The Food Code of Ice and Fire

[Joe Pine]

Wow..

I was reading the Renly Peach scene this morning.

[TheMysteriousOne]

<snip>

I don't think I agree, because I don't think that the taste of persimmon matters, as it always represents compromise/negotiation/defeat in Dany's arc in every book that it is present.

She was breaking her fast on a bowl of cold shrimp-and-persimmon soup when Irri brought her a Qartheen gown, an airy confection of ivory samite patterned with seed pearls.

In this instance, we learn that Dany decides to leave Qarth after being essentially defeated. The Qartheen no longer care about her and her dragons, and they want her out of the city, and the warlocks want to destroy her.

[Dr. Pepper]

There's something about lamprey. Can't quite figure it out. It's such a disgusting creature.

Some things of interest.

Manderly love lamprey and he's rich enough to eat a lot, but he also shares it readily, especially at feasts. LF loves his lamprey pie, but he takes it from others (like Tanda).

Ser Balon Swann shuns the lamprey pie that he's served when meeting with the Martells in Dorne.

I'm really curious who was sending Davos the lamprey while he was jailed at Dragonstone.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I don't think I agree, because I don't think that the taste of persimmon matters, as it always represents compromise/negotiation/defeat in Dany's arc in every book that it is present.

She was breaking her fast on a bowl of cold shrimp-and-persimmon soup when Irri brought her a Qartheen gown, an airy confection of ivory samite patterned with seed pearls.

In this instance, we learn that Dany decides to leave Qarth after being essentially defeated. The Qartheen no longer care about her and her dragons, and they want her out of the city, and the warlocks want to destroy her.

good point

[Greymoon]

And none of you think that the food in great part included to create the atmosphere and give life to the scene? I don’t think the patterns used are such mystery, and that the associations with food are less than straightforward. There’s also an effort towards writing realistic scenes.

I've always associated peaches with summer, because that's the time of the year I eat them. It's when they mature. Summer/youth/innocence is a common enough scheme.

If you are writing a feast, you want to include meat; because meat is something precious and a sign of wealth. There's no proper feast without meat. The Dothraki on the other hand eat more meat, and they do that like many other nomad populations, because when you move around you can't at the same time plant crop. If you are somewhere where the weather is warm, you might want figs, olives, melons, dates, pomegranates etc.

I’m not denying that there’s a symbolic meaning behind foods, or that there isn’t any type of literary convention. I just don’t think it’s necessary to look this far. Wine has plenty of symbolic meanings of its own, without us having to look for a pattern whenever arbor wine in particular is being served.

[Florina Laufeyson]

And none of you think that the food in great part included to create the atmosphere and give life to the scene? I don’t think the patterns used are such mystery, and that the associations with food are less than straightforward. There’s also an effort towards writing realistic scenes.

I've always associated peaches with summer, because that's the time of the year I eat them. It's when they mature. Summer/youth/innocence is a common enough scheme.

If you are writing a feast, you want to include meat; because meat is something precious and a sign of wealth. There's no proper feast without meat. The Dothraki on the other hand eat more meat, and they do that like many other nomad populations, because when you move around you can't at the same time plant crop. If you are somewhere where the weather is warm, you might want figs, olives, melons, dates, pomegranates etc.

I’m not denying that there’s a symbolic meaning behind foods, or that there isn’t any type of literary convention. I just don’t think it’s necessary to look this far. Wine has plenty of symbolic meanings of its own, without us having to look for a pattern whenever arbor wine in particular is being served.

The food porn in the series isnt just GRRM waxing off about how lovely the various foods are. Some of it is world building, some of it is Author Appeal, and then you get these sorts of instances where there appears to be a definite pattern with certain foods and the actions that follow. The most glaring example is the peaches and the boar. The Arbor Gold is another one. If pomegranates or persimmons dont mean anything, that doesnt mean boar or Arbor Gold doesnt mean anything.

[maidenandwarrior]

I'm not seeing much of a pattern but here are the mentions.

Beets served at the harvest festival at winterfell. Bran send beets to Lil Walder.

Beets at Red Wedding.

Cersei and Kevan eat beets after Tywin dies and Cersei is asking Kevan to be hand after Jame refused.

Beets part of the meal with Balman and Falyse (when Cersei thinks how much she's come to love boar).

Sweet beets grown in Volantis and part of a popular dish.

And beets at the wall.

I'm not seeing a pattern with these, but it's not necessary that all food becomes part of the code. Too much work, I say.

Beets could mean that someone is marked for death. Tommen with regards to Cersei's prophecy, Little Walder, Cersei, Kevan, Balman, Falyse. The Night's Watch could be even marked for death, if it is disbanded by the end of the novels.

As for Volantis, remember the Widow of the Waterfront? She tells Tyrion: "Should you reach your queen, give her a message from the slaves of Old Volantis...Tell her we are waiting. Tell her to come soon."

The only problem is that the Dany the Widow intended the message for is probably gone, and the new Fire and Blood Dany is the one who will answer.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The food porn in the series isnt just GRRM waxing off about how lovely the various foods are. Some of it is world building, some of it is Author Appeal, and then you get these sorts of instances where there appears to be a definite pattern with certain foods and the actions that follow. The most glaring example is the peaches and the boar. The Arbor Gold is another one. If pomegranates or persimmons dont mean anything, that doesnt mean boar or Arbor Gold doesnt mean anything.

To expand on this, people are constantly bitching about how GRRM describes food too much, goes into too much detail with it, gets repetitive with it, etc. But if it's being used for symbolic purposes, then that explains what is otherwise nothing more than an annoying tic on the part of the author.

If anyone thinks it's looking too much into stuff, that's fine. You're more than welcome to stay on the top level of the plot. But I think that sells the story short in terms of what GRRM has been able to convey with patterns and symbolism that do need deeper examination to "get" than simply taking what's on the page at face value.

[Dr. Pepper]

Beets could mean that someone is marked for death. Tommen with regards to Cersei's prophecy, Little Walder, Cersei, Kevan, Balman, Falyse. The Night's Watch could be even marked for death, if it is disbanded by the end of the novels.

As for Volantis, remember the Widow of the Waterfront? She tells Tyrion: "Should you reach your queen, give her a message from the slaves of Old Volantis...Tell her we are waiting. Tell her to come soon."

The only problem is that the Dany the Widow intended the message for is probably gone, and the new Fire and Blood Dany is the one who will answer.

I really like this. An interesting thing is that the sweet beets in Volantis are mentioned by Quentyn, who went on a date with a bbq.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Beets could mean that someone is marked for death. Tommen with regards to Cersei's prophecy, Little Walder, Cersei, Kevan, Balman, Falyse. The Night's Watch could be even marked for death, if it is disbanded by the end of the novels.

I think that, if there is a deliberate pattern, this makes the most sense. Good job.

I really like this. An interesting thing is that the sweet beets in Volantis are mentioned by Quentyn, who went on a date with a bbq.

Sold.

[Booknerd2]

The secret code of food. Lovely! Now I have to do another re-read. LOL!

Picked up on the wine but not some of these things. Awesome!

[maidenandwarrior]

I really like this. An interesting thing is that the sweet beets in Volantis are mentioned by Quentyn, who went on a date with a bbq.

Is is wrong that I snickered when I read your post? "Date with a bbq" will be my favorite phrase for a while now.

For Tommen, doesn't Cersei insist he eat the beets, even though he doesn't like them? And then there is that scene when Jaime brings Tommen to her chambers, and he declares he wants to outlaw them. Sort of going with the idea that his death will come about because of Cersei, and not just her prophecy.

[J. Stargaryen]

To expand on this, people are constantly bitching about how GRRM describes food too much, goes into too much detail with it, gets repetitive with it, etc. But if it's being used for symbolic purposes, then that explains what is otherwise nothing more than an annoying tic on the part of the author.

If anyone thinks it's looking too much into stuff, that's fine. You're more than welcome to stay on the top level of the plot. But I think that sells the story short in terms of what GRRM has been able to convey with patterns and symbolism that do need deeper examination to "get" than simply taking what's on the page at face value.

Nice job, Apple, Flo and DP. :thumbsup:

Also, just want to echo the sentiments in the second paragraph. I've never understood why some people are dismissive of this type of analysis, especially after a pretty clear link has been established.

[maidenandwarrior]

What about pears? Is there some significance to Sansa choosing a pear instead of the pomegranate?

Pomegranate seeds were so messy; Sansa chose a pear instead, and took a small delicate bite. It was very ripe. The juice ran down her chin.

The only other time I can think of a pear coming up was Viserion being lazy, sleeping on that pear tree. Does anyone else remember other times? I am very curious about the meaning of pears.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What about pears? Is there some significance to Sansa choosing a pear instead of the pomegranate?

The only other time I can think of a pear coming up was Viserion being lazy, sleeping on that pear tree. Does anyone else remember other times? I am very curious about the meaning of pears.

In this case, I think the significance isn't so much the pear, but that she didn't choose the pomegranate.

There are also beets on the menu at the RW, by the way. I just looked. Could work multiple ways: imminent death for Robb and Catelyn and their men, and also eventual death for the Freys.

[yolkboy]

What about pears? Is there some significance to Sansa choosing a pear instead of the pomegranate?

The only other time I can think of a pear coming up was Viserion being lazy, sleeping on that pear tree. Does anyone else remember other times? I am very curious about the meaning of pears.

Dany is offered pear brandy by her would be wine-selling assassin.

Jaime eats a pear when he decides to distance himself from Gregor's thugs (with Bonnifer Hasty).

Dany commands Daario to eat a pear when he hasn't eaten for 2 days and declares feasting on her beauty is enough to sustain him.

With the Sansa and Viserion scenes, that's it for pears.

[Dr. Pepper]

Is is wrong that I snickered when I read your post? "Date with a bbq" will be my favorite phrase for a while now.

For Tommen, doesn't Cersei insist he eat the beets, even though he doesn't like them? And then there is that scene when Jaime brings Tommen to her chambers, and he declares he wants to outlaw them. Sort of going with the idea that his death will come about because of Cersei, and not just her prophecy.

It's really hard to separate the bbq with the romanticism of Quentyn's story. lol

I recall that Cersei insist he eat the beets, but I can't find it. All I'm finding is Jaime bringing Tommen into her bath and him going on about how he wants Loras and jousting and no beets. Cersei doesn't even acknowledge the beets, but Tommen's going to outlaw them anyway. It's a conversation of almost Tyrell vs Lannister. Interesting in light of the 'marked for death' analysis.

What about pears? Is there some significance to Sansa choosing a pear instead of the pomegranate?

The only other time I can think of a pear coming up was Viserion being lazy, sleeping on that pear tree. Does anyone else remember other times? I am very curious about the meaning of pears.

The search function on the kindle is so crappy. Too many words with 'pear' in them that it's difficult to find specific pear mentions. But I do agree with Apple that the significance is that she shunned the pomegranate.

[TalalOfDorne]

This has probably mentioned before (Not specifically in this thread, but I tend to stay away from foreshadowing threads in general):

The oranges that keep falling in Areos first chapter in Feast. I think this is something that symbolizes death, of maybe grief.

The first orange fell and prince Doran hasnt shown any reaction to it.

Then the second orange fell, the same thing happens.

Then the third orange falls. It fell close to Doran, and its said that its as if Prince Doran felt pain from it, and then he asks to be taken away from the Water Gardens (As if he couldnt take the pain) and leaves.

I think the first orange was Elias death, the second Oberyns, and he third is Quentyn, remember how that third orange fell the closest to the prince, and Quentyn was the closest to Doran of the three. He was his son after all, and the pain will be too much for him.

Im not sure how often oranges are mentioned so this could be way off.

Mladen 26-16

[maidenandwarrior]

In this case, I think the significance isn't so much the pear, but that she didn't choose the pomegranate.

There are also beets on the menu at the RW, by the way. I just looked. Could work multiple ways: imminent death for Robb and Catelyn and their men, and also eventual death for the Freys.

Yep, I agree re the beets. The Freys are certainly marked for it, or at least the ones who were there or part of the plot.

I certainly agree that it was important Sansa chose something other than a pomegranate, but there were also "apples and pears and pomegranates, some sad-looking grapes, a huge blood orange." This seems meaningful to me, I am not sure why.

The apples could represent the Fossways, or knowledge. The grapes, the Redwynes, and the blood orange Arya. Maybe it is significant that Sansa didn't follow a path to the Reach, or the path to Arya. Maybe. I will think more on it.

[Katkara]

For Tommen, doesn't Cersei insist he eat the beets, even though he doesn't like them? And then there is that scene when Jaime brings Tommen to her chambers, and he declares he wants to outlaw them. Sort of going with the idea that his death will come about because of Cersei, and not just her prophecy.

I'm absolutely not sure whether this is a clue, and it might be that it doesn't mean anything in connection with the books, but in the second season of the show, Cersei almost killed Tommen with poison (I believe it was nightshade) when Stannis tried to sack King's Landing. GRRM said that he revealed some secrets and the future plot developement to the producers, and maybe in the books Cersei will kill Tommen later or cause his death. That would make sense in connection with the prophecy, since people usually try to prevent a prophecy from happening and because of that unknowingly fulfill it. Maybe Cersei will do something to protect Tommen, and that will cause his death.