not Lannisport Tourney. Court moved from Lannisport back to KL in 268, so the Tourney was in KL, not Lannisport. I don't know the custom in term of whether she and her children would be "presented before the court" immediately upon arriving. But according to the text, Aerys wanted to "put [Tywin] back in his place." The insult was the public way--screwing his wife was the private way. They were in KL, so if Aerys orders his KG to bring Joanna to him, Tywin cannot stop it. Aerys could have made it clear to Joanna that she really did not have a choice. Given what we know about Aerys and how much he hated Tywin at that point, I don't see how Aerys could have resisted bedding Joanna one last time. The fact that they had been lovers before makes it more plausible that Aerys would have felt entitled to bed her again.

given at the great Lannisport tourney of 272 AC, hostedby Lord Tywin Lannister in celebration of Aerys II’s tenth year upon the Iron Throne.

I still think it's pretty clear the Lannisport tourney was the 10 year jubilee tourney. I didn't quote enough of the line last time, sorry, but it's right there. You are right about the holding of court bit, though the court Joanna presented the children was still at Lannisport so my point doesn't really change.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I still think it's pretty clear the Lannisport tourney was the 10 year jubilee tourney. I didn't quote enough of the line last time, sorry, but it's right there. You are right about the holding of court bit, though the court Joanna presented the children was still at Lannisport so my point doesn't really change.

Your book seems to be different than mine. Mine says: "At the great Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC, held to commemorate Aerys's tenth year upon the Iron Throne, Joanna Lannister brought her six-year-old twins Jaime and Cersei from Casterly Rock to present before the court." (p. 116) On the prior page, it stated that the "court returned to King's Landing in 268 AC, and governance resumed as before ..." With those two statements, it seemed clear the tourney was in KL because she was presented to court and court was back in KL. Very strange if our books have contradictory information. I am not sure what to think.

ETA:

Again, according to my book, the Lannisport tourney was to commemorate the birth of Viserys in 276, 4 years after the incident in question. I don't know what is the issue with your book, but I am pretty sure that Joanna was insulted (and bedded) in KL and not Lannisport.

[Humble Maester]

Your book seems to be different than mine. Mine says: "At the great Anniversary Touney of 272 AC, held to commemorate Aerys's tenth year upon the Iron Throne, Joanna Lannister brought her six-year-old twins Jaime and Cersei from Casterly Rock to present before the court." (p. 116) On the prior page, it stated that the "court returned to King's Landing in 268 AC, and governance resumed as before ..." With those two statements, it seemed clear the tourney was in KL because she was presented to court and court was back in KL. Very strange if our books have contradictory information. I am not sure what to think.

The second part I am quoting comes later, mentioned in the part about the Year of the False Spring. It's offhand remark about the Lannisport tourney, comparing it to the great tourney lord Whent had. It make it pretty clear though that Lannisport tourney = 10th year jubilee tourney, imo

[UnmaskedLurker]

The second part I am quoting comes later, mentioned in the part about the Year of the False Spring. It's offhand remark about the Lannisport tourney, comparing it to the great tourney lord Whent had. It make it pretty clear though that Lannisport tourney = 10th year jubilee tourney, imo

Thanks--found that quote. Didn't think to look there. Very strange. The information on p. 116 strongly implies (but not explicitly states) that the 272 tourney was at KL. On p. 117, the discussion of the 276 tourney in Lannisport is stated as an effort of reconciliation, which would not make sense if 4 years earlier the tourney was also in Lannisport. But then on p. 124 the text clearly states the 272 tourney was in Lannisport. I wonder if this is an editing mistake.

[Humble Maester]

Thanks--found that quote. Didn't think to look there. Very strange. The information on p. 116 strongly implies (but not explicitly states) that the 272 tourney was at KL. On p. 117, the discussion of the 276 tourney in Lannisport is stated as an effort of reconciliation, which would not make sense if 4 years earlier the tourney was also in Lannisport. But then on p. 124 the text clearly states the 272 tourney was in Lannisport. I wonder if this is an editing mistake.

I guess we are none the wiser :P

[bent branch]

snip

I'm not really responding to this particular post. I just want to acknowledge your incredibly accurate insight as to the 10 year celebration of Aerys' reign. Well done.

Now, I want to say that I consider A+J=T has been confirmed as far as GRRM's intent. It is obvious that he has been laying down clues intentionally for the careful reader all along. The reason we can know this is Tywin said "I cannot prove that you are not mine." What AWOIAF showed us is:

Why Tywin suspected that Tyrion isn't his.

This is really all that is needed to prove author's intent. The argument that people who saw the clues were just imagining it or were showing wish fulfillment is passé. It is time to acknowledge they were right and you were wrong. Come on, be a grown up about it. For those who don't understand how this has been foreshadowed, go to any of the numerous threads (including this one) on this subject and learn something about how GRRM writes. It is time for the conversation to move from being about whether GRRM intended to imply A+J=T to why GRRM has set up this situation.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'm not really responding to this particular post. I just want to acknowledge your incredibly accurate insight as to the 10 year celebration of Aerys' reign. Well done.

Now, I want to say that I consider A+J=T has been confirmed as far as GRRM's intent. It is obvious that he has been laying down clues intentionally for the careful reader all along. The reason we can know this is Tywin said "I cannot prove that you are not mine." What AWOIAF showed us is:

Why Tywin suspected that Tyrion isn't his.

This is really all that is needed to prove author's intent. The argument that people who saw the clues were just imagining it or were showing wish fulfillment is passé. It is time to acknowledge they were right and you were wrong. Come on, be a grown up about it. For those who don't understand how this has been foreshadowed, go to any of the numerous threads (including this one) on this subject and learn something about how GRRM writes. It is time for the conversation to move from being about whether GRRM intended to imply A+J=T to why GRRM has set up this situation.

Hey now :)

Thank you very much!

Yeah I was happy to see I was right about the 10 year anniversary.

Obviously I completely agree with you that the hints are there and having them in the same place at the same time was a very deliberate move on GRRM's part. Tywin obviously had reason to doubt Tyrions paternity, as he said, then with his last words "You are no son of mine". And with the 1000 other hints that link Tyrion to house Targaryen, there can be no doubt any longer.

UnMaksed Lurker and Humble Maester

I believe it is a mistake as well. The 272 tourney was definitely at KL, but the book does say 2 different locations at 2 different points. Editing mistake.

[Direwolves FTW]

This is a great compilation of evidence, and I have to say the parts about Tyrion having dragon dreams really makes me wonder.

I'm just personally hoping he's not a targ, because I think it would be a more meaningful end to Tyrion being Tywins trueborn son after everything that has happened so far. Ideally I would love to see Tyrion help Dany in all the ways his father never let him help in the governing of the Rock, and helping someone his father meant to murder no less. Then if he survives when it's all said and done, I hope he gets the Rock as a final big middle finger to Tywin

[Suzanna Stormborn]

This is a great compilation of evidence, and I have to say the parts about Tyrion having dragon dreams really makes me wonder.

I'm just personally hoping he's not a targ, because I think it would be a more meaningful end to Tyrion being Tywins trueborn son after everything that has happened so far. Ideally I would love to see Tyrion help Dany in all the ways his father never let him help in the governing of the Rock, and helping someone his father meant to murder no less. Then if he survives when it's all said and done, I hope he gets the Rock as a final big middle finger to Tywin

Thanks :) I did work hard on it.

IMO, If Tyrion finds out he is a member of the House that Tywin was humiliated by over and over again, and eventually rides a dragon, that will be his reason to give Tywin the big middle finger. Like "You thought I was a worthless embarrassment Dad, you made me boss of the plumbing in CR, well look at me now. :)"

[Direwolves FTW]

Thanks :) I did work hard on it.

IMO, If Tyrion finds out he is a member of the House that Tywin was humiliated by over and over again, and eventually rides a dragon, that will be his reason to give Tywin the big middle finger. Like "You thought I was a worthless embarrassment Dad, you made me boss of the plumbing in CR, well look at me now. :)"

Also a completely valid point haha

It's so hard for me to make decisions on what I think is going to happen next because all of the character are so interwebbed as this point I'm like ok, if Tyrion is a Targaryen then that means this for Jon and this for (f?)Aegon and this and this and this... Ugh

Thanks again for this though, I'm adding it to my pile of evidence for A+J=T