Heresy 65

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 65, the latest edition of the sometimes controversial thread which takes a proper look at what’s really going on in the Song of Ice and Fire.

We refer to it as heresy because we challenge the popular orthodoxy that the Others are the ultimate evil enemy who will eventually be defeated by the Starks and the Targaryen dragons. This is the Song of Ice and Fire; and the Otherlanders represent only one side of a conflict what has been waged since time began.

Thus we not only question assumptions that the Others are evil, but perhaps more controversially also take leave to doubt that the Children of the Forest are the good guys who will teach Bran how to defeat the Others. There is, let us assert at once, not a single scrap of evidence in the books that the Children and the First Men ever fought shoulder to shoulder against anybody, while the weirwood faces of the white walkers in the show point to a connection with the Old Gods admitted but no yet explained by GRRM. On the contrary the Children abandoned Men to their fate in the Long Night and the First Men returned the compliment by abandoning the Children when the Andals came to Westeros. In short we suspect they are not the cuddly tree-huggers they pretend and as a greenseer Bran has been secured by them not to save Westeros but to provide them with a window into the realms of men.

Instead, prompted by the clues which litter the text we look closely at the Celtic and Norse mythological sources which underpin the magic, and we try to understand the real nature of the protagonists. GRRM has likened the Others to the Sidhe made of ice which in turn exactly mirrors what we’ve established of Mel, Moqorro and Victarion, revealing all three as being Fire made flesh.

And then there’s the Wall itself, which some of us believe may not be not a defensive structure at all but is the hinge or boundary between the Realms of Men and the magic Otherlands beyond. It was raised and maintained by great (and dark) magic, and is not improbably the cause of the Long Night, perhaps built by the children to create a bastion, cleared of men by the white walkers where they could take refuge when men broke the Pact. It is certainly, according to Ygritte, made of blood. Thus we suspect that like the Berlin Wall, the Wall must come down to achieve a resolution of the conflict and restore the balance of the seasons and everything else, for to quote Janet Clouston: “Blood built it, Blood stopped the building of it, and Blood will bring it down”

In doing that, Jon Snow may indeed be destined to bridle the Ice, but as King of Winter rather than as AzorAhai, while Danaerys Targaryen, may have to “go back” – to where the Targaryens and their dragons came from - into the smoke and salt of the Smoking Sea of Valyria in order to sort out the Fire.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun, but we do very firmly reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed and that the children are not so cuddly as they pretend.

We’ve long since given up providing links to previous heresies since it moves so damn quickly, but in honour of the occasion Heresy 50 contained a series of essays looking at a number of topics in more detail.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84200-heresy-50/

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if you’re new to the game and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[King of Winters]

What's also worth considering here is that if we do take it that R+L=J then there is a precedent in Bloodraven; he too is the son of a Targaryen father and one of the old families, in his case through nurture and eventually perhaps the very fact of being on the Wall it is his Blackwood blood which has brought him into the service of the Old Powers. Similarly while Jon may have Targaryen blood, we've been arguing for some time that its the Stark blood which will win out as a son of Winterfell rather than as a son of Valyria.

-Black Crow

What I think with that is a First Man and Valyrian blood union is important in some way. Bloodraven kind of proves that with his Greenseeing and Skinchanging abilities.

So I think that Jon is important because he's a union of the two ancient bloodlines and he's alive at the right time to balance both Ice and Fire.

[Black Crow]

On the surface yes - it seems so obvious - and as I've said if he is both Ice and Fire he can't be Azor Ahai the champion of Fire. Yet while Bryn Blackwood also mingles both Targaryen and First Men blood its the latter which is important, and all the indications are that Jon's Winterfell blood is likewise more important than his supposed Targaryen blood so that in the end the balance may not exist.

Instead I think its a plot device whereby if Jon is ever revealed as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen it won't mean he'll take the throne but rather have the opportunity to refuse it.

[Urrax]

And surely Dany is the champion of Fire. As the great emancipator of Essos she has as it were thawed the rigid ice of slavery. (As Jon has cooled the fiery anarchy of the wildlings.) As we have discussed earlier, she seems destined eventually to enter the Smoking Sea and undo the Doom - whatever that was - as Jon will enter the Land of Always Winter and undo whatever governs that.

[King of Winters]

On the surface yes - it seems so obvious - and as I've said if he is both Ice and Fire he can't be Azor Ahai the champion of Fire. Yet while Bryn Blackwood also mingles both Targaryen and First Men blood its the latter which is important, and all the indications are that Jon's Winterfell blood is likewise more important than his supposed Targaryen blood so that in the end the balance may not exist.

Instead I think its a plot device whereby if Jon is ever revealed as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen it won't mean he'll take the throne but rather have the opportunity to refuse it.

Yes, when Jon is revealed to be Rhaegar's son the possibility of him having the Throne will be there, because of his Targ blood.

I think that the union between the two blood lines are important, and stronger when it's a Stark, and Jon is around just at the right time to deal with Ice and Fire. Bloodraven was born out of the two bloodlines, but not from the Starks, so I think that Bloodraven is important to Jon's storyline and the Ice storyline, but not as important as Jon because he was born at the wrong time to be as important as Jon, but still important non the less.

[Black Crow]

Its not so much the importance I'm arguing is that fact that notwithstanding his Targaryen blood, its Bryn Blackwood who is the last greenseer, and similarly that notwithstanding his Targaryen blood Jon Stark will become King of Wnter rather than take the Iron Throne of Fire.

[avernite]

Notwithstanding having no Targaryen blood, Bran is even stepping into Bloodraven's footsteps. He has Tully blood, true, but that has no more direct links to magic than Tyrell blood (except in the Stark-Tully children).

In other words, if Jon is to go the path of Ice, he might as well not be a Targaryen, but Stark only. IF Jon is the restorer of balance, him choosing Winter is not very logical. Him choosing the wall (or the Neck?) that divides them seems more logical.

Unless, of course, it's the clash of ice and fire that restores balance, and Jon needs Targ blood only to unbalance Danaerys in said struggle (because three dragons and a Dany obliterate one Jon, or something).

[alienarea]

Still not convinced of R+L=J.

[Toccs]

As the great emancipator of Essos she has as it were thawed the rigid ice of slavery. (As Jon has cooled the fiery anarchy of the wildlings.)

Love it. :thumbsup:

I think the "brothers and bane" bit is relatively straightforward. The giants are one of the old races, but have chosen to align themselves with men. As I said before - they are splitters - and perhaps because it was the children, not men, who were the little people who built the Wall.

Ah but, how do we know the Giants are splitters? If the ever trustworthy Mance is more complicit in all of this, maybe the Giants are with him to act as enforcers. :dunno:

[redriver]

Love it. :thumbsup:

Ah but, how do we know the Giants are splitters? If the ever trustworthy Mance is more complicit in all of this, maybe the Giants are with him to act as enforcers. :dunno:

Enforcers of what exactly?

[addicted to snow]

Some thoughts from the closing of the previous thread...

If anyone controls the Others, it would be the Starks... They are likely allied with the CotF, but they are not minions of the CotF...

[Toccs]

Enforcers of what exactly?

Assuming that Mance is complicit in the eviction of men from Beyond the Wall rather then merely reacting to it.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Welcome to Heresy 65, the latest edition of the sometimes controversial thread which takes a proper look at what’s really going on in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Yay!

:commie: :commie: :commie:

[Tyryan Lannister]

And surely Dany is the champion of Fire. As the great emancipator of Essos she has as it were thawed the rigid ice of slavery. (As Jon has cooled the fiery anarchy of the wildlings.) As we have discussed earlier, she seems destined eventually to enter the Smoking Sea and undo the Doom - whatever that was - as Jon will enter the Land of Always Winter and undo whatever governs that.

Exactly. Excellently put. :cheers:

[Tyryan Lannister]

Still not convinced of R+L=J.

Because it's N+M, duh. Everyone knows that :cool4:

[I know I know]

Because it's N+M, duh. Everyone knows that :cool4:

Wait, who is M?

[redriver]

Assuming that Mance is complicit in the eviction of men from Beyond the Wall rather then merely reacting to it.

Mance doesn't do complicit nor react to shit.He is the Mance.Period.The dudest dude in the series.

[Toccs]

Because it's N+M, duh. Everyone knows that :cool4:

Nestor Royce and Megga Tyrell? It's possible I guess, but why would Eddard feel obligated to raise the child?

Mance doesn't do complicit nor react to shit.He is the Mance.Period.The dudest dude in the series.

I didn't say it was a theory I subscribe too, just throwing it out there. What ever his motivations, there is no questioning the Mance's abilities and awesomeness.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Notwithstanding having no Targaryen blood, Bran is even stepping into Bloodraven's footsteps. He has Tully blood, true, but that has no more direct links to magic than Tyrell blood (except in the Stark-Tully children).

Actually one of the theories to Why the magic has returned to the Starks (that all of Ned's children are wargs) is that Tully/riverland blood.

[alienarea]

Because it's N+M, duh. Everyone knows that :cool4:

Not necessarily. But the more pages get turned and tv episodes aired without confirming it, the less likely it becomes, doesn't it? :cool4:

Also:

A man killed Varys.

A bastard from the Riverlands will bring down the wall.

:dunno: