"Sweetness" as a Negative in ASOIAF, The Blue Flower in the Wall of Ice, and Dany's Future

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm with Greymoon here. The heavy use of the word sweet with negative connotations doesn't mean that it is always negative. It depends heavily on the context - the context establishes if it pertains its original, positive connotations, or if it is subverged into a negative meaning, e.g. with irony (Tyrion's sweet sister) or other connotations (cloyingly or sickeningly sweet or the sweet smell of death). The last example is not even specific for GRRM, if you have ever smelt something decomposing, there is certain sickening sweetness to it, so this is basically a realistic description, not a subversion of the meaning.

Nobody, as far as I know, is saying that it is always negative. Only that it is very often negative. As in, GRRM seems to have gone out of his way to use "sweet" ironically. It's a loaded word, and therefore its use in the all-important HotU is highly suspicious.

I think you are both correct that context matters. Also, you have to look at the vision as a whole, a blue flower growing out of a chink of ice, we can imagine that the blue flour represents Lyanna, however, a flower growing out of a chink of ice can also denote resiliency and if sweetness does indeed mean death or deceit in this instance then the vision is transformed into something else. Resiliency in the face of death, in the face of deceit, that sounds very much like Jon.

That could very well be the case. After all, the blue rose is symbolic of Jon Snow's true identity.

[Ygrain]

Nobody, as far as I know, is saying that it is always negative. Only that it is very often negative. As in, GRRM seems to have gone out of his way to use "sweet" ironically. It's a loaded word, and therefore its use in the all-important HotU is highly suspicious.

I don't think so - I'd say that this is one of the instances of sweet in its natural use, describing the rose scent, similarly as when Catelyn refers to her children as sweet. Natural context, positive connotations.

[alienarea]

I don't think so - I'd say that this is one of the instances of sweet in its natural use, describing the rose scent, similarly as when Catelyn refers to her children as sweet. Natural context, positive connotations.

Since blue roses aren't natural they cannot have a natural scent, can they?

[Ygrain]

Since blue roses aren't natural they cannot have a natural scent, can they?

In ASOIAF, they are natural, and Lyanna loved their scent. Blue, white, yellow, red, roses smell sweet and it is a positive feature.

[J. Stargaryen]

I don't think so - I'd say that this is one of the instances of sweet in its natural use, describing the rose scent, similarly as when Catelyn refers to her children as sweet. Natural context, positive connotations.

AGoT, Daenyers I:

Her brother smiled. “Good.” He touched her hair, almost with affection. “When they write the history of my reign, sweet sister, they will say that it began tonight.”

She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, halfblind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her “Little Princess” and sometimes “My Lady,” and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever. They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper’s hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.

“We will have it all back someday, sweet sister,” he would promise her. Sometimes his hands shook when he talked about it. “The jewels and the silks, Dragonstone and King’s Landing, the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms, all they have taken from us, we will have it back.” Viserys lived for that day. All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

Dany had no agents, no way of knowing what anyone was doing or thinking across the narrow sea, but she mistrusted Illyrio’s sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio. Her brother was nodding eagerly, however. “I shall kill the Usurper myself,” he promised, who had never killed anyone, “as he killed my brother Rhaegar. And Lannister too, the Kingslayer, for what he did to my father.”

Inside the manse, the air was heavy with the scent of spices, pinchfire and sweet lemon and cinnamon. They were escorted across the entry hall, where a mosaic of colored glass depicted the Doom of Valyria. Oil burned in black iron lanterns all along the walls. Beneath an arch of twining stone leaves, a eunuch sang their coming. “Viserys of the House Targaryen, the Third of his Name,” he called in a high, sweet voice, “King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. His sister, Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone. His honorable host, Illyrio Mopatis, Magister of the Free City of Pentos.”

Her brother took her by the arm as Illyrio waddled over to the khal, his fingers squeezing so hard that they hurt. “Do you see his braid, sweet sister?”

“Home?” He kept his voice low, but she could hear the fury in his tone. “How are we to go home, sweet sister? They took our home from us!” He drew her into the shadows, out of sight, his fingers digging into her skin. “How are we to go home?” he repeated, meaning King’s Landing, and Dragonstone, and all the realm they had lost.

“I do,” he said sharply. “We go home with an army, sweet sister. With Khal Drogo’s army, that is how we go home. And if you must wed him and bed him for that, you will.” He smiled at her. “I’d let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army. Be grateful it is only Drogo. In time you may even learn to like him. Now dry your eyes. Illyrio is bringing him over, and he will not see you crying.”

This is Dany's first chapter in the story, and GRRM uses "sweet" ten times, with eight of those having clear negative connotations. It's more of the same in the rest of her AGoT chapters, though the word doesn't occur as often, and the ratio of negative-positive drops somewhat, with the exception of the chapter where the whine seller tries to give her the poisoned wine. So yeah, GRRM really loads up on the sweetness as a negative in Dany's chapters, right from the beginning.

Also, another point is that "filled the air with sweetness..." doesn't have to be completely good or bad, but only bad from Dany's POV. Her death could very well be a good thing for the majority of Westeros and the known world.

[Ygrain]

This is Dany's first chapter in the story, and GRRM uses "sweet" ten times, with eight of those having clear negative connotations. It's more of the same in the rest of her AGoT chapters, though the word doesn't occur as often, and the ratio of negative-positive drops somewhat, with the exception of the chapter where the whine seller tries to give her the poisoned wine. So yeah, GRRM really loads up on the sweetness as a negative in Dany's chapters, right from the beginning.

Also, another point is that "filled the air with sweetness..." doesn't have to be completely good or bad, but only bad from Dany's POV. Her death could very well be a good thing for the majority of Westeros and the known world.

Actually, you shouldn't count just occurence but its type, and the majority of these examples is not just "sweet" itself but "sweet sister", which should be endearing but is not, and its purpose is to show what a viper of a human and a crappy brother Viserys is, hence the overuse. I don't think that "sweet" itself is what gets negative connotation here, it whould be the whole phrase, "sweet sister", and purely for Dany.

Sweet words or sweet voice for deceit/flattery is a common figure of speech, not an invention of GRRM's, and is again used for characterisation. The sweet smell of Darry's sickness is the same case as with Tywin's decomposition - natural use, as with the perfumes.

I'm sorry but statistics here leads to overgeneralisation. The negative connotations are context-specific, and as Dany's life at this point is rather crappy and this is an introductory chapter, the higher occurence of negative features is hardly surprising.

[J. Stargaryen]

1) Actually, you shouldn't count just occurence but its type, and the majority of these examples is not just "sweet" itself but "sweet sister", which should be endearing but is not, and its purpose is to show what a viper of a human and a crappy brother Viserys is, hence the overuse. I don't think that "sweet" itself is what gets negative connotation here, it whould be the whole phrase, "sweet sister", and purely for Dany.

2) Sweet words or sweet voice for deceit/flattery is a common figure of speech, not an invention of GRRM's, and is again used for characterisation. The sweet smell of Darry's sickness is the same case as with Tywin's decomposition - natural use, as with the perfumes.

3) I'm sorry but statistics here leads to overgeneralisation. The negative connotations are context-specific, and as Dany's life at this point is rather crappy and this is an introductory chapter, the higher occurence of negative features is hardly surprising.

1) "Sweet sister" contains the word "sweet," so your objection is unfounded. I mean is your argument seriously- because it's a phrase it doesn't count? And if its use is meant to show that Viserys is a viper, then Tyrion and Jaime must be as well, since they both refer to Cersei as "sweet sister." Not to mention their "sweet brother" exchange at breakfast in Winterfell.

2) I'm not really sure why you think GRRM must have had to invent the ironic use of sweet for it to have the type of impact that lots of us think it does. What's wrong with using literary conventions? He didn't invent dragons; he didn't invent magic; he didn't invent irony, so I'm not sure what your argument here is getting at. Again, it's not the use, it's the heavily repeated use of sweet(ness) as a negative. It's a pattern.

3) You don't get to just dismiss evidence that doesn't suit your argument. Statistics lead to overgeneralization- what does that even mean?

And, sure, while crappy things may happen in Dany's life, any competent author, or even a hack with a thesaurus, could manage to describe these conditions without repeatedly using "sweet" ironically.

ETA: One thing that stands out to me, looking at Dany's chapters in AGoT, is that "sweet(-ness, -ly)" occurs most in Dany's first chapter – setting up the concept of sweet as a negative – and the one where the wine seller tries to give her the poisoned wine. Coincidence?

---

As for context and connotation, was the HotU positive or negative for Dany? What about blue roses? Well, Bael the Bard and the Stark girl both ended up dying as a result of their interaction, for lack of a better word. Same for Rhaegar and Lyanna. Bael's son met an ugly end as well. Lots of death around the blue roses.

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

---

Just as a reminder, this discovery was made because some of the people who were shipping Jon and Dany were using the blue flower ... sweetness line as proof of that ship because "sweetness" has a positive connotation. It was only in reply to this that danm_99 showed that GRRM often uses "sweet(ness)" ironically.

[MoIaF]

Also, another point is that "filled the air with sweetness..." doesn't have to be completely good or bad, but only bad from Dany's POV. Her death could very well be a good thing for the majority of Westeros and the known world.

I'd say it's actually bad for Jon, not Dany. In the examples used those who smelled sweetly were the ones dead or dying. And when it wasn't death but deceit those who wanted to deceive her didn't fare very well.

Also to consider as Ygrain mentioned is the possibility that it might not be negative at all but a mere description of a flour, which usually smell sweet. Dany didn't seem to preserve anything negative in the vision as with the examples above.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'd say it's actually bad for Jon, not Dany. In the examples used those who smelled sweetly were the ones dead or dying. And when it wasn't death but deceit those who wanted to deceive her didn't fare very well.

Also to consider as Ygrain mentioned is the possibility that it might not be negative at all but a mere description of a flour, which usually smell sweet. Dany didn't seem to preserve anything negative in the vision as with the examples above.

1) I was only using an example. I'm not sure exactly how it will play out. Will Jon and Dany be adversaries? Or might it be something along the lines of Dany dying in childbirth, pregnant with Jon's child?

2) It's both. It's literally a description of a flower, but it's symbolically something else. Or at least that is the idea.

[RoamingRonin]

"Grand Maester Pycelle has always been a good friend to your House," Varys said sweetly [to Tyrion].

Oh, snap.

[Ygrain]

1) "Sweet sister" contains the word "sweet," so your objection is unfounded. I mean is your argument seriously- because it's a phrase it doesn't count? And if its use is meant to show that Viserys is a viper, then Tyrion and Jaime must be as well, since they both refer to Cersei as "sweet sister." Not to mention their "sweet brother" exchange at breakfast in Winterfell.

2) I'm not really sure why you think GRRM must have had to invent the ironic use of sweet for it to have the type of impact that lots of us think it does. What's wrong with using literary conventions? He didn't invent dragons; he didn't invent magic; he didn't invent irony, so I'm not sure what your argument here is getting at. Again, it's not the use, it's the heavily repeated use of sweet(ness) as a negative. It's a pattern.

3) You don't get to just dismiss evidence that doesn't suit your argument. Statistics lead to overgeneralization- what does that even mean?

And, sure, while crappy things may happen in Dany's life, any competent author, or even a hack with a thesaurus, could manage to describe these conditions without repeatedly using "sweet" ironically.

ETA: One thing that stands out to me, looking at Dany's chapters in AGoT, is that "sweet(-ness, -ly)" occurs most in Dany's first chapter – setting up the concept of sweet as a negative – and the one where the wine seller tries to give her the poisoned wine. Coincidence?

---

As for context and connotation, was the HotU positive or negative for Dany? What about blue roses? Well, Bael the Bard and the Stark girl both ended up dying as a result of their interaction, for lack of a better word. Same for Rhaegar and Lyanna. Bael's son met an ugly end as well. Lots of death around the blue roses.

---

Just as a reminder, this discovery was made because some of the people who were shipping Jon and Dany were using the blue flower ... sweetness line as proof of that ship because "sweetness" has a positive connotation. It was only in reply to this that danm_99 showed that GRRM often uses "sweet(ness)" ironically.

I'll try again and hopefully better, as it was rather late when I was writing that previous post.

Meaning is context-based, and so are connotations. The most frequent connotations are default and are considered stylistically neutral - in case of "sweet", positive. If you want to establish that an author intentionally sets a different meaning/connotations, you have to look at the context and check if the use deviates from a common one, i.e. becomes stylistically marked. Thus, Catelyn referring to her own children as "sweet" is stylistically neutral because it is used in the default positive meaning, whereas Tyrion adressing Cersei as "sweet sister" is marked because he means the very opposite.

However, both examples are stylistically marked because this use of "sweet" is archaic, and this is what makes the preceived negativity of "sweet" more prominent - an accumulation of markers. Similarly, Viserys' use of "sweet sister" is also cumulative of markers - it's archaic, it does not pertain the original sense (it's not used ironically but it's devoid of the usual emotional attachment - I don't know what to call it, inversion?) and it's repetitive within a short span of text. The inversion and the repetition modify the meaning of "sweet" in this particular context of the Dany-Viserys relationship but do not extend to other possible contexts for "sweet" - the same as calling someone ironically "my dear" (stylistically marked) doesn't affect the meaning of a hypothetical prophecy "a blue rose will be dear to you" (stylistically neutral because pertaining the default positive meaning; the context lacks any negative modifiers).

The same applies to "sweetness" in connection with the blue rose on the Wall - "sweet" and "rose" is a common collocation, stylistically unmarked. The context does not provide any negative markers or modifiers, rather the contrary, suggesting a positive feature of resilience, hence there is no basis for the claim that in this particular context "sweet" could have negative connotations.

My apologies for any wrong terminology, I'm sure my linguistics got rusty over the years.

[Cruella]

I don't see anything unusual about GRRM's use of "sweet", as a wannabe-writer I also definitely use expressions like sickeningly sweet, sweet smell of rot and death (it's much more ewww-y this way), an unpleasant character can use overly sweet parfume (and it's going to seem off putting). It's all banal stuff that was used before and will be used again. When writers describe a bed of a person who has some disgusting illness and takes their time dying "sweet" smell will be there, save few exceptions. It's both true and makes reader want to throw up, win-win.

A sweet smell of, say, wild flowers, still will be something genuinely sweet with no negative connotations.

Saying something "sweetly" also would much more naturally be used when a character is being clearly fake, or mockingly syrupy sweet. The opposite just feels weird to me.

[MoIaF]

1) I was only using an example. I'm not sure exactly how it will play out. Will Jon and Dany be adversaries? Or might it be something along the lines of Dany dying in childbirth, pregnant with Jon's child?

2) It's both. It's literally a description of a flower, but it's symbolically something else. Or at least that is the idea.

2. Well, that was what I was trying to get at in my previous post (with the blue flour growing out of a chink of ice implying resiliency as well as Lyanna) If you look at the entire context of the vision it's a lot more complicated than "sweetness always means something bad for Dany's POV". Sorry, if I wasn't clear.

In the instances used in the OP, yes, sweetness was used negatively, but because the context in which it was used, was negative. There isn't anything apparently negative in the vision Dany has, in fact it is a positive vision and Dany (as far as we know, as readers) see's it that way as well. Unlike, the other instances where sweet(ness) was used negatively which Dany almost always recognized it for what it was.

I don't have my book with me right now, but in that same HOTU vision Dany says something along the lines regrinding a vision of Sir Darry " the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago" she uses sweet in a positive way barely a page before she has the vision of the blue flour.

I'll try again and hopefully better, as it was rather late when I was writing that previous post.

Meaning is context-based, and so are connotations. The most frequent connotations are default and are considered stylistically neutral - in case of "sweet", positive. If you want to establish that an author intentionally sets a different meaning/connotations, you have to look at the context and check if the use deviates from a common one, i.e. becomes stylistically marked. Thus, Catelyn referring to her own children as "sweet" is stylistically neutral because it is used in the default positive meaning, whereas Tyrion adressing Cersei as "sweet sister" is marked because he means the very opposite.

However, both examples are stylistically marked because this use of "sweet" is archaic, and this is what makes the preceived negativity of "sweet" more prominent - an accumulation of markers. Similarly, Viserys' use of "sweet sister" is also cumulative of markers - it's archaic, it does not pertain the original sense (it's not used ironically but it's devoid of the usual emotional attachment - I don't know what to call it, inversion?) and it's repetitive within a short span of text. The inversion and the repetition modify the meaning of "sweet" in this particular context of the Dany-Viserys relationship but do not extend to other possible contexts for "sweet" - the same as calling someone ironically "my dear" (stylistically marked) doesn't affect the meaning of a hypothetical prophecy "a blue rose will be dear to you" (stylistically neutral because pertaining the default positive meaning; the context lacks any negative modifiers).

The same applies to "sweetness" in connection with the blue rose on the Wall - "sweet" and "rose" is a common collocation, stylistically unmarked. The context does not provide any negative markers or modifiers, rather the contrary, suggesting a positive feature of resilience, hence there is no basis for the claim that in this particular context "sweet" could have negative connotations.

My apologies for any wrong terminology, I'm sure my linguistics got rusty over the years.

Very well said.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'll try again and hopefully better, as it was rather late when I was writing that previous post.

Meaning is context-based, and so are connotations. The most frequent connotations are default and are considered stylistically neutral - in case of "sweet", positive. If you want to establish that an author intentionally sets a different meaning/connotations, you have to look at the context and check if the use deviates from a common one, i.e. becomes stylistically marked. Thus, Catelyn referring to her own children as "sweet" is stylistically neutral because it is used in the default positive meaning, whereas Tyrion adressing Cersei as "sweet sister" is marked because he means the very opposite.

However, both examples are stylistically marked because this use of "sweet" is archaic, and this is what makes the preceived negativity of "sweet" more prominent - an accumulation of markers. Similarly, Viserys' use of "sweet sister" is also cumulative of markers - it's archaic, it does not pertain the original sense (it's not used ironically but it's devoid of the usual emotional attachment - I don't know what to call it, inversion?) and it's repetitive within a short span of text. The inversion and the repetition modify the meaning of "sweet" in this particular context of the Dany-Viserys relationship but do not extend to other possible contexts for "sweet" - the same as calling someone ironically "my dear" (stylistically marked) doesn't affect the meaning of a hypothetical prophecy "a blue rose will be dear to you" (stylistically neutral because pertaining the default positive meaning; the context lacks any negative modifiers).

The same applies to "sweetness" in connection with the blue rose on the Wall - "sweet" and "rose" is a common collocation, stylistically unmarked. The context does not provide any negative markers or modifiers, rather the contrary, suggesting a positive feature of resilience, hence there is no basis for the claim that in this particular context "sweet" could have negative connotations.

My apologies for any wrong terminology, I'm sure my linguistics got rusty over the years.

I completely disagree with the bolded. The negative connotation would be implied at that point, at least possibly. I'm not sure why you think it would need to be specifically spelled out in a prophecy or vision either.

Let's even say that you're completely correct about the ironic (we can use that as a catchall) usage of sweet. What about Daenerys VI, when the wine merchant attempts to give Dany the poisoned cask? Seven times "sweet" (6-sweet, 1-sweetly) is uttered and none of them are ironic, yet this is the chapter where an assassination attempt is made on Dany. Coincidence? Ironic or otherwise, "sweet" almost seems to warn of trouble for Dany.

Which segues nicely into arguably the key point in this whole debate: sweetness being inherently positive does not mean it is so for Dany. It could be a double-edged sword. Jon 'filling the air with sweetness' – whatever that means – could very well come at Dany's expense. Maybe Jon is meant to usher in a new "spring," but has to defeat Dany's army to do so. So, again, the usage of "sweetness" doesn't even have to be ironic to mean trouble for Dany.

[Ygrain]

I completely disagree with the bolded. The negative connotation would be implied at that point, at least possibly. I'm not sure why you think it would need to be specifically spelled out in a prophecy or vision either.

Then you would have to prove that the context of the hypothetical "hold dear" is somehow related to that stylistically marked "my dear". Stylistical neutrality is default, that's how we use words in their original meaning. A change of meaning, or connotations, has to be marked somehow - either directly, or, if you analyse a piece of literature, it can be done in some obscure way. Mere occurence of the same word (and here a very common one, with a broad variety of uses) is not enough to establish the connection. You would have to find an example where rose scent is presented as negative, regardless if the word sweet is used or not - can you do so?

Let's even say that you're completely correct about the ironic (we can use that as a catchall) usage of sweet. What about Daenerys VI, when the wine merchant attempts to give Dany the poisoned cask? Seven times "sweet" (6-sweet, 1-sweetly) is uttered and none of them are ironic, yet this is the chapter where an assassination attempt is made on Dany. Coincidence? Ironic or otherwise, "sweet" almost seems to warn of trouble for Dany.

Which segues nicely into arguably the key point in this whole debate: sweetness being inherently positive does not mean it is so for Dany. It could be a double-edged sword. Jon 'filling the air with sweetness' – whatever that means – could very well come at Dany's expense. Maybe Jon is meant to usher in a new "spring," but has to defeat Dany's army to do so. So, again, the usage of "sweetness" doesn't even have to be ironic to mean trouble for Dany.

You definitely cannot use ironic as a catchall - I wasn't trying to cover all the possible uses and even so touched on a non-ironic part instantly.

What I'm trying to say is that disregarding context and looking merely at the occurence of "sweet" is like building a case for "blue" while you should be looking at "navy", "azure" and "ultramarine". "Sweet" as a part of GRRM's food and drink code? By all means - sweet taste has been historically used to conceal something else, be it medicine or poison. "Sweet" for deceit in general? Definitely - like sweet taste, sweet words can be a cover for insincerity. However, these do not cover all the uses of "sweet", there is still the normal, stylistically neutral use of "sweet" in the text and even in the Dany chapters ("sweet old bear" mentioned above).

[J. Stargaryen]

Then you would have to prove that the context of the hypothetical "hold dear" is somehow related to that stylistically marked "my dear". Stylistical neutrality is default, that's how we use words in their original meaning. A change of meaning, or connotations, has to be marked somehow - either directly, or, if you analyse a piece of literature, it can be done in some obscure way. Mere occurence of the same word (and here a very common one, with a broad variety of uses) is not enough to establish the connection. You would have to find an example where rose scent is presented as negative, regardless if the word sweet is used or not - can you do so?

You definitely cannot use ironic as a catchall - I wasn't trying to cover all the possible uses and even so touched on a non-ironic part instantly.

What I'm trying to say is that disregarding context and looking merely at the occurence of "sweet" is like building a case for "blue" while you should be looking at "navy", "azure" and "ultramarine". "Sweet" as a part of GRRM's food and drink code? By all means - sweet taste has been historically used to conceal something else, be it medicine or poison. "Sweet" for deceit in general? Definitely - like sweet taste, sweet words can be a cover for insincerity. However, these do not cover all the uses of "sweet", there is still the normal, stylistically neutral use of "sweet" in the text and even in the Dany chapters ("sweet old bear" mentioned above).

The use of "sweetness" in the HotU vision doesn't have to be ironic to mean bad things for Dany. Sure, it would be ironic from her POV if the blue flower, Jon, filled the air with "sweetness" – created peace, for example – by killing Dany. But, otoh, it would have done exactly what it showed Dany it was going to do, symbolically speaking of course.

This would be the same as the repeated use of "sweet" during the wine-assassination attempt chapter. It's not used ironically, yet it still signaled something (potentially) bad for Dany.

As for my catchall suggestion, that was simply a reply to your uncertainty of how to describe Viserys's repeated use of "sweet sister."

(it's not used ironically but it's devoid of the usual emotional attachment - I don't know what to call it, inversion?)

[Ygrain]

The use of "sweetness" in the HotU vision doesn't have to be ironic to mean bad things for Dany. Sure, it would be ironic from her POV if the blue flower, Jon, filled the air with "sweetness" – created peace, for example – by killing Dany. But, otoh, it would have done exactly what it showed Dany it was going to do, symbolically speaking of course.

This would be the same as the repeated use of "sweet" during the wine-assassination attempt chapter. It's not used ironically, yet it still signaled something (potentially) bad for Dany.

As for my catchall suggestion, that was simply a reply to your uncertainty of how to describe Viserys's repeated use of "sweet sister."

We're having a miscommunication here - I certainly never equalled the negative use of "sweet" solely with irony. I pointed out e.g. contexts in which "sweet" is used as a cover-up for deceit (and these are not GRRM-specific, it's general use), and asked whether you can establish any connection between the rose scent in the context suggesting resilience and the contexts for irony/deceit/death/sickness other than the use of "sweet". Can you? I am fairly sure that the answer is "no" but I haven't studied every single occasion.

[J. Stargaryen]

We're having a miscommunication here - I certainly never equalled the negative use of "sweet" solely with irony. I pointed out e.g. contexts in which "sweet" is used as a cover-up for deceit (and these are not GRRM-specific, it's general use), and asked whether you can establish any connection between the rose scent in the context suggesting resilience and the contexts for irony/deceit/death/sickness other than the use of "sweet". Can you? I am fairly sure that the answer is "no" but I haven't studied every single occasion.

I agree about the miscommunication because I'm not sure why you think the case needs to be made in the way you lay it out. Why resiliency? Is MofI&F's interpretation the definitive one? That said, there are a couple of passages you might want to consider.

AGoT, Eddard I:

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was... fond of flowers.”

Here, the smell of roses is accompanied by the smell of blood, and Lyanna is dying of a fever. Now, the fever and blood were both caused by the birth, and the child birthed was Jon Snow, the blue rose. So, there is a link between blue roses, their smell, sickness and death.

There is a direct reference to the smell of winter roses in Ned's final chapter of AGoT, Eddard XV:

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

Not only does the second paragraph tell us that the roses – symbolically Jon, just like in the HotU – come with hidden thorns that are capable of drawing blood, but Ned associates these things, as well as Lyanna's dying request, with her love of the flower's scent.

[Ygrain]

I agree about the miscommunication because I'm not sure why you think the case needs to be made in the way you lay it out. Why resiliency? Is MofI&F's interpretation the definitive one? That said, there are a couple of passages you might want to consider.

AGoT, Eddard I:

Here, the smell of roses is accompanied by the smell of blood, and Lyanna is dying of a fever. Now, the fever and blood were both caused by the birth, and the child birthed was Jon Snow, the blue rose. So, there is a link between blue roses, their smell, sickness and death.

There is a direct reference to the smell of winter roses in Ned's final chapter of AGoT, Eddard XV:

Not only does the second paragraph tell us that the roses – symbolically Jon, just like in the HotU – come with hidden thorns that are capable of drawing blood, but Ned associates these things, as well as Lyanna's dying request, with her love of the flower's scent.

A flower growing in the middle of something inhospitable is a positive sign - plants taking hold up in a wall are generally presented as the victory of life and resilience in a hostile environment.

AGoT, Eddard I:

Here, the smell of roses is accompanied by the smell of blood, and Lyanna is dying of a fever. Now, the fever and blood were both caused by the birth, and the child birthed was Jon Snow, the blue rose. So, there is a link between blue roses, their smell, sickness and death.

I'm afraid I don't follow this reasoning - are you suggesting that Jon is associated with sickness and death, as well?

There is a direct reference to the smell of winter roses in Ned's final chapter of AGoT, Eddard XV:

Not only does the second paragraph tell us that the roses – symbolically Jon, just like in the HotU – come with hidden thorns that are capable of drawing blood, but Ned associates these things, as well as Lyanna's dying request, with her love of the flower's scent.

I cannot help but the way you present it the negativity seems connected with Jon rather than the scent.

[J. Stargaryen]

A flower growing in the middle of something inhospitable is a positive sign - plants taking hold up in a wall are generally presented as the victory of life and resilience in a hostile environment.

I'm afraid I don't follow this reasoning - are you suggesting that Jon is associated with sickness and death, as well?

I cannot help but the way you present it the negativity seems connected with Jon rather than the scent.

1) I asked if the "resiliency" interpretation was definitive. The answer is, it's not. And since it's not, a negative result doesn't tell us anything we don't already know, or at least think; that one of us is mistaken, but which one? If "resiliency" is not the correct interpretation, it's unlikely I would be able to find the kind of connection you suggested. Nor could we find a connection if I am wrong.

2) No, I was only responding to this request from you:

and asked whether you can establish any connection between the rose scent in the context suggesting resilience and the contexts for irony/deceit/death/sickness other than the use of "sweet". Can you? I am fairly sure that the answer is "no" but I haven't studied every single occasion.

So I quoted you a passage which connected several of the elements you suggested. After all, Ned says he smelled the winter roses in the room where Lyanna was dying of a fever.

3) So? Ned thinks of Lyanna's dying wish and recalls that she loved the scent of winter roses. Again, winter roses, their scent and death (dying).