The Cat-Jon-Ned Debacle (long)

[James Arryn]

BB, just starting, but I see a contradiction.

On the one hand you say that Jon's feelings for Bran and his condition are so strong as to explain his fear, in part. On the other hand his overcoming these strong feelings for 2 weeks is chalked up to discomfort.

Wouldn't it take something stronger than discomfort to overcome those strong feelings for over 2 weeks?

[butterbumps!]

Raid, just starting, but I see a contradiction.

On the one hand you say that Jon's feelings for Bran and his condition are so strong as to explain his fear, in part. On the other hand his overcoming these strong feelings for 2 weeks is chalked up to discomfort.

Wouldn't it take something stronger than discomfort to overcome those strong feelings for over 2 weeks?

Is this addressed to me?

I'm saying that the lines about Jon's discomfort from this passage are often used to show that Jon stays away solely because of Cat, that without Cat, Jon would feel no need to draw strength, and that any and all emotional duress just after this scene are because of Cat.

I was pointing out that in this scene, it's a mixture of highly charged emotions in Jon that keep him from wanting to visit, that made him hesitate at the doorway, that are on his mind when Robb asks him later. Cat's presence was definitely a deterring factor for those 2 weeks, but certainly not the only one, nor is she the only reason Jon is drained and sour after.

[James Arryn]

Is this addressed to me?

I'm saying that the lines about Jon's discomfort from this passage are often used to show that Jon stays away solely because of Cat, that without Cat, Jon would feel no need to draw strength, and that any and all emotional duress just after this scene are because of Cat.

I was pointing out that in this scene, it's a mixture of highly charged emotions in Jon that keep him from wanting to visit, that made him hesitate at the doorway, that are on his mind when Robb asks him later. Cat's presence was definitely a deterring factor for those 2 weeks, but certainly not the only one, nor is she the only reason Jon is drained and sour after.

I am assuming that the strength of his feelings would drive him towards, not away from Bran's bed. Just as his strong feelings drove him south after Ned's arrest, or w/e. so if those feelings are particularly strong, so must be the impediment. Only one impediment is mentioned, and it is specified in detail. I don't see the need to find alternate explanations...I don't think the text requires it unless you want to mitigate Cat's affect on him.

I agree she is not the only source of feelings for him, but she is the only one keeping him away. Robb, who has strong feelings without the Cat factor, is there a lot, for example.

[butterbumps!]

I am assuming that the strength of his feelings would drive him towards, not away from Bran's bed. Just as his strong feelings drove him south after Ned's arrest, or w/e. so if those feelings are particularly strong, so must be the impediment. Only one impediment is mentioned, and it is specified in detail. I don't see the need to find alternate explanations...I don't think the text requires it unless you want to mitigate Cat's affect on him.

I agree she is not the only source of feelings for him, but she is the only one keeping him away. Robb, who has strong feelings without the Cat factor, is there a lot, for example.

I'm not giving alternate explanations.

The first lines of that chapter are about Jon's emotions about seeing his brother on his deathbed, possibly for the last time. Nothing about Cat or why he hasn't visited yet. That line about Ghost was used to try to argue that Jon was under duress due to Cat. It's not though; it's referring to the fact that this might be his last time.

Then we get the info about staying away due to Cat particularly. This is a deterrent for him wrt Bran. This is separate from his own overwhelming emotions about leaving and Bran.

Then we go back to the non-Cat concerns of Jon's feelings-- he's grieving too, and not simply because of feeling unwelcome because of Cat.

ETA: hang on-- I'm not trying to give alternate explanations for why Jon stays away. I do happen to think that Cat is the main reason he stayed away from Bran for that long as per what he says. As it happens though, Jon does try to put off his goodbyes, and when he was supposed to leave 2 weeks before, he was also filibustering, depressed and angry wrt saying goodbye as per Bran's chapter, so some of Jon's trepidation here is due to his wanting to put off having to confront leaving.

[Dicer]

I could interpret some of the instances quite a bit differently

Jon's "afraid" and draws strength from Ghost. This was brought up earlier as an indication of fear Cat. I'm not certain that in context, Jon's fear here is solely about Cat or even overwhelmingly about Cat. His brother, whom he was close to, has been in a coma for 2 weeks wasting away. Between fear of seeing his brother wasting in a coma and the fact that he's been depressed about the possibility he'll never see Winterfell again, I think this is overwhelmingly what the strength he draws is about here.

As you point out yourself we cannot be certain what this fear is about. It could be about Bran. It could also be about Catelyn. He says he did not come to Bran's room because Catelyn was there. He says he is afraid. As he tells Bran, he could not come before because he was afraid. Why could he not come before? Because of Catelyn. Ergo the reason he could be afraid was because of Catelyn being in that room.

This is the root of Jon's fear-- that Cat could force him out by threatening to call the guards. There's nothing here about Jon fearing she'd say something nasty, lash or anything like that. The issue-- which is confirmed by the dialogue-- is about giving Jon access to his brother in this isolating circumstance.

The topic of the guards comes up much later. I don't think Jon really felt that Catelyn was going to get the guards to drag him out of the room. Hence his bravado when he tells her 'Call them'. Or are we to assume that Catelyn has threatened Jon with guards before if he went near her? I don't think it was the guards that Jon feared in this instant.

The issue that Jon says "would have sent him running/ crying" is simply being ordered out of his brother's room at Cat's command-- it refers to "I told you to leave. We don't want you here." As I wrote before, it's also a conditional statement, meaning, it doesn't confirm that she had, actually made him cry in the past, or that a similar Bran-Jon-Cat isolating scene had come up before.

Disagree. I think it's quite clear what would have once send him running. It's right there in the sentence before that one. We don't want you here. It's been indicated both in Jon's POV and by the author that Catelyn had made it quite clear that she did not want Jon around in Winterfell. Now how she made that clear is up for debate. It could be just cold, judging stares or harsh words. We don't know at this point and we can only speculate. But it's clear to me atleast that Catelyn's "We don't want you here" is what's hurtful to Jon, not being simply ordered out of the room. She does not even use the singular, I but rather the plural We indicating that it's not just her that wants him gone but the family, which can be more hurtful to Jon.

When Cat starts talking to him, Jon is somewhat taken aback-- he looks at her, "wary." It seems likely that she didn't converse with him from his reaction, and the fact that he notes she doesn't seem to be talking to him (more like talking to no one), suggests that this was quite atypical of their interactions.

Where does it say that he was taken aback? He's just wary of her, as he's been since he entered the room.

Here's one of Cat's icy looks in action, but this whole patch of dialogue seems like an aberration.

I know it's an aberration because the Author says so in an SSM. But just from the text there's nothing here that indicates it's an aberration. Jon does not behave as if there's something out of the ordinary happening here.

Further, the fact that when Robb asks if it was Cat, and Jon replies that she was "very kind," Robb is relieved and smiles immediately. He doesn't challenge it, he doesn't ask for confirmation, he doesn't say "Kind? Really?" No, he accepts it at once and smiles. This suggests that, yes, though Robb is aware that Cat doesn't want Jon around her, that she's never acted in such a way where it would be impossible to believe that she could be "very kind" to Jon in a situation.

There could be two other interpretations of Robb's reaction. One, because it's easier to accept the words as truth and part on a happy note. What could Robb have done if Jon had said otherwise. Or two, if he did believe Jon's words he could as well believe that his mother did act out of sorts because of the situation and for a change decided to be kind to Jon because he was leaving, maybe forever.

The fact is, all we can do is speculate about certain things. There is no one way of looking at things or interpreting them.

[butterbumps!]

snip

Your interpretation isn't all that different, really.

The main difference, I think, is that I didn't gloss everything as indicative of Jon-Cat exchanges (which you didn't either, merely presented that as a possible alternative), because it's clear that Jon's emotions here are not exclusively due to Cat, and because the exceptional circumstance of this chapter (Bran is not commonly in a coma with Cat crazed at his bedside nor Jon about to depart Winterfell forever).

I think it's more than the SSM that tells us how exceptional this is. I think we can safely assume that one of Jon's siblings has never been this close to death, Cat this lost to grief, or Jon in turmoil because he's leaving. It's an extremely exceptional scenario, so assuming that this scene reflects anything about the norm of the Cat-Jon dynamic seems a bit dishonest.

What I do agree with you about is that there is an established history, whereby Jon knows he's not wanted (maybe even "not allowed") to come into such close contact with Cat. I think she's sent him away before, avoided him, and given him looks. I do think it's an unspoken rule that Jon isn't to come into such close and isolated quarters. I'm in no way challenging that, and that's pretty much what we see in the first half of their exchange. This is exactly why he puts off the visit as it pertains to Cat.

[Stanerys Snow]

snip

This thread was a very interesting read.

I concur with your view that the main issue within the Jon-Catelyn exchange is that Jon was afraid that Catelyn would send him away before he could say goodbye to Bran, but like Dicer I feel that some of the instances can be interpreted quite differently; especially when you interpret the exchange as a cohesive unit, instead of breaking it down into smaller pieces. I understand that breaking it down into smaller pieces makes it easier to analyze, but I feel that some of the emotion is lost in the process. The alternative interpretations do not paint Catelyn as the devil, but they could certainly be used to argue that Jon was under extreme emotional distress due to his past interactions with Catelyn. I firmly believe the cause of his fear and anxiety over going to see Bran was overwhelmingly on the side of Catelyn's treatment of him and less on the side of Bran's condition.

Jon was afraid that this may be the last time he saw Bran, but his fear seems to be overwhelmingly due to Catelyn. Jon was aware that he was leaving for the Night's Watch before Bran's fall, and he states that he stayed away for 2 weeks after the fall because "Lady Stark" had continually been in the room. This leads me to believe that although he may have been afraid to see Bran in his sickly state, he would have still come to see Bran if not for "Lady Stark" sitting at his bedside, especially a "Lady Stark" that is under emotional duress. Once Jon took strength from Ghost, "he straightened and entered the room". This seems indicative of someone preparing for something that may come at them, and them trying to be strong about it--put up a shield. It can be interpreted that he is trying to be strong to view Bran, but I don't see why he would basically "puff himself up" to see Bran. It seems that he is trying to stay strong against the dismissal he feels may be coming from Catelyn, because he wants to say his goodbyes to Bran. His reservations about her caused him to stay away from Bran until the last possible moment, and even then he has to prepare himself to enter the room. It is worth noting that the first thing Jon observes when he enters the room is "Lady Stark", most likely due his anxiety about her that has been multiplied due to her emotional state.

After gathering his strength to come in the room and observing "Lady Stark", Jon stands at the door afraid to speak or come closer. His entire focus is on Catelyn. He has extreme anxiety over Catelyn, so much so that he wants to flee as soon as she attempts to dismiss him. Jon is drawing strength from both Ghost and Bran to withstand the anxiety he feels over Catelyn, since if it wasn't for Bran he wouldn't be this close to her. Bran is the only reason he takes a step forward and asks "please" when all he really wants to do is run away. As you stated, the root of Jon's fear is and that she can banish him from Bran's room. He was afraid of what she might say or do, which is why she has been his main focus up until this point. I don't think Catelyn has ever threatened to call the guards on Jon before, it seems to be a result of her current distress over Bran. I think she was shocked when Jon asked "please" and further shocked by his proclamation that he refused to leave because Bran was his brother, which caused her to threaten him with the guards. Jon "crossed the room, keeping the bed between them" which showed that he overcame his personal anxiety over Catelyn for the sake of Bran. It was a personal triumph for him to stand up to her, because normally her harsh dismissals or looks towards him would make him leave as abruptly as possible. Catelyn seems to be very taken aback by this turn of events, and relents out of confusion over Jon or sadness over Bran.

At this point, after his personal triumph over Catelyn, Jon is able to pay attention to Bran. Upon viewing the full extent of Bran's injuries, Jon feels ashamed that he allowed his fear of interaction with Catelyn to keep him from seeing Bran. He begins to cry and says how he feels without fear of what Catelyn may say or do, because he has conquered his feelings of fear towards her. No longer restrained by his fear he is able to talk to Bran as his little brother, and he is able to speak of their other family members as if he is one of them. When Catelyn begins to speak of how she prayed that Bran would stay with her instead of going to the Wall, it seems that for a brief moment her sadness over Bran allows her to abandon her contempttowards Jon. Jon is unsure of how to react because this is new territory He doesn't know how his triumph will cause her to treat him, because they are both aware of this shift in their relationship. He tries to comfort her, but that is a step too far for Catelyn, because he is still Jon Snow--the bastard her husband brought him from war.

When reading this scene is it very easy to focus mostly on the emotional struggle going on with Jon, while only giving a fleeting glimpse to the emotional struggle going on within Catelyn. She has been sitting over Bran for weeks, not knowing if he will live or die. She feels she is somewhat responsible for his situation because she prayed that he would stay with her, and now she has her wish in the worst way imaginable. Then Jon Snow comes in and stands up to her, changing their dynamic. The emotional turmoil from Bran combined with the emotionalturmoil from Jon causes her to act out in blind rage(Jon) and sadness(Bran). She calls Jon by name, signifying her awareness of the change in their dynamic, and then she dismisses him in a different kind of way with the line, "it should have been you". I always felt that Jon realized her struggle, and although her comment hurt him he understood where it came from..he had stood up to her, causing her even more pain.

When he's speaking with Robb in the yard, I think Jon lied about Catelyn's actions because he was no longer afraid of her, and at his point his pitied her. I think Robb's reaction signifies that Catelyn has been rude to Jon in the past, but he was happy that she allowed Jon to say goodbye to Bran. I don't believe Robb believed that his mom was welcoming towards Jon, but her simply allowing him to say goodbye would be seen as "kind" since the other children were well aware of their mother's treatment towards Jon. The visit had taken all the strength from Jon because he had to gather the strength to overcome his fear of Catelyn, and he had to gather the strength to say goodbye to Bran.

In an attempt to explain Catelyn's actions, I do not believe it is necessary to dismiss what may or may not have previously taken place between Jon and Catelyn, because their actions in Bran's room seemed very indicative on an ongoing emotionally draining relationship between the two that came to a head when Jon refused to leave Bran's room.

[Dire-Lion]

a close look at Jon II, aGoT

snip

Great reading, One thing I noticed was that Cat's worst lines, "I need no absolution..." and "It should have been you" come after she and Jon have a connection of some sort. Cat reveals to him that she feels guilty for this because she asked her gods to keep Bran in Winterfell and Jon tries to comfort her. She could easily have been trying to reestablish the boundaries that she has already set up with regards to Jon. While I'm not trying to say it was okay for Cat to say these things, they become more forgivable when seen from this angle.

[Minsc]

Jon half-believed that Catelyn grudged him food--IMO this is quite an extreme concept for a kid to internalize and speaks very poorly for the adult in the relationship.

Had a *male* character turned up with this history as a guardian/protector/responsible adult, we'd be in no doubt that his behavior was indicative of a severe character flaw. I do want to excuse Catelyn because of the element of coercion by Ned, but I really cant.

Do you mean like if we had a character mention on how since the age of 9 he had feared living in the shadow of a male character's long face and long sword?

[Bippy]

If Martin didn't describe something, it doesn't automatically mean it didn't happen. We don't witness Cat interacting with Rickon, but, besides Bran, we actually don't witness anyone interacting with Rickon, as far as I can remember. It doesn't mean Rickon was in any way neglected by Ned or Cat, prior to Bran's fall at least. It's just that Martin decided to illustrate Cat's mothering much more through her interactions with almost grown-up Robb, than through her interactions with a little kid like Rickon. And I'm grateful for that, because parenting an infant is an overused vehicle for the depiction of a character's love for children: interactions with adult offspring are infinitely more rewarding in a narrative sense and as a reading experience, than cliched examples of coddling babies. Not to mention it's more efficient: through her interactions with Robb, we get a clear picture of how she treated him when he was a kid, and, by extension, we can imagine how she treated Rickon; the other way around is not possible.

...

This is a very important example of where, in my opinion, you could be somewhat wrong. ASOIAF shows a culture in which children are treated way differently than in our world of today. In ASOIAF, children are not embodiment of their parents affection, but little adults that are going to become proper adults any day now. If one's to state something like "I love children" in their culture, it would be pretty odd. Like: what's not to like about children? As well: what's to inherently like?

And it wasn't unlike that in our world, some decades ago. When I was raised, in the seventies and early eighties, children were much less coddled than they are today, and I'm not sure it was for worse. I never had any doubts about my parents' love for me, but I was also always very aware of what they expect of me.

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post because I hadn't followed the thought out in my head. What I was groping for was this: it is possible/likely that some of the visceral responses to Catelyn's behavior are based in the expectation that the mother will be the more nurturing parent and that, as butterbumps! points out, there's an inherent bias where a reader assumes that, Catelyn having been present in Jon's life, she should necessarily have nurtured him because she was a woman.

And my response to this goes in two directions: firstly, even as a "coddling" woman myself, I recognize that there are other valid ways to parent, and it's possible for a parent to withdraw from young children and nurture adult children and still be a functional part of a family, and this is equally true of both sexes. I think Catelyn is a realistic depiction of such a parent and I would defend her from a charge of being a "bad person" because of a supposed similarity between the treatment of on-screen young Rickon and off-screen young Jon.

But on the other hand, in any society, children tend to build feelings on ANY crumb of minor friendliness ("How was your day?"). And the fact that Catelyn seems to have avoided this with Jon for his whole life (he never recollects ANY positive interaction in his PoVs) seems like a severe anomaly in such a compassionate and warmhearted adult. If I had to reconcile it in a real Catelyn, I don't think I could.

It could just be that it's a gap in the writing: that GRRM is more about the narrative, and as you say, adult narratives are more interesting, and so their past relationship is sketched in roughly as "difficulties-with-stepmother," for later reference. But because the two characters are so interesting and appealing, we keep trying to flesh this out with speculation.

[Bippy]

Do you mean like if we had a character mention on how since the age of 9 he had feared living in the shadow of a male character's long face and long sword?

Sure. It sheds a disturbing light on Ned's interactions with Theon and is one of his (ETA: Ned's) major bits of greyness, in my eyes.

[Dire-Lion]

Do you mean like if we had a character mention on how since the age of 9 he had feared living in the shadow of a male character's long face and long sword?

IMO the Theon comparison isn't a good one. Theon was basically a prisoner in Winterfell, kept there to ensure his father's good behavior, not a guest or a half brother being raised as an equal. Even Ned was afraid that one day he would have to execute Theon, that is why he kept his distance.

[Minsc]

IMO the Theon comparison isn't a good one. Theon was basically a prisoner in Winterfell, kept there to ensure his father's good behavior, not a guest or a half brother being raised as an equal. Even Ned was afraid that one day he would have to execute Theon, that is why he kept his distance.

Ah yes because taking an innocent child hostage in order to ensure their father's good behavior is more acceptable then being cold to your husband's bastard.

[The Wolves]

Even Ned was afraid that one day he would have to execute Theon, that is why he kept his distance.

I honestly think Ned kept his distance from Theon because he's naturally a distant person. Evryone besides his children remarked on how Ned was distance, even Catelyn was kept at a distance from Ned. I don't think any of his children ever felt distant from Ned ever.

And I think Ned did good towards Theon he educated him, disciplined him, and fed and clothed him.

But it wasn't fair for Theon as a child to feel such a threat as being put to death by Ned.

[Stanerys Snow]

Ah yes because taking an innocent child hostage in order to ensure their father's good behavior is more acceptable then being cold to your husband's bastard.

Actually, it is.

Ned had a responsibility to his king and to the North. Balon Greyjoy posed a serious threat, especially since he was allowed to live, and Theon somewhat neutralized that threat. Ned was fair to Theon, even though Theon was basically his prisoner. He tried to raise Theon to be a man that was better than his father, even Theon remembers Ned fondly in retrospect.

[Dire-Lion]

Ah yes because taking an innocent child hostage in order to ensure their father's good behavior is more acceptable then being cold to your husband's bastard.

Hey, it would keep most people from rebelling, and was common practice throughout history. Ned probably didn't have a choice, as Robert would have insisted on it. Unless you prefer the alternative, which would be to kill Balon, Theon, Asha, and all of Balon's brothers, and give the lordship to someone "more worthy", is that acceptable?

[Bippy]

I think the Ned/Theon problem is an issue of character consistency as with Catelyn.

Ned abandoned Robert in KL because of the murder of Rhaegar's children. It is strange (to quote myself, "a severe anomaly in such a compassionate and warmhearted adult") that he'd then put himself in a position to execute/murder Theon.

[Minsc]

Actually, it is.

Ned had a responsibility to his king and to the North. Balon Greyjoy posed a serious threat, especially since he was allowed to live, and Theon somewhat neutralized that threat.

So Ned was punishing an innocent child for the crimes/threat that his father posed that seems familiar to something that is routinely criticized when discussing two other characters interactions.

[Dire-Lion]

So Ned was punishing an innocent child for the crimes/threat that his father posed that seems familiar to something that is routinely criticized when discussing two other characters interactions.

No, Ned was punishing Balon for rebelling. Not Theon, he was treated respectfully and raised similar to the Stark children. Ned just didn't want to bond with him because he knew that one day he might be forced to kill him, and was uncomfortable with that fact.

[Dicer]

Ned was fair to Theon, even though Theon was basically his prisoner. He tried to raise Theon to be a man that was better than his father, even Theon remembers Ned fondly in retrospect.

And gave him the respect due his position. Theon was seated with the rest of the high lords when the royal party visited.

But still, the practice of holding child hostages is wrong. Theon was taken away from a mother he loved most dearly and who loved him just so that his father would behave.

Holding Theon hostage and beheading the deserter from the NW (Gared) are a couple of things I dislike about Ned.