Mme Erzulie Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 That's deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Word, Agulla. And over every single country on a woefully clichéd map full of geographical impossibilities. Meanwhile, the band of heroes bickers, someone dazzles someone else with their singing and someone finds true love. Ugh. .... shit. *Tears up plot outline of novel* (j/k) I believe he actually rejected that at some point. i believe in the Malloreon Belgarath said something like "Good versus evil? That's tricky. I'm sticking with Us versus Them." In the Tamuli he had his 'heroes' commit the biggest mass murder in their world's history across two continents. Anyone who was against htem, or just plain inconvenient was slaughtered. a weak king was drowned in a barrel of wine. And then these 'heroes' chuckled over it whilst telling each other to 'be nice'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ealasaid Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Songs! I hate it when fantasy books contain songs! We don't know what they sound like, so we have to make up our own "medievalish" sounding tune as we read words which are usually barely related/important to the story. The farmer went to market He did! He did! The whore played in his pockets She did! She did! Hey! Ho! The townsfolk looked low For what spilled out o' farmer's pockets They did! They did! I HATE IT!! Tolkien was the WORST at this! Well his songs were a bit better than the "Farmer's Pocket" and were important to the story. Although I I tend to skip over them now in rereads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watcher Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Also! Why does the Princess Escaping From an Arranged Marriage OMG always end up with the very first guy she sets eyes on outside of the castle? You'd think the girl would want to shop around; enjoy her new-found freedom before settling down with one of those annoyingly callow youths. J.V. Jones' The Book of Words turned that particular cliche on its head though, I was gratified to see. Rebound, happens even in fantasy novels I have my share of virulent hatred for prophecies which get fulfilled exactly as foretold. I agree, I hate prophecies. It's like I read the prophecies, I know what's going to happen, so why bother finishing it. In AGoT I was scared when I read the "The Stallion That Mounts the World" line. I was a lot happier then I should've been when Dany's baby was stillborn. Other pet peeves. fighters with samurai like weapons, Katana, going against fully plated warriors. The katana is a great sword that is devastating against lightly or unarmored opponents, but it can't penetrate heavy armor. This is more of a movie pet-peeve but when the hero goes into battle without a helmet. The helmet is there for a reason, without one he'll be dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 helmet is there for a reason, without one he'll be dead. similar to this one is the one where dude can get smote nine times in the head with a broadsword, helmet or no, and be just fine. (i blame RPGs for this silliness.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 For movies it's a simple reason: They want to be able to see the main character's face. It's really hard to act with a helmet on. Same reason they ripped off Spidey's mask all the time during Spider-man 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HimOfTwoFaces Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I believe he actually rejected that at some point. i believe in the Malloreon Belgarath said something like "Good versus evil? That's tricky. I'm sticking with Us versus Them." I think that was in the Belgariad, when they were visiting the Ulgos. It's been a while since I've read it, though. I absolutely hated that line. It seemed to me that he was basically saying, "Don't think about these things. That will just make your head hurt. Just cheer for whomever I tell you to cheer for. Rest assured that in my books, the good guys will be the good guys no matter what evil acts they commit, and the bad guys will be the bad guys no matter what redeeming traits they have. In fact, my bad guys don't have any redeeming traits. Doesn't that make everything simpler for you? You can all thank me later." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Stranger Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 biggest pet peeve in fantasy: a complete lack of anyhting resembling culture evolved over time and distance. Tolkien and Tad Williams are the obvious exceptions to this. GRRM actually fails pretty badly in this category, though RJ is hands-down the shittiest. you're telling me that an entire hackneyed genre of fiction loosely based around the mythic history of Europe is going to end up with entire planets full of individuals speaking the same language, with the same accents, using identical vernacular? you're telling me that said hackneyed Mythic Europe genre will tend to create worlds where religion is some kind of curio, or aside? patent nonsense. if planets are full of humans, linguistic divergence will fuck them all to hell, and they will use these idiolects to spread calumnies about their neighbors being witches or papists or subGeniuses or whatever, prior to burning them at Ye Olde Stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 hackneyed Mythic Europe obvious solution = no more books about white people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Hackneyed Mythic Japan is so much better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcelo Rebelo Firqoralas Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Totally agree. Authors like Eddings seem to think that their heroes can cheerfully commit any number of crimes against their enemies, yet still be regarded as the clear "good guys". For them morality isn't something dependent on what a character does, but rather on whether the character belongs to a sort of pre-decided "team". There's that scene in The Belgariad where Garion chases after some poor Murgo and gets pissed off when Mandorallen or someone kills him, because it was "his Murgo" and he wanted to kill him. I must say that I don't really mind this kind of stuff. I always cheer for the guys with the best lines or those who looks coolest holding a broad sword (that's why I almost always cheer for the bad guys in movies). I've never understood why morals must come into it, I guess adventure fiction is a lot like any other sport for me. The tragedy is that an author like Tolkien, who had very strong views on the nature of good and evil, often gets lumped in with prats like Eddings. Tolkien's good guys were, however, good because of their actions, not because they were arbitraily declared "good" by the author. Good guys could fall, while bad guys could be redeemed. What bad guys got redeemed in LotR? Not Sauron, not the Orcs, not even Sauruman or Gollum. I actually have more problems with Tolkien's attitude than with Eddings', because Tolkien tries to peddle his own questionable ideologies, where Eddings is aware that his heroes probably aren't very moral, but realizes that a story requires some for of emotional investment to be entertaining. My own pet peeve: Tolkien/D&D style creatures. It's just so bloody unimaginative and boring. And if you absolutely must have elves and dwarves in your story, at least come up with your own names for them. These creatures feel like a colonizing army that has invaded the the imagination of many fantasy writers and is now suppressing the native culture. Think Brandin and Tigana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Tolkein ripped off the elves and dwarves himself. Sure he made up his own culture (and language) but elves and dwarves were around before Tolkein, he just made them 'popular'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 What bad guys got redeemed in LotR? Not Sauron, not the Orcs, not even Sauruman or Gollum. I said bad-guys *could* be redeemed. Gollum, for instance, comes damn close, and would have done so if Sam hadn't accused him of sneaking. As it is, the very fact that Middle-earth has Gollum to thank for destroying the Ring still leaves him in a high state of moral ambiguity. Even Sauron, after the events of The Silmarillion, actually briefly repents, an occurance that Tolkien suggests may have been part of a genuine desire for forgiveness (Sauron, however, couldn't quite bring himself to submit for judgement, and so fell back into evil). The Orcs are another issue, and one that Tolkien had all sorts of moral problems with. He was highly uncomfortable with the idea that an entire race of thinking people could be born inherently evil, and so fiddled round with their origins to try and explain it away. He later tried suggesting that Orcs were bred from beasts (i.e. they weren't really people), but he never really resolved the problem to his satisfaction. But at least he tried - which is more than can be said for the likes of Eddings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisFunctional Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Good thread....I truly love a good Eddings/Brooks bashing. However, I personally think Jordan is one of the best fantasy authors (not that there is much of a challenge there...) Whoever mentioned the whole "couple that seem not to like eachother, but end up madly in love" thing: you don't get out much do you? This is fairly common among all people, real and imagined. One of the other things mentioned was that quick 6 month to a year mastery of the sword. People learn at different rates and have differing potential in all things. One person may choose to play basketball his whole life, yet be no better than he was when he started, despite having more knowledge of the game. On the other hand, another someone may pick up a basketball for the first time, and almost never miss, becoming a great player in short order. Swordsmanship is like basketball in that it is NOT a totally skill based thing. Strength, speed, endurance, concentration, and the like are almost as important. While training with a sword your whole life may give you these things, so may just about any physical activity, or just a natural inclination. Swordfighting is also notorious for not giving you a good rematch when you lose, so a bad day tends to be a last day. My gripes are with overly magical worlds (Let us use our rods of disinigration to slay those priests of the dark lord and steal their healing potions, they work wonders on a hangover), and the whole elf/dwarf/gnome/hobbit/what have you thing (look they are like humans, only short and without any variety of personality). I think of them as superclicks. ("ok, all you thin, pasty faced, arrogant, yet generally good natured people that are handy with either a bow or magic, you get to sit at the table that looks like it is grown from the tree rather than carved") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyman Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I agree with the above poster about words such as elf/dwarf/hobbit and the like, and I will go even farther to say I hate "wizards", "dragons" and "magic", though I'll put up with them if the writing's good (GRRM). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauvka Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 NOt just for fantasy, but all fiction in general: I get annoyed when the synopsis mentions any of the three romances: Unlikely Romance-- either the two characters snipe at each other, or it's a princess and the farm boy scenario, or both Doomed Romance-- thanks for telling me the ending beforehand, grrr and Fated Romance-- those pesky prophesies again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzlebane Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Fantasy authors named Terry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waterdancer Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Yeah, there are those chiche plot lines which a discerning reader can predict long before the end of the book. Yeah, Tolkein's songs annoy the crap out of me. But my biggest pet peeve is.... FANTASY COVER ART!!! Whether a book is kick-ass, ordinary, or painful to read - the art sucks. It looks so positively juvenile that I don't even want to read something so shallow looking in a public place. I've thought for the longest time that if the cover art was revamped, more people would be into trying out fantasy / sci fi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Wolf Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 you're telling me that an entire hackneyed genre of fiction loosely based around the mythic history of Europe is going to end up with entire planets full of individuals speaking the same language, with the same accents, using identical vernacular? Try Greg Keyes Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone. I swear Keyes must have minored in anthropology. Many different languages and cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Fantasy authors named Terry.You hate Pratchett's books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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