Heresy 65

[Urrax]

How could Drogo warg into Drogon, unless he had warg powers himself?

Via whatever mysteries went on in that tent and then that fire. It's pretty clear that the three dragons are in effect wargs of Drogo, Rhaego, and MMD.

[tbc]

Via whatever mysteries went on in that tent and then that fire. It's pretty clear that the three dragons are in effect wargs of Drogo, Rhaego, and MMD.

I pity the poor dragon that got MMD. It definitely drew the short straw.

[Urrax]

I pity the poor dragon that got MMD. It definitely drew the short straw.

I now disremember, but one of the dragons, I believe Rhaegal, was the most cuddly with Dany when small, which would make it Rhaego, leaving Visarion as MMD. But I may have them confused.

[tbc]

I now disremember, but one of the dragons, I believe Rhaegal, was the most cuddly with Dany when small, which would make it Rhaego, leaving Visarion as MMD. But I may have them confused.

I've read it suggested elsewhere that Viserion is female, and pregnant by the end of Dance. Viserion is certainly more docile than either Rhaego or Drogon.

[Urrax]

I've read it suggested elsewhere that Viserion is female, and pregnant by the end of Dance. Viserion is certainly more docile than either Rhaego or Drogon.

I think we have been told that dragons are unisex. So I guess any could lay an egg. How the egg gets fertilized is another question.

And my recollection of which dragon is which could easily be confused.

[tbc]

I think we have been told that dragons are unisex. So I guess any could lay an egg. How the egg gets fertilized is another question.

And my recollection of which dragon is which could easily be confused.

Ah, yes. I think Aemon tells us that.

[Urrax]

Returning to the original questions, does anybody know whether you can warg from one host to another without touching home base first?

[tbc]

Returning to the original questions, does anybody know whether you can warg from one host to another without touching home base first?

Varamyr sort of does, in that he's trying to warg into Thistle when he's killed, and then wargs into One Eye.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes. I think Dany will end up visiting Valyria on her way to Westeros, to see the Ruins. And she may find a clue as to what caused The Doom.

Just to sat something about the Others. I was thinking the other day and though that if it turned out that the Others were being controlled by the COTF for their own ends, then I'd be disappointed a bit. I mean I've always thought that the Others are a great danger on their own and control themselves and if they are just being used by the Children for something, whether it be to attack man, or another agender. I wouldn't mind if the Children were working together towards something, but I'd be disappointed of they just turned out to be controlled by the Children.

This is something i don't like myself, i equate the COTF on the same level as the WW,they (COTF) sing the song of Earth while the WW sing the song of Ice which essentially is death.From what i get from the text be it symbiotic or mutual the WW are connected to "the cold" which is something totally different.So i don't think is is something the COTF can control,i think they neglected to inform man about it.Needless to say that they being mum on the entire thing is to their advantage as this will lead to a drastic decrease in men and no need of the wall,so they win no matter.

I also think it was genius the COTF choosing to learn the speech of men it fosters understanding and manipulation if it calls for that.

[Black Crow]

Returning to the original questions, does anybody know whether you can warg from one host to another without touching home base first?

No

This is the whole point of the Varamyr prologue. Skinchangers can move between different hosts only up to the point of true death, ie; when their own body dies. At that point their soul is drawn to and trapped in the primary host and can't get out again. Skinchanging days are over and unless the host dies first the lodger will gradually fade away.

Therefore in answer to your supplementary question, on the basis of what we're told in that prologue, if Jon dies then his soul will warg into Ghost and there he'll remain, unable to get out again.

It is possible there is a get-out clause in the slightly different nature of the warging process vis a vis skinchanging, but at this point in time we really don't know.

[Black Crow]

Via whatever mysteries went on in that tent and then that fire. It's pretty clear that the three dragons are in effect wargs of Drogo, Rhaego, and MMD.

Warging isn't the right term because its not a voluntary process by the individuals concerned. The three souls certainly appear to have been transferred but it was all down to the practice of worked magic by third parties - first MMD and then Dany.

[Urrax]

Varamyr sort of does, in that he's trying to warg into Thistle when he's killed, and then wargs into One Eye.

So it's at least a possibility that MMD skinchanged Drogo into a dragon egg, leaving only the catatonic body that Dany smothered; and similarly skinchanged the unborn Rhaegal into another egg; and when burning skinchanged herself into the third egg. And that this process is sufficiently different from Varamyr's that the souls in question could be skinchanged into another body, thus making possible Drogo's return in line with MMD's prophecy. And something of the kind with Rhaegal, meeting her prophecy about Dany having another child.

[alienarea]

So it's at least a possibility that MMD skinchanged Drogo into a dragon egg, leaving only the catatonic body that Dany smothered; and similarly skinchanged the unborn Rhaegal into another egg; and when burning skinchanged herself into the third egg. And that this process is sufficiently different from Varamyr's that the souls in question could be skinchanged into another body, thus making possible Drogo's return in line with MMD's prophecy. And something of the kind with Rhaegal, meeting her prophecy about Dany having another child.

Hold that idea for a second and take a step back to Heresy 65 when I quoted Bran IV, AGoT, again and suggested that when the cold came for the first time a number of CotF greenseers died as well and didn't have anything to warg into (like Varamyr floating free for a moment).

Now back to your idea. We have free floating CotF greenseer spirits, who do like MMD does when dying. Move their spirits into another lifeform. Dragon eggs aren't around and elk kind of dull, so they go for the ones the CotF couldn't defeat - First Men. They host in First Men babies who then grow up to become White Walkers. And a female greenseer spirit hosts in a female baby and later becomes the queen of the Night King.

Because of the human host body White Walkers can lay with wildling women and produce offspring which results in skinchangers and wargs.

And the CotF need a human greenseer to keep them in the Land of Always Winter. As Bloodraven fades he can't hold them that's why they are back and the CotF need Bran.

He is the last greenseer because he will give peace to the White Walkers (somehow ...) thus creating summer.

[Frey family reunion]

No

This is the whole point of the Varamyr prologue. Skinchangers can move between different hosts only up to the point of true death, ie; when their own body dies. At that point their soul is drawn to and trapped in the primary host and can't get out again. Skinchanging days are over and unless the host dies first the lodger will gradually fade away.

Therefore in answer to your supplementary question, on the basis of what we're told in that prologue, if Jon dies then his soul will warg into Ghost and there he'll remain, unable to get out again.

It is possible there is a get-out clause in the slightly different nature of the warging process vis a vis skinchanging, but at this point in time we really don't know.

But we do have this little bit from Varamyr in ASOS:

"Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you."

Thus a little part of Orell goes to eagle and then into Varamyr?

ETA: Which makes for interesting possibilities. If dragon bonding has some similarities to skinchanging, and if in fact Kahl Drogo resides within Drogon, if Dany has bonded with Drogon does a little bit of Drogo go into Dany?

[Black Crow]

Thus a little part of Orell goes to eagle and then into Varamyr?

Oh indeed, as Varamyr explains, the skinchanger enters into a second life in its permanent host, before eventually fading aay, but the point at issue here is that although "living" still, he (have we ever encountered a female skinchanger - the Stark wargs excepted?) can't bed-hop into other hosts.

[Urrax]

While we are on the subject of advanced skinchanging, has anyone suggested that Coldhands may be Bloodraven skinchanged into an ex-NW wight, in order to guide Bran to the cave? After all, Old Nan said greenseers ride elks.

ETA: I know there is a theory that Coldhands is Bloodraven, which has always seemed pretty improbable given Bloodraven's situation. The question here is whether it's been suggested that he skinchanged into a wight.

[Black Crow]

It has been suggested, but I would say that in general in Heresy we tend to be a little wary of ascribing too much power to Bryn Blackwood and assuming that he's skinchanging into everything in sight - particularly when it comes to crows.

Some of us even have our suspecions that he and the three-eyed-crow are not one and the same. Its an old argument, but just compare their respective speech patterns and thought processes.

[Urrax]

... Some of us even have our suspecions that he and the three-eyed-crow are not one and the same. Its an old argument, but just compare their respective speech patterns and thought processes.

Maybe he and Ghost are one and the same. The only albinos in the story. :cool4:

[Black Crow]

Or simply, that as Jon recognises of Ghost, he "belongs to the Old Gods"

[tbc]

It has been suggested, but I would say that in general in Heresy we tend to be a little wary of ascribing too much power to Bryn Blackwood and assuming that he's skinchanging into everything in sight - particularly when it comes to crows.

Some of us even have our suspecions that he and the three-eyed-crow are not one and the same. Its an old argument, but just compare their respective speech patterns and thought processes.

Is the basic thrust of the argument that BR might not be there willingly?