The Cat-Jon-Ned Debacle (long)

[Arya kiddin']

At some point Jon reflects that Catelyn begrudges him every bite of food (paraphrase), so Jon certainly feels that it is true. I don't recall any evidence proving that Cat actually felt this way.

:frown5:

[SeanF]

While no one would expect Catelyn to love Jon, she had no cause to be cruel; to a young child and to begrudge him even food. It is a big black mark against Catelyn

Had Ned died while Jon was younger he perhaps would have exacted a promise from Cat to care for Jon, but she like the vicious Mrs Reed in Jane Eyre or Cinderella's step mother would have broken this promise and been cruel. She woud certainly have sent him away.

It was only the presence of Ned that stopped cat being outright cruel.

I think the whole idea of the Undead Cat is that it brings out he inner self ie empathizes certain basic personality characteristics. In Cat there is a cruel and vengeful streak.

She is not a BAD person but is also not the motherly figure some choose to portray.

By contrast think of Lady Smallwood who mothered Arya as best she could, treating her like her own daughter.

I doubt if she'd have been actively cruel towards Jon, had Ned died. I imagine she'd have sent him away as a squire, provided him with an allowance, and tried to have as little as possible to do with him.

[David Selig]

Does that actually happen? (the bold part)

Well, Jon thinks at one point "As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite.". But he's somewhat of a drama queen and biased, so I think he was wrong on this.

Had Ned died while Jon was younger he perhaps would have exacted a promise from Cat to care for Jon, but she like the vicious Mrs Reed in Jane Eyre or Cinderella's step mother would have broken this promise and been cruel. She woud certainly have sent him away.

Catelyn doesn't break her promises. Ever.

Why would sending him away be cruel, BTW? That's what happens to pretty much every noble kid in Westeros - they are fostered or become squares away from home.

[Sansa_Stark]

Well, Jon thinks at one point "As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite.". But he's somewhat of a drama queen and biased, so I think he was wrong on this.

Catelyn doesn't break her promises. Ever.

Why would sending him away be cruel, BTW? That's what happens to pretty much every noble kid in Westeros - they are fostered or become squares away from home.

lol Its already been established that Jon Snow is actually very perceptive when reading people. More likely Cat did begrudge him every bite

[Daphne23]

In Cat there is a cruel and vengeful streak.

Definitely...

Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy... but I understand futility. We went to war when Lannister armies were ravaging the riverlands, and Ned was a prisoner, falsely accused of treason. We fought to defend ourselves, and to win my lord's freedom.

Well, the one is done, and the other forever beyond our reach. I will mourn for Ned until the end of my days, but I must think of the living. I want my daughters back, and the queen holds them still. If I must trade our four Lannisters for their two Starks, I will call that a bargain and thank the gods. I want you safe, Robb, ruling at Winterfell from your father’s seat. I want you to live your life, to kiss a girl and wed a woman and father a son. I want to write an end to this. I want to go home, my lords, and weep for my husband.

To be clear, I actually agree that Cat desires vengeance at certain points in the narrative; but she never acts on these thoughts until she becomes undead, and even then, I'm not sure that Uncat's justice is really that unjust, or indiscriminately vengeful.

Oh, yea, I'd originally thought to do a tri-part series on this, with a forth about a discussion of the way the books are crafted that sets up early favoritism and antagonists that tend to shadow subsequent character perception.

The Catnap is the big thing I feel Cat's really in the right about. On Jaime-gate, I'm less decided about how I feel-- I don't have a strong "Cat was right! or Cat was wrong!" stance. Since these tend to require a lot of commitment (in terms of researching, writing, keeping abreast of responses), I'm not in a hurry to do Jaime-gate for a little while, but I do plan to make one.

Excellent news! (It sounds like our views on 'Jaime-gate' are similar, as well.)

[Dicer]

I in no way let Cat off the hook for what she says to Jon. It was heartless, unnecessary, and unforgivable.

Sometimes words have the power to hurt more than physical wounds. Injuries can heal over time, but words once said can never be taken back. Those words are the last thing Jon hears from her. I don't think Catelyn cared very much what Jon thinks of her, but now that she's dead, Jon's final memory of her is their interaction in Bran's room.

Catelyn doesn't break her promises. Ever.

Why would sending him away be cruel, BTW? That's what happens to pretty much every noble kid in Westeros - they are fostered or become squares away from home.

No she would not break her promise. Rather she would not make that promise in the first place. After all she refused to have Jon at Winterfell even after Ned pleaded with her.

As for sending Jon away, I guess if she send Robb and Bran away too then there's nothing wrong with that. But as we saw, she hated to be parted from Bran and there were no plans to send Robb away.

So it would be just Jon being send away and yes, making that distinction would be cruel.

[Sansa_Stark]

Sometimes words have the power to hurt more than physical wounds. Injuries can heal over time, but words once said can never be taken back. Those words are the last thing Jon hears from her. I don't think Catelyn cared very much what Jon thinks of her, but now that she's dead, Jon's final memory of her is their interaction in Bran's room.

No she would not break her promise. Rather she would not make that promise in the first place. After all she refused to have Jon at Winterfell even after Ned pleaded with her.

As for sending Jon away, I guess if she send Robb and Bran away too then there's nothing wrong with that. But as we saw, she hated to be parted from Bran and there were no plans to send Robb away.

So it would be just Jon being send away and yes, making that distinction would be cruel.

Tell that to Theon. :(

[SeanF]

I actually agree with you Butterbumps in regard to to Cat needing to be the one to kiss the boo boos. My real point was that Martin deliberately wrote the story this way. Any other way and we do not get sullen Jon Snow dreaming of going to the Wall to forge a new identity for himself. Also I am struck by the word Martin used in Catelyn's response to Jon's offered comfort.. " I need no absolution from you bastard."

I am stepping back from the emotional responses that Martin's words cause some of us to respond to and just looking at what the character said..I believe a clue was given in that one word absolution. It will be interesting to see how the story arch of Catelyn and her motiff of duty and family resolves itself as Lady Stoneheart in the future books. I still believe Martin has written her story arch with a purpose and that purpose lies in the future with Jon Snow.

Not sure I was clear enough in regard to Cat needing to be the surgate mother to Jon..no no no..another wet nurse or woman for Jon would be in order for sure but Martin did not write it that way for a purpose is my theory.

Not just in the story, but in real life, it's been very common till recently, for young upper-class children to spend relatively little time with their parents, compared to the amount of time they spend with nannies, governesses, tutors, and at boarding school. I don't really think Jon suffers much from the absence of a mother figure, any more than such children have.

[Dicer]

Tell that to Theon. :(

That's why I said ' Sometimes'. :)

I don't really think Jon suffers much from the absence of a mother figure, any more than such children have.

It's not really the absence, but the exclusionary behavior that's more hurtful. Catelyn made it clear she wanted him gone, she treated him differently as opposed to the rest of his siblings.

Now in the modern scenario, if the step kid is send away to boarding school or taken care of by nannies while step mother takes care of her own children, would that be hurtful to the step kid? I would think so.

I don't think the situations or the scenarios are comparable.

[David Selig]

lol Its already been established that Jon Snow is actually very perceptive when reading people. More likely Cat did begrudge him every bite

It is? Where? He thought Tyrion was a great guy and that Myrcella was insipid and stupid.

And Cat in her PoV states that she expected Ned to see to his bastard child's needs and had no problem with that.

[Blueberry Stark]

Sometimes words have the power to hurt more than physical wounds. Injuries can heal over time, but words once said can never be taken back. Those words are the last thing Jon hears from her. I don't think Catelyn cared very much what Jon thinks of her, but now that she's dead, Jon's final memory of her is their interaction in Bran's room.

What Catelyn said was unforgivable, and doubtlessly she hurt him. He admits that it hurt, and he wishes that he had walked away. I understand your point that words have the power to hurt more than physical wounds, which can sometimes heal; however, what she said isn't as damaging as if it had come from Ned, for instance. Jon knew that Catelyn didn't love him, and he knew that she wasn't his mother. Even though she was grief stricken, there was no need for her to say it, and if I were Jon I doubt that I'd find it easy to forgive. I just want to stress that I understand the gravity of what she said, and that I don't find it excusable, but it's probably no as bad as being beaten, or starved, or raped, etc. In a nutshell, I agree that emotional abuse can, at times, be as damaging as physical or sexual abuse IF it is coming from someone who is supposed to love the abusee. I just don't think that Jon had the kind of relationship with Cat, although maybe it would have been kinder if she had just slapped him, IDK.

[Sansa_Stark]

It is? Where? He thought Tyrion was a great guy and that Myrcella was insipid and stupid.

And Cat in her PoV states that she expected Ned to see to his bastard child's needs and had no problem with that.

In the beginning of the series.

"Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. “You don’t miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall.”

And Tyrion definitely has his good qualities despite what you might argue. He does have his wisdom and he is very intelligent.

And Myrcella? He has never spoken to her. He just thought her insipid because she saw him walking with Robb and likely she did look silly. Robb sure did.

He has lived with Catelyn for 14 years and she "begrudged him EVERY bite"

Every last bite which means that surely every time Jon was eating with her he must have noticed off looks and hate.

Clearly there is something to that quote.

[Sansa_Stark]

What Catelyn said was unforgivable, and doubtlessly she hurt him. He admits that it hurt, and he wishes that he had walked away. I understand your point that words have the power to hurt more than physical wounds, which can sometimes heal; however, what she said isn't as damaging as if it had come from Ned, for instance. Jon knew that Catelyn didn't love him, and he knew that she wasn't his mother. Even though she was grief stricken, there was no need for her to say it, and if I were Jon I doubt that I'd find it easy to forgive. I just want to stress that I understand the gravity of what she said, and that I don't find it excusable, but it's probably no as bad as being beaten, or starved, or raped, etc. In a nutshell, I agree that emotional abuse can, at times, be as damaging as physical or sexual abuse IF it is coming from someone who is supposed to love the abusee. I just don't think that Jon had the kind of relationship with Cat, although maybe it would have been kinder if she had just slapped him, IDK.

No trust me people have verbally abused me in ways you cannot imagine it does not hurt that much.

Usually I just cry myself to sleep and get over the next day. It literally took me years to forgive my dad for his constant verbal abuse towards me at a certain point in my life, and the things he said were 1000x worse than what Catelyn did.

And trust me I will tell you that physical abuse is likely 1000x worse.

[James March x2]

No trust me people have verbally abused me in ways you cannot imagine it does not hurt that much.

Usually I just cry myself to sleep and get over the next day. It literally took me years to forgive my dad for his constant verbal abuse towards me at a certain point in my life, and the things he said were 1000x worse than what Catelyn did.

And trust me I will tell you that physical abuse is likely 1000x worse.

Was this supposed to be a comparison?

Jon has grown up like that, he knew only that kind of harsh behaviour and did not have any other figure that could give him the love any human being needs.

What grown up men or children with other sources of joy can bare to endure is by no means a fair comparison with his own situation.

[Sansa_Stark]

Was this supposed to be a comparison?

Jon has grown up like that, he knew only that kind of harsh behaviour and did not have any other figure that could give him the love any human being needs.

What grown up men or children with other sources of joy can bare to endure is by no means a fair comparison with his own situation.

okay

He has several other members of family who love him.

Arya, Robb, Bran and Ned.

Most of my family hates me.

[David Selig]

In the beginning of the series.

"Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. “You don’t miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall.”

Well, if Benjen, who probably meets Jon once at year at most, says so, when trying to raise his nephew's spirits, since he saw him sulking about being seated away from the royal table then it must be true...

[SeanF]

Overall, my attitude towards Jon, at this early stage of the story, is similar to Donal Noye's. Yes, it would be nice if Catelyn had been kind towards him, but really he should count his blessings.

[James March x2]

okay

He has several other members of family who love him.

Arya, Robb, Bran and Ned.

Most of my family hates me.

For a child having child "friends" or a Mother's love are different. Also, Catelyn's children are divided up inbetween their friendship feelings for Jon and their full-of-love relationship with a mother that certainly does not encourage nor appreciate their closeness to jon. If you've been close to children you understand how much that can affect their own PoV when they are young.

Ned Stark is the only good candidate, and indeed Jon found refugee inside his "embrace" by learning to believe in the same principles that Ned Stark believed in, and trying to be a perfect "knight" in that sense. Yet a father love - especially of the Ned category - and a mother love, are fairly distinct.

I don't know what this thread has become.. nobody denies hurt has been made, nobody denies it has been cruel and inevitable, nobody denies it had some long-term consequences and that jon didn't enjoy too much his childhood, nobody would sentence Catelyn to death for a mistake that is clearly in human nature.. so what is the point of making a race to decide who suffers the most/less or who has less reason/responsibility for what happened?

[Sansa_Stark]

For a child having child "friends" or a Mother's love are different. Also, Catelyn's children are divided up inbetween their friendship feelings for Jon and their full-of-love relationship with a mother that certainly does not encourage nor appreciate their closeness to jon. If you've been close to children you understand how much that can affect their own PoV when they are young.

Ned Stark is the only good candidate, and indeed Jon found refugee inside his "embrace" by learning to believe in the same principles that Ned Stark believed in, and trying to be a perfect "knight" in that sense. Yet a father love - especially of the Ned category - and a mother love, are fairly distinct.

I don't know what this thread has become.. nobody denies hurt has been made, nobody denies it has been cruel and inevitable, nobody denies it had some long-term consequences and that jon didn't enjoy too much his childhood, nobody would sentence Catelyn to death for a mistake that is clearly in human nature.. so what is the point of making a race to decide who suffers the most/less or who has less reason/responsibility for what happened?

No. Most of the Stark family love Jon as their own. The only one who is divided with their feelings about Jon is Sansa, who is the most Cat like of the Stark family.

But I admit, I wasn't trying to turn this into a comparison, I was merely stating that coming from my own experience, verbal abuse wasn't too terrible and after a certain point, after its over, you have to get over it completely and its not very hard.

[Djinn]

''Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn't’t even have the sense to realize how stupid she was''-regarding Myrcella

''He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon’s vast dismay.

...but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.''-regarding Joffrey

''They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered "Kingslayer" behind his back.

Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.''-regarding Jaime

''Dareon was quick but afraid of being hit. Pyp used his sword like a dagger, Jeren was weak as a girl, Grenn slow and clumsy. Halder’s blows were brutally hard but he ran right into your attacks. The more time he spent with them, the more Jon despised them.''

"They’re not my brothers," Jon snapped. "They hate me because I’m better than they are." -regarding the NW recruits

''When they finally spied Castle Black, its timbered keeps and stone towers looked like nothing more than a handful of toy blocks scattered on the snow, beneath the vast wall of ice. The ancient stronghold of the black brothers was no Winterfell, no true castle at all. Lacking walls, it could not be defended, not from the south, or east, or west ''-regarding Castle Black