Why did Lyanna need 3 of the Kingsguard guarding her at the ToJ?

[Nami]

Did you just tell someone not to be rude and then insult them? Like, in the same line?

What Apple Martini has said isn't crazy or even, really, weird. It's a pretty well regarded interpretation of what the Kingsguard was doing there. Surely you have seen it before?

How was that an insult? There's no need to try to defend her.

She was rude.

Yes I have seen it, does it mean we can't discuss it? Her word is the law?

I was politely discussing her post, there was no need for that response. Anyway, I'll ignore this person from now on.

[Samsaptakas]

3 are better than 2.

[Father of Hosts]

How was that an insult? There's no need to try to defend her.

She was rude.

Yes I have seen it, does it mean we can't discuss it? Her word is the law?

I was politely discussing her post, there was no need for that response. Anyway, I'll ignore this person from now on.

I just commented on the irony of your post.

[Sunstaff]

This is actually an interesting topic.

I find that most people ignore timelines. If you look at the timelines, and how long it took to travel from place to place. The Kingsguard in fact were guarding THE King at this point. Assuming that there was a Baby in the Tower, following lines of succession, Jon was King assuming he was legitimzed by Rhaegar.

If you look at timelines, Rhaegar and Aries were both dead several months. The ToJ battle was at the very end of the rebellion.

If you look at timelines again, it also explains why Ashara Dayne, or a milkmother, or a girl in the Sisters Islands could not possiblly be mother to Jon Snow. It was either too soon, or too late. Just follow Ned around where he fought in the Rebellion, and then add 40 weeks to it, and Jon Snow pretty much as to be Lyanna's Child.

[Sordelor]

They wouldn't reallyy make a difference in the battle at the trident, but they could protect Lyanna and her child very good.

[JeepCSC]

I just commented on the irony of your post.

except there was no irony. He didn't insult her, he just told her to calm down.

As for the timeline and the king being dead for months, that is perhaps true, but doesn't really get to the meat of the issue. You had the king, the crown prince, and the 3rd in line to the throne in the middle of the rebellion and you find 3 Kingsguards as far away from them as possible. Theoretically the place is unknown by most since no one thought to go there in the year before, namely when Robert was nearby with an army. So a somewhat secret place with the prince's second wife and unborn child are a better place for the Kingsguards than protecting any of the four living people (shout out to Viserys) in the line of succession? I mean orders and all, but geez.

Again, we just don't know enough, but what we know paints such a bizarre picture I just can't wrap my head around it.

[Jaak]

Are we directly told that all 3 sat out the war being at Tower of Joy all the time?

Before Trident the major royal armies were at Trident (3 kingsguard - Darry, Lewyn, Selmy) and besieging Storm´s End.

Out of the 4 kingsguard not at Trident, 1 (Jaime) was with king - the other 3 unknown.

It would make perfect sense that the Kingsguard were, in fact, at the siege of Storm´s end - and when they learned of Eddard´s approach, and that the Tyrells were inclined to bend the knee instead of fighting, left the camp for Tower of Joy ahead of Eddard´s arrival.

Also, reaching Tower of Joy would have been easier than reaching Dragonstone. Dragonstone meant a ship. Redwyne would bend knee along Tyrells. Sailing a ship required active cooperation of its crew. Riding off for a destination they did not need to comment on simply meant that the Tyrell camp - who at that point had not formally switched sides yet - did not bother challenging some honourable knights going about their business.

Also, remember the composition. Oswell´s home was on the Riverlands and his family suppressed by Robert and Hoster. But Hightowers and Daynes were both on the far end of Westeros as yet unreached by Robellion. In fact, Tower of Joy was quite directly on the way from Storm´s End to Oldtown OR Starfall. If Arthur and Gerold planned to flee overland to seek help of one or other of their families - or of friends and acquaintances near home - in order to hide or to sneak inconspicuously on a ship bound for Dragonstone or exile, then passing through Tower of Joy and picking up Lyanna was not a big detour.

[Ygrain]

Are we directly told that all 3 sat out the war being at Tower of Joy all the time?

Before Trident the major royal armies were at Trident (3 kingsguard - Darry, Lewyn, Selmy) and besieging Storm´s End.

Out of the 4 kingsguard not at Trident, 1 (Jaime) was with king - the other 3 unknown.

It would make perfect sense that the Kingsguard were, in fact, at the siege of Storm´s end - and when they learned of Eddard´s approach, and that the Tyrells were inclined to bend the knee instead of fighting, left the camp for Tower of Joy ahead of Eddard´s arrival.

Also, reaching Tower of Joy would have been easier than reaching Dragonstone. Dragonstone meant a ship. Redwyne would bend knee along Tyrells. Sailing a ship required active cooperation of its crew. Riding off for a destination they did not need to comment on simply meant that the Tyrell camp - who at that point had not formally switched sides yet - did not bother challenging some honourable knights going about their business.

Also, remember the composition. Oswell´s home was on the Riverlands and his family suppressed by Robert and Hoster. But Hightowers and Daynes were both on the far end of Westeros as yet unreached by Robellion. In fact, Tower of Joy was quite directly on the way from Storm´s End to Oldtown OR Starfall. If Arthur and Gerold planned to flee overland to seek help of one or other of their families - or of friends and acquaintances near home - in order to hide or to sneak inconspicuously on a ship bound for Dragonstone or exile, then passing through Tower of Joy and picking up Lyanna was not a big detour.

And Lyanna was left all alone the whole time, at the mercy of every outlaw who might venture nearby?

Personally, I find nothing suspicious about the presence of the three KG. Neither Aerys nor Robert may be allowed to learn where Lyanna is, which means that the force assigned to her protection must be small and reliable, so as to prevent drawing attention and/or information leak. What the force lacks in numbers must be made up in expertize, hence the three best swords in the kingdom. With the rest of the royal family, the situation is sort of reversed - no secrecy required, and superior numbers at hand for their protection.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Are we directly told that all 3 sat out the war being at Tower of Joy all the time?

Before Trident the major royal armies were at Trident (3 kingsguard - Darry, Lewyn, Selmy) and besieging Storm´s End.

Out of the 4 kingsguard not at Trident, 1 (Jaime) was with king - the other 3 unknown.

It would make perfect sense that the Kingsguard were, in fact, at the siege of Storm´s end - and when they learned of Eddard´s approach, and that the Tyrells were inclined to bend the knee instead of fighting, left the camp for Tower of Joy ahead of Eddard´s arrival.

If the app is to be believed, then Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar at the ToJ the whole time. Hightower was dispatched by Aerys to get Rhaegar, and Rhaegar ordered him and the other two KG to stay at ToJ while Rhaegar went to fight at the trident.

Common belief is that Rhaegar ordered them to be there. Why? There's no proof, so you can pick:

1) He loved Lyanna so much he was blind

2) Jon was actually not a bastard, therefore he was heir to the IT

3) Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy, bastard or not he believed Jon was TPTWP

I believe 2 and 3 make a better story. 3 is specially interesting.

I don't think any of those make a better story. Even if Jon was not a bastard, Aegon would still be the heir after Rhaegar. Why should Rhaegar put precedence on Jon over Aegon? Also, if Dany's vision is to be believed, Rhaegar thought that Aegon was the TPTWP.

I tend to think he thought that either Robert or Ned would show up to rescue Lyanna, and he needed KG there to prevent that from happening.

[TepidHands]

3 are better than 2.

Looks like they needed more than 3!

[Free Northman]

Martin hinted that we would find out more about Arthur Dayne soon, and that some of this would dispell the notion of him as this knight of pure virtue.

We know Dayne was very close to Rhaegar. I think Rhaegar convinced Dayne and Whent to support him in overthrowing his father. From that point on,Rhaegar was their king, not Aerys.

I think furthermore that Rhaegar convinced them of the truth of his prophecies. I think subsequent to the vision where he proclaimed Aegon as the Prince that was Promised, he had further visions, clarifying to him that Aegon would in fact die and that Jon was in fact his only viable heir. I think he convinced Arthur Dayne of this, and the other two Kingsguard as well.

So in short, Rhaegar knew Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys were doomed. He knew this through his prophetic visions. And he convinced the 3 Kingsguard that sided with him, of this truth.

That is the only likely series of events that explains their presence at the Tower of Joy.

[Greymoon]

Two cents Crackpot:

Clearly, Bloodraven was responsible for Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s rash actions. He was responsible for Robert’s Rebellion, and is still plotting at this very moment, and brainwashing sweet Bran.

Lyanna belonged to a secret order of priestess of the Old Gods, one that we have glimpsed incidentally, through the introduction of Dalla and Val. This sacred Order, is known only to women descended from the First Men, and its secrets are passed down from mother to daughter, only. That's why Lyanna's KotLT shield was painted with a weirwood face. Lyanna and Rhaegar both had a sacred calling of their own. They didn’t elope out of love, but out of duty to the Gods. The Gods (...Bloodraven, in fact) managed to infiltrate Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s dreams, as the three eyed crow. The Old Gods powers, are strong in Harrenhal - it’s close to the Gods Eye, where plenty of weirwood trees linger...plus remember Jaime’s strange dream ?

In short, Jon is the result of Bloodraven’s machinations...though of course, in the eyes of Lyanna and Rhaegar, he’s the last godly duty they both have performed - having intercourse - Jon is also the result of the ultimate sacrifice to the Gods : Lyanna's life, Rhaegar's life, the life of thousands of Westerosis ect. That is why, it was so very important, to keep this 'godly' child, protected. Therefore, three KG was the least one could expect.

[Ygrain]

Martin hinted that we would find out more about Arthur Dayne soon, and that some of this would dispell the notion of him as this knight of pure virtue.

That's interesting, got a link?

We know Dayne was very close to Rhaegar. I think Rhaegar convinced Dayne and Whent to support him in overthrowing his father. From that point on,Rhaegar was their king, not Aerys.

I'd wholeheartedly agree if only these two were involved; the presence of Hightower is what makes me doubt this, especially because of his claim that they would defend Aerys, had they been present at KL. Even if Rhaegar did sway the allegiance of Whent and Dayne, Hightower still seems Aerys' man.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

[Free Northman]

That's interesting, got a link?

I'd wholeheartedly agree if only these two were involved; the presence of Hightower is what makes me doubt this, especially because of his claim that they would defend Aerys, had they been present at KL. Even if Rhaegar did sway the allegiance of Whent and Dayne, Hightower still seems Aerys' man.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Maybe they lied to him and somehow convinced him that Aerys was already dead?

[Ygrain]

Maybe they lied to him and somehow convinced him that Aerys was already dead?

Unnecessary complication, I believe. GRRM stated that they would follow Rhaegar's orders to stay at ToJ, so if Hightower didn't receive any conflicting orders from Aerys, he had no reason to disobey.

[Kipor]

"Why did Lyanna need 3 of the Kingsguard guarding her in the ToJ?"

Quick answer - She didn't

Now, I'll explain this statement. Just hear me out first, ok?

A Kingsguard is a man. A man which is very good with a sword, but still, a man. They aren't even completely honorable; Jaime is considered dishonorable by what he did, and even if we keep him out, there are many Kingsguards who went downright against their vows and king's wishes - for example, Lewyn Martell had a paramour when he should not and Criston Cole overthrew his rightful queen, named heir by the king himself years before he died. Even the Kingsguard of Aerys is a subject to this; for example, I'm not saying that they should walk into the room and put a sword into Aerys belly when he started raping his wife, but they could do many things to stop him, like for example faking some trouble in the castle, something that would probably caught the attention of someone so paranoid. They COULD have stopped this, they simply chose not to. But anyway, that’s beside the point.

There is only so much a man can do. Bards sing songs about how bravely Baristan cut through the Golden Company to kill the last of the Blackfyres, but actually, it was Baristan’s unit who did that. Same thing with Rhaegar and Robert; people sing about how both of them met on the field of battle, but over a hundred thousand men were fighting there. Of course, Rhaegar’s dead was great disaster to the loyalists because of the morale damage, but really, if they were destroying the rebels armies and suddenly Rhaegar took an arrow to the knee and died, someone else would simply quickly take control of the army and assure victory. It only had that much impact because the armies were evenly matched.

The question is: Ned came with six companions – good! If Ned came with a thousand men army, would it make any difference if there was three or one or none kingsguard there?

The Kingsguard are useful because of the symbolic importance they have. If the king is incapable, the Kingsguard would lead armies in his name to represent him. If the king was capable, the Kingsguard would ride beside him, so as to remind everyone of “Hey, this guy is the King. His family took the throne, his line held it. These white guys are the proof of this”. On the trident, they would be much more important since, even if Rhaegar died, one of them could take control of the army to show to his forces that the king still lives. That doesn’t mean they would cut down half the rebels armies, mind you; it doesn’t mean that they will even cut down Robert, or Jon, or Ned. It only means that the Kings representation (who was Rhaegar) would live on, boosting the morale of forces.

But really, do they really matter so much? There were kingsguards with Robert. He died because of a boar. There were rainbowguards with Renly. He died by a shadow assassin. There were the northern equivalent of kingsguards with Robb. They died in the Red Wedding. There were kingsguard with Joffrey. He died from poison. There were queensguards with Daenerys. They let her go into a pit after her dragon. All were different situations, some in which they could have done something, some were they could not. It didn’t matter. Hell, even if you look at it, the Kingsguards rarely died in battle on the books: Barristan and Boros had their white cloaks taken, Preston Greenfield died in the riot, Sandor Clegane deserted the order. The other two – Mandon Moore and Arys Oakheart – suffered ridiculous deaths, on the hands of a squire and a captain of guard. I don’t know from now on, but up until now, they were pretty irrelevant to the story.

So, we make it here: Lyanna had three kingsguards with her; Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. One was more than enough; if their job was to protect her, he would simply have to guide her to somewhere else as soon as possible, and one knight with a woman doesn’t bring as much attention as three. If they were to stop her from fleeing, one was enough too; hell, she was most certainly pregnant, he would have to be an awesome failure to allow her to escape. The other two could be much more well used; remember, Jaime is the son of a LORD PARAMOUNT, what more, one of the only ones (aside from Balon, who didn’t exist at the rebelion’s time [otherwise he would BRING THE OLD WAYS]) who didn’t declare. He could work as a hostage just as much as an assassin – after all, he had a sword, armor, skill and opportunity. The other three, however, they are not only members of smaller houses, all of their houses are supporting the king; they are far more trustworthy than Jaime would ever be in this kind of situation. They could work to do something similar to Darry (who smuggled the queen and her son out of there) and bring Elia and her children to safety, or simply ride with Rhaegar and improve even more the morale of the loyalists. Alas, none of these happened, and you know why?

Because that would not have been fun. The books are written in a realistic way, but sometimes you have to make unrealistic decisions so that the story continue to be interesting. Do you truly believe that if Robb of the Blackfish were normal people they would give Edmure so little information? No, they would not. Especially when they know that he is no general. Do you really think that a seasoned commander like Stannis would let incompetent nobles lead his armies AND not keep a watch on his back? Never! He is STANNIS, for God’s sake; if the Florents demanded to lead his forces, he would simply say something like “I am the King, not you” and be done with it. Even if they were to complain, he is freakin’ Azor Azhai by all they know, the Jesus Christ of their religion. However, the story would not be as interesting if Stannis won at Blackwater, nor would it be if Robb succeeded in his rebellion.

The three kingsguards weren’t there because they were needed, just like Ned didn’t bring only six companions because only they were needed. Of course, we can create some reasons for this that we will believe so that it makes sense in our head, but this isn’t why it’s like this. The reason Lyanna had three kingsguards was because that would allow Ned to fight them head on, and that is simply EPIC!

P.S.: Oh, also, that’s just my opinion, kay? If you read all of this and started to think things like “The nerve of this guy!” or “This son-of-an-bitch!” and you want to rage at me, let me give you some advice:

Calm the fuck down.

This is internet. People have opinions and thoughts. People expose these opinions and thoughts. Sometimes, one does not agree with the opinions and thoughts of someone else. There is no need to be rude about this. Just ignore it or – if you really have to answer – make a polite remark, with at maximum a healthy amount of sarcasm. No need to be a Joffrey about this.

P.S.2.: Also, I used Joffrey as a synonymous to “asshole”. I’m a fuckin’ genius.

[The Duke]

It only makes sense if the heir to the throne is there. Aerys and Rhaegar were both dead at that point, and they knew that they were dead. If the heir wasn't there, then why was the Kingsguard not hightailing it to Essosto protect Viserys?

[Lonin]

The three Kingsguard were ordered by Rhaegar to stay at the ToJ to protect/guard Lyanna.

I think that R+L=J, and that Jon is legitimate

- The Targs thought that the rebellion would be easily crushed, and didn't need to assemble their most formidable forces.

- I also don't think the strain between Rhaegar and Aerys was as great as many believe, but its wise not to take Lyanna to K/L. Rhaegar may have planned to remove Aerys via a Great Council sometime in future... but, Aerys let Rhaegar have several KGs for protection - and the KG are under the Kings command.

- I also think the events at the ToJ would have played out the same, even if Lyanna had a girl. because there was not much time between birth and Ned's arrival -I doubt that the 3 KGs would have said , oops a girl and rode off into the sunset (also a good chance that Rhaegar was expecting/wanting a girl).

[honeyed chicken]

The more investment (by posters) I see in unsupportable hypotheses about why the KG were at the toj the more I'm inclined to believe the whole toj story is a blind alley.

Everything rests on one drug addled memory (Ned's). Anything that is remembered by Ned in that state needs to be regarded with suspicion. On top of that, when he was actually at the toj, his beloved sister died and as he himself reports, he blacked out after she passed and he remembers "none of it" - that's what we're putting all this speculation onto - memories clouded by emotional & physical pain.

The memories and the dream could easily have been a jumble of many events at different places and times fused into one. Who was supposedly there, what they were reported to have said - all of it needs to be corroborated, imo. The only way that can happen, I believe, is for GRRM to reveal that Wylla or some other living person was there and have them tell us what happened.

Some times the best thing you can say is, "I don't know", or in this case, "I have no clue what is true and what isn't."

[PrimeRhaegar]

because the KG does not run then or now. Man i don't know maybe it was to protect her and his sonas the theory goes i have no idea i'm waiting to find out