The Food Code of Ice and Fire

[Florina Laufeyson]

There appears to be no real discernible pattern with beets. But they looked almost like The Beets of Authority Refusal for a moment. But those incidents appear only twice. Bran serving beets to Little Walder as a "fuck you" and Tommen wishing to outlaw them. (a sign of balking at his mother)

[Dr. Pepper]

Excellent. GRRM spends so much time describing food that they must have some significance. Beets have some special connotation?

I'm not seeing much of a pattern but here are the mentions.

Beets served at the harvest festival at winterfell. Bran send beets to Lil Walder.

Beets at Red Wedding.

Cersei and Kevan eat beets after Tywin dies and Cersei is asking Kevan to be hand after Jame refused.

Beets part of the meal with Balman and Falyse (when Cersei thinks how much she's come to love boar).

Sweet beets grown in Volantis and part of a popular dish.

And beets at the wall.

I'm not seeing a pattern with these, but it's not necessary that all food becomes part of the code. Too much work, I say.

[bbstark]

Fantastic work ladies! Not sure I have anything to add atm, but very nice!

I particularly enjoy the revised interpretation on the Peaches symbolism. So far in the books, there haven't been quite as many deaths as the presence and careful placement of peaches appears to foreshadow. The idea that it represents a deceptive sense of security fits far better than merely a presence of death.

[Rose of Ice]

This kind of thread is why I love these boards. I'm tempted to do a complete reread, whilst eating Sweet n Sour Boar washed down with red wine followed by Peach Cobbler, noting all food and drink references.

ETA: Maybe Beets signify blooshed. Just read the above comment.

[yolkboy]

I noticed that the only time Dany eats lamb is when she is entertained by the Green Grace (who I believe to be the Harpy). On another occasion, she refuses it.

Several times when reading the book, I wondered if Dany was being compared to a lamb in some way.

Off the top of my head, she makes the deal to be supplied corn by the Lhazareen. So she is literally being fed corn by shepherds.

“I may be a young girl innocent of war, but I am not a lamb to walk bleating into the harpy’s den"

(of course she does, going to eat with the GG and eats lamb with her)

Then there's the 'floppy ears' talk in Meereen.

She's 'shorn' of her hair twice, in times when she really needs to change.

And her journey in Essos might be likened to that of a lost lamb, wondering around her pen, being gently guided/shepherded by Quaithe. (and no i don't really like this one).

If there is a Dany/lamb connection (and I'm really not sold and would have to look for more clues), eating lamb with the Green Grace might be highly significant.

I don't really like this, but throwing out there anyways.

[TheMysteriousOne]

This may be a stretch, but I think that persimmon represents defeat or rather compromise, in Dany's story arc:

I must have them all. Dany knew what she must do now, though the taste of it was so bitter that even the persimmon wine could not cleanse it from her mouth. She had considered long and hard and found no other way. It is my only choice. "Give me all," she said, "and you may have a dragon."

Xaro perused the fruits on the platter Jhiqui offered him and chose a persimmon. Its orange skin matched the color of the coral in his nose. He took a bite and pursed his lips. “Tart.”

In both of those situations, Dany is essentially defeated; she was forced to make a compromise with the Astapori slavers by offering one of her dragons, and Xaro was able to outwit her in their conversation, and managed to bring up many of the flaws in Dany's arguments, and point out how wrong everything was going for her and her goals and Dany eventually 'accepts' defeat or rather compromises, because although she knows and believes that slavery is wrong, she is not intelligent enough to sucessfully debate with Xaro.

We notice that Dany makes several compromises throughout ADWD, she allows the Yunkish to continue the slave trade outside Meereen, she allows Daznak's pit to be reopened, etc. So I think that persimmon and defeat/compromise are linked, at least in Dany's story arc.

[Dr. Pepper]

I like that, TMO. Pycelle makes a persimmon mention but all the rest come from Dany. Quaithe comes to her beneath the persimmon tree. Missandei suggests Dany not go to the fighting pits as the persimmon tree is shadowing the rising sun.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I like that, TMO. Pycelle makes a persimmon mention but all the rest come from Dany. Quaithe comes to her beneath the persimmon tree. Missandei suggests Dany not go to the fighting pits as the persimmon tree is shadowing the rising sun.

The persimmon thing is interesting because it's a character-specific symbolism, whereas the other examples apply to multiple people.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Very interesting thread. I usually grow bored of GRRM's food descriptions. I'll have to pay closer attention on my next re-read.

How about lamprey? Any connective symbology there?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The persimmon thing is interesting because it's a character-specific symbolism, whereas the other examples apply to multiple people.

Or is it possible persimmon is a common fruit grown in Essos thats why its specific to Dany.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Or is it possible persimmon is a common fruit grown in Essos thats why its specific to Dany.

Which is why it's only eaten during compromises or negotiations, right?

[Dr. Pepper]

Or is it possible persimmon is a common fruit grown in Essos thats why its specific to Dany.

Arbor gold is a wine made in the Arbor, but mentions of it still have proven to have specific symbolism. Citrus fruit is generally found in Dorne, but again, it has symbolic value. The persimmon is absolutely common in Essos. We are looking at whether or not there is a pattern to be found with mentions of persimmon.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Which is why it's only eaten during compromises or negotiations, right?

Yes it carries symbolism of course, I just mean that maybe its also a common fruit grown in Essos sorry didnt explain well lol :P

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes it carries symbolism of course, I just mean that maybe its also a common fruit grown in Essos sorry didnt explain well lol :P

But it's not seen in Quentyn or Tyrion or Arya's Essos chapters. Hence, it looks like it's specific to Dany.

[Dr. Pepper]

Very interesting thread. I usually grow board of GRRM's food descriptions. I'll have to pay closer attention on my next re-read.

How about Lamprey's? Any connective symbology there?

I haven't really looked yet, but I'm snickering over Lady Tanda running down the halls of the Red Keep offering lamprey pie to entice suitors to come dine with her and Lollys.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Also persimmon represents transformation in Budhism, not sure if that has any relevance

[DavosSeaworthy]

Well done, great read.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

But it's not seen in Quentyn or Tyrion or Arya's Essos chapters. Hence, it looks like it's specific to Dany.

Oh, Then it does have something to do with her arc and end game.

[yolkboy]

How about Lamprey's? Any connective symbology there?

I had a (quick) look and I couldn't see connective symbolism. (Although maybe some else should be more thorough).

Lamprey does seem to indicate luxury (god have you seen those things).

First there is, as DP mentions, Lady Tanda trying to impress suitors with Lamprey.

Then there is Manderley who gets the monicker Lord Lamprey, not just because of the amount of food he eats, but because of the quality/luxury of that food.

He bathes in scented waters and grows fat on lark and lamprey while his people starve!

Then we have an imprisoned Davos being shocked at the Lamprey he is fed, after so much hunger and porridge. That is when he begins to realise he has friends beyond his prison door.

So perhaps Lamprey is more indicative of lavishness/luxury etc, rather than symbolic of anything.

Then again, it should be looked at closely, it would not surprise me if there turned out to be a deeper connection.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This may be a stretch, but I think that persimmon represents defeat or rather compromise, in Dany's story arc:

I must have them all. Dany knew what she must do now, though the taste of it was so bitter that even the persimmon wine could not cleanse it from her mouth. She had considered long and hard and found no other way. It is my only choice. "Give me all," she said, "and you may have a dragon."

Xaro perused the fruits on the platter Jhiqui offered him and chose a persimmon. Its orange skin matched the color of the coral in his nose. He took a bite and pursed his lips. “Tart.”

In both of those situations, Dany is essentially defeated; she was forced to make a compromise with the Astapori slavers by offering one of her dragons, and Xaro was able to outwit her in their conversation, and managed to bring up many of the flaws in Dany's arguments, and point out how wrong everything was going for her and her goals and Dany eventually 'accepts' defeat or rather compromises, because although she knows and believes that slavery is wrong, she is not intelligent enough to sucessfully debate with Xaro.

We notice that Dany makes several compromises throughout ADWD, she allows the Yunkish to continue the slave trade outside Meereen, she allows Daznak's pit to be reopened, etc. So I think that persimmon and defeat/compromise are linked, at least in Dany's story arc.

I think in the first situation the wine was supposed to be sweet for Dany but it wasnt as it couldnt cleanse the sour taste in her mouth that's why she was defeated.

When xaro tasted it, he said "tart" which means sour, but he won the argument, maybe Dany will still end up defeating him, hence the sour taste he tasted.

As most people expect Dany's side to win the slavers bay battle.

So it could mean defeat/ victory depending on the taste?

I maybe wrong.