Heresy 65

[Morienthar]

Actually one of the theories to Why the magic has returned to the Starks (that all of Ned's children are wargs) is that Tully/riverland blood.

Which one is that??

Can you point me to the thread.

[alienarea]

Actually one of the theories to Why the magic has returned to the Starks (that all of Ned's children are wargs) is that Tully/riverland blood.

That would exclude Jon Snow most likely.

[Black Crow]

Notwithstanding having no Targaryen blood, Bran is even stepping into Bloodraven's footsteps. He has Tully blood, true, but that has no more direct links to magic than Tyrell blood (except in the Stark-Tully children).

In other words, if Jon is to go the path of Ice, he might as well not be a Targaryen, but Stark only. IF Jon is the restorer of balance, him choosing Winter is not very logical. Him choosing the wall (or the Neck?) that divides them seems more logical.

Unless, of course, it's the clash of ice and fire that restores balance, and Jon needs Targ blood only to unbalance Danaerys in said struggle (because three dragons and a Dany obliterate one Jon, or something).

That's actually a very interesting thought.

We've long held on heresy that Jon isn't Azor Ahai and that his (possible) Targaryen blood is a bit of a red herring in that we believe what's crucial is that he is the son of Lyanna Stark and a son of Winterfell, but perhaps the argument goes beyond a denial that he is Azor Ahai and beyond also the suggestion that as half Targaryen half Stark he represents the balance between Ice and Fire.

Instead, he may indeed represent balance, but rather as the counter-balance to Azor Ahai the Dragon Queen.

[Black Crow]

Actually one of the theories to Why the magic has returned to the Starks (that all of Ned's children are wargs) is that Tully/riverland blood.

Not quite, there are two theories at work here; there is a theory that Bran's greenseeing may come from the Tully/Riverlands blood, just as Bloodraven's comes from his Blackwood/Riverlands blood.

The warging comes from the direwolves.

[avernite]

Not quite, there are two theories at work here; there is a theory that Bran's greenseeing may come from the Tully/Riverlands blood, just as Bloodraven's comes from his Blackwood/Riverlands blood.

The warging comes from the direwolves.

While it is a theory, I find it none too likely. You might as well say Bran's warging comes from his first-men Stark blood and Bloodraven's from his first-men Blackwood blood. The closest to greenseeing we have apart from those two is Jojen of the first-men to end all first-men blood (well, apart from beyond the wall maybe).

Moreover, Warging is rather present beyond the Wall - implying that, too, is more closely related to the first men. In other words, I can posit Stark blood + luck giving a generation of magicians (what with the strong links of Starks, Weirwoods, Winterfell, the Wall, and maybe the CotF).

For Tully, it requires (to me) presuming that Blackwood blood is Riverlands first, First Men second, to even give ANY external hints that their blood might lead to magic. Otherwise, Tully is just bland Westerosi blood with no links that I know to any magic.

[STRONG LIKE BEAR]

- Tully is an Andalized First Men house

- Riverlands seem to have been the HQ for the COTF (God's Eye, Isle of Faces)

That's pretty much it for supporting points for that idea

[addicted to snow]

In my opinion, the only thing remotely 'magical' about House Tully is the Blackfish, who I feel is somehow 'close' to the rivers. Just as the book often implies that male Mormonts have many characteristics of their house sigil (a bear), the Blackfish (in my opinion) has many attributes of a fish... The books suggest that there is a strong affinity between him & water... perhaps that is what I am trying to say...

Edited to Add the following: As I mentioned in the previous thread, Cat Tully, in my opinion represents the absence of magic in a way that few other characters do...

[King of Winters]

That's actually a very interesting thought.

We've long held on heresy that Jon isn't Azor Ahai and that his (possible) Targaryen blood is a bit of a red herring in that we believe what's crucial is that he is the son of Lyanna Stark and a son of Winterfell, but perhaps the argument goes beyond a denial that he is Azor Ahai and beyond also the suggestion that as half Targaryen half Stark he represents the balance between Ice and Fire.

Instead, he may indeed represent balance, but rather as the counter-balance to Azor Ahai the Dragon Queen.

Seeing as I think AAR, TPTWP and LH are the same, and Jon, he could bring balance to Ice and Fire with both his Stark and Targ blood.

Side note, has it been mentioned if Dawn is Dragonsteel or not?

[Toccs]

Seeing as I think AAR, TPTWP and LH are the same

There is certainly a case to be made for tPtwP and AAR being the same, or rather sharing a common origin, the Last Hero does not really fit at all though.

The Last Hero, rather than being a solitary saviour figure is merely the last survivor of a band of thirteen heros, none of who's names are recorded. Also the Last Hero is purely a story of the past,unlike tPtwP and AAR, there is nobody looking for a reincarantion of the Last Hero to suddenly show up.

Side note, has it been mentioned if Dawn is Dragonsteel or not?

I would lean towards it not being Dragonsteel since is it supposdely made from the metal of a falling star.

Although, the thought occurs that if the Dothraki "dragon origin/meteor impact" story holds any weight then maybe Dawn is Dragonsteel and the term has a different meaning then the obvious Valyrian Steel interpretation :dunno: .

[Tyryan Lannister]

I would lean towards it not being Dragonsteel since is it supposdely made from the metal of a falling star.

Although, the thought occurs that if the Dothraki "dragon origin/meteor impact" story holds any weight then maybe Dawn is Dragonsteel and the term has a different meaning then the obvious Valyrian Steel interpretation :dunno: .

I find this to be far more likely, given that Valyrian steel kind of needs Valyria to exist to be made, and then needs Valyria to be a powerful trading partner for it to reach Westeros, neither of which were happening at the time (EDIT: regardless of which timeline you believe in, unless for some reason you think that all this shit happened less than 2000 years ago, in which case :bang: ) of the Long Night and the founding of the major First Men houses of Stark, Dayne, Blackwood, Royce, Bracken, Tully, etc. It also goes in line with the fact (stated by Martin in an interview) that there once were dragons all over Terraros* and also all the old stories about dragonslayers in Westeros dating from before even the Andals came, let alone the Targaryens.

*Terraros is just my name for the world as a whole, seeing as Martin has yet to actually provide us with one (the cheeky little bastard)

[Black Crow]

Seeing as I think AAR, TPTWP and LH are the same, and Jon, he could bring balance to Ice and Fire with both his Stark and Targ blood.

Toccs has properly answered on the Last Hero, who obviously never came back and certainly wasn't Bran the Builder, but as to Jon Snow, once again I think because he is so clearly associated with the North and the Old Gods, both by blood, by upbringing and by his direwolf, his balancing role is to counter-balance the champion of Fire.

[JonNonRegis]

I find this to be far more likely, given that Valyrian steel kind of needs Valyria to exist to be made, and then needs Valyria to be a powerful trading partner for it to reach Westeros

Yes.

The only other possibility is that what is called Valyrian steel was independently developed in Westeros during or before the Long Night, and used for the Last Hero's legendary blade. Then... Westeros forgot how to make steel for no reason, so that when the Andals showed up, it was a huge advantage for them because they had it and the First Men didn't.

Hmm, yeah... I don't think so. If the Last Hero actually had something known now as dragonsteel, it was not Valyrian steel, nor any other sort of steel.

*Terraros is just my name for the world as a whole, seeing as Martin has yet to actually provide us with one (the cheeky little bastard)

I've taken to calling it GRRMworld, which is pronounced "grimworld," which seems very apt.

[Black Crow]

I'm not much inclined to get too hung up on Valyrian steel. I think that latterly it was certainly associated with Valyria but it didn't necessarily originate there. There's a useful precedent here in Highland broadsword blades; at one time the better ones were imported from Ferrara in Italy and anyone who was anyone claimed to have a blade by Andrea di Ferrara; further back top-quality German mediaeval swordsmiths such as Ingelri had more swords bearing their name than ever they forged themselves.

Basically what I'm saying is that Dragonsteel and Valyrian steel may indeed be one and the same; that steelmaking of this quality does predate the rise of the Valyrian empire but that latterly it became associated with the Dragonlords of Valyria.

[Urrax]

Toccs has properly answered on the Last Hero, who obviously never came back and certainly wasn't Bran the Builder, but as to Jon Snow, once again I think because he is so clearly associated with the North and the Old Gods, both by blood, by upbringing and by his direwolf, his balancing role is to counter-balance the champion of Fire.

Yes, but I lean to the thought that the champions of Ice and Fire will bring things into balance not by directly opposing each other, but by taming the excesses of their own elements, bringing them under control and using them in a constructive way .

[King of Winters]

There is certainly a case to be made for tPtwP and AAR being the same, or rather sharing a common origin, the Last Hero does not really fit at all though.

The Last Hero, rather than being a solitary saviour figure is merely the last survivor of a band of thirteen heros, none of who's names are recorded. Also the Last Hero is purely a story of the past,unlike tPtwP and AAR, there is nobody looking for a reincarantion of the Last Hero to suddenly show up.

I think that the stories of AAR, TPTWP and LH are about the same person in the Long Night, but told from different cultures. LH from the First Men, AAR from the Asshai'i and Red Priests and TPTWP maybe from the ealry Valyrains, since we only hear about TPTWP being connected to the Targs, like Rhaegar and Egg marrying Aerys and Rhaella.

[Toccs]

I think that the stories of AAR, TPTWP and LH are about the same person in the Long Night, but told from different cultures. LH from the First Men, AAR from the Asshai'i and Red Priests and TPTWP maybe from the ealry Valyrains, since we only hear about TPTWP being connected to the Targs, like Rhaegar and Egg marrying Aerys and Rhaella.

But why would the Asshai'i who are quite literally a world away from Westeros, be telling a story about it's history? Why also would those stories about Azor Ahai (which come from Asshai), date to contemporary with the Valyrian/Ghisari wars (around 5000 years ago) rather then any Westerosi event?

The Jade Compendium records stories of Azor Ahai slaying beasts who's "blood burst in to flames" a description which eerily matches the way Drogon's blood reacts to the air upon his wounding. Was AA slaying dragons? Even Stannis thinks something along the lines of (emphasis mine) "even Azor Ahai needed help to win his wars".

So AA was fighting multiple wars against what may well have been dragons . . . are we sure we want to equate this story to Westeros and the Others?

I would also point out again, that the stories of Azor Ahai Reborn and the Prince that Was Promised are, (regardless of ultimate identity) both explicility prophecies of the future.

The story of the Last Hero is on the other hand, is explicilty a tale from the long forgotten past. There is no hint of "and one day he will return" in this tale, rather the Last Hero did what he did and it is all said and done now.

[Lord Ravenstark]

There is certainly a case to be made for tPtwP and AAR being the same, or rather sharing a common origin, the Last Hero does not really fit at all though.

The Last Hero, rather than being a solitary saviour figure is merely the last survivor of a band of thirteen heros, none of who's names are recorded. Also the Last Hero is purely a story of the past,unlike tPtwP and AAR, there is nobody looking for a reincarantion of the Last Hero to suddenly show up.

I would lean towards it not being Dragonsteel since is it supposdely made from the metal of a falling star.

Although, the thought occurs that if the Dothraki "dragon origin/meteor impact" story holds any weight then maybe Dawn is Dragonsteel and the term has a different meaning then the obvious Valyrian Steel interpretation :dunno: .

Another theory for Dragonsteel is a mystical alloy of bronze and obsidian. What makes me with a weird feeling is that neither FM, who used bronze, nor Andals, who used iron and wrote the book, used about steel.

[wolfmaid7]

But why would the Asshai'i who are quite literally a world away from Westeros, be telling a story about it's history? Why also would those stories about Azor Ahai (which come from Asshai), date to contemporary with the Valyrian/Ghisari wars (around 5000 years ago) rather then any Westerosi event?

The Jade Compendium records stories of Azor Ahai slaying beasts who's "blood burst in to flames" a description which eerily matches the way Drogon's blood reacts to the air upon his wounding. Was AA slaying dragons? Even Stannis thinks something along the lines of (emphasis mine) "even Azor Ahai needed help to win his wars".

So AA was fighting multiple wars against what may well have been dragons . . . are we sure we want to equate this story to Westeros and the Others?

I would also point out again, that the stories of Azor Ahai Reborn and the Prince that Was Promised are, (regardless of ultimate identity) both explicility prophecies of the future.

The story of the Last Hero is on the other hand, is explicilty a tale from the long forgotten past. There is no hint of "and one day he will return" in this tale, rather the Last Hero did what he did and it is all said and done now.

.

Well one things for sure if Azor Ahi was slaying Dragons that may well rule out Dany because I can't see her slaying her own children. In the FM history didn't they come from Esoss?

[Black Crow]

While I agree that whatever the monster slain by Azor Ahai might really have been, it certainly sounds like a dragon - or at least more like a dragon than anything to be encountered in Westeros, there's no getting away from the fact that Azor Ahai is unambiguously hailed by Mel as the champion of Fire.

[Urrax]

.

Well one things for sure if Azor Ahi was slaying Dragons that may well rule out Dany because I can't see her slaying her own children. In the FM history didn't they come from Esoss?

In fact only one dragonslaying by AA is mentioned. (Actually it doesn't call it a dragon but it has to be one.)