"Sweetness" as a Negative in ASOIAF, The Blue Flower in the Wall of Ice, and Dany's Future

[Newstar]

In this case, it seems sweetness acts almost like Francis Ford Coppola used oranges in the Godfather trilogy.

Yes, exactly. Not to mention peaches seem to be the oranges of ASOIAF, and peaches are extremely sweet as well (...which doesn't bode well for Asha, given her memory of her time with Qarl "devouring peaches and then each other," as Fire Eater, I think it was, pointed out on another thread).

Yeah it was really interesting to me that when we were discussing what a sweet smell might mean for Daenerys vision, some part of my subconscious remembered how sweet smells, or sweet tastes, even sweet words and song, were so dang ubiquitous to terrible things happening/about to happen Daenerys.

It struck me as really distinct from other POVs. As you've got in your post, lots of other characters treat sweetness as a mask or a cover for foulness, but I couldn't find another character who could claim such a strong association with peril and sweetness as Daenerys.

Yes, the sweetness associations with Dany are definitely the strongest (especially the poisoning attempts in AGOT and ADWD).

I guess it's going to be one of those things you interpret based on how you view events in the books. For me, it totally undermines the notion that Jon and Daenerys will fall in love, or be together. It seems to indicate there will be danger, deceit and maybe death as a constant undercurrent to any meeting Daenerys and Jon might have.

It does seem as if one way or another, Jon is going to pose a great danger to Dany. That doesn't rule out them falling in love, however, since often in ASOIAF the purer and more passionate the love, the more of a threat it poses to your safety and security (paging Rhaegar and Lyanna), and boy oh boy is that hammered home with Barristan's musings in ADWD about Dany's love (for Daario) being poison, Dany as a young girl choosing the destructive, all-consuming "fire" in her love life over the nourishing, life-sustaining "mud," rulers following their hearts and choosing love suffering no end of grief as a result, etc. etc.

Dany's love for Daario is not likely to get her killed, but Dany's not going to stop being a "young girl" anytime soon (short of a time jump), and Barristan reflects in ADWD that "young girls would choose the fire"--the destructive, all-consuming type of love--"every time." That could point to Dany potentially making a disastrous, catastrophic choice in the future for love.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The more I read this and look at the collected examples, the more I think we're onto something. Seriously imagine the shippers expecting some sort of love match and then BOOM NOPE.

If nothing else it gives one good ammo against the "but teh blue rose is sweet so that means lurve" arguments the shippers throw out. For which I will always be grateful.

[LordStoneheart]

Seriously imagine the shippers expecting some sort of love match and then BOOM NOPE.

This list actually confirms it more, in my eyes, just not a happy love story that anti-Jon/Dany think pro-Jon/Dany want. My new theory is the cup of ice is Jon's death and the cup of fire is her death and they're each others poison.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Yes, exactly. Not to mention peaches seem to be the oranges of ASOIAF, and peaches are extremely sweet as well (...which doesn't bode well for Asha, given her memory of her time with Qarl "devouring peaches and then each other," as Fire Eater, I think it was, pointed out on another thread).

Yes, the sweetness associations with Dany are definitely the strongest (especially the poisoning attempts in AGOT and ADWD).

It does seem as if one way or another, Jon is going to pose a great danger to Dany. That doesn't rule out them falling in love, however, since often in ASOIAF the purer and more passionate the love, the more of a threat it poses to your safety and security (paging Rhaegar and Lyanna), and boy oh boy is that hammered home with Barristan's musings in ADWD about Dany's love (for Daario) being poison, Dany as a young girl choosing the destructive, all-consuming "fire" in her love life over the nourishing, life-sustaining "mud," rulers following their hearts and choosing love suffering no end of grief as a result, etc. etc.

Dany's love for Daario is not likely to get her killed, but Dany's not going to stop being a "young girl" anytime soon (short of a time jump), and Barristan reflects in ADWD that "young girls would choose the fire"--the destructive, all-consuming type of love--"every time." That could point to Dany potentially making a disastrous, catastrophic choice in the future for love.

Good point, 3 treasons will you know one for gold, one for blood and one for love

[Roadside Rose]

House of the Undying vision....

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . .

Tyrion Lannister, contemplating his soon-bride-to-be Sansa Stark...

"Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces".

The chink in the armor/Wall of ice...

“Courtesy is a lady’s armor,” Sansa said. Her septa had always told her that.

Tyrion reclined on an elbow while Sansa sat staring at her hands. She is just as comely as the Tyrell girl. Her hair was a rich autumn auburn, her eyes a deep Tully blue. Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look; if anything, it had only made her more beautiful. He wanted to reach her, to break through the armor of her courtesy.

He had always had a yen to see the Titan of Braavos. Perhaps that would please Sansa. Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.

Marillion composing a song for Sansa 'the roadside rose'...

“Do you require guarding?” Marillion said lightly. “I am composing a new song, you should know. A song so sweet and sad it will melt even your frozen heart. ‘The Roadside Rose’ I mean to call it. About a baseborn girl so beautiful she bewitched every man who laid eyes upon her.”

Sansa is 'the blue flower growing in the chink in a wall of ice'.

[LordStoneheart]

House of the Undying vision....

Tyrion Lannister, contemplating his soon-bride-to-be Sansa Stark...

The chink in the armor/Wall of ice...

Marillion composing a song for Sansa 'the roadside rose'...

Sansa is 'the blue flower growing in the chink in a wall of ice'.

I get the sweetness and the wall of ice comparison, but there's nothing at all that links her to blue roses other than her being a Stark, and there are other Stark-related characters that are much more clearly linked to that.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Just want to say, nice topic. I do see a lot of what you are talking about, and will keep it in mind when I do my next reread, later this year.

[Roadside Rose]

I get the sweetness and the wall of ice comparison, but there's nothing at all that links her to blue roses other than her being a Stark, and there are other Stark-related characters that are much more clearly linked to that.

She has been likened to a rose by Marillion.

The blue rose is a symbol for the 'most beautiful Stark maiden in Winterfell' in Bael the Bard's story.

When Lyanna was alive it was her...now Lyanna is no more. And so it is Sansa.

GRRM won't make it any more literal than this.

Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy

I also wanted to add that flowers/roses usually symbolize women in literature.

There is Lyanna who is referenced as receiving a crown of blue winter roses from Rhaegar, she also wore blue flowers on her hair.

Then there is the Stark maiden whom Bael the Bard abducted, she was likened to 'the most beautiful flower' that grew in Winterfell's gardens.

Then there is Jenny of Oldstones who wore flowers in her hair. (I believe Jenny parallels Lyanna in a few ways because they both fell in love with a Targaryen prince, both wore flowers in their hair, and had doomed love stories.)

[First of My Name]

I'd like this to be true, and I think it might be. I love how GRRM has planned out this series, with peaces being symbols for death and danger, Arbor gold is lies and deceit, Arbor Red is poison, and now this.

I noticed that these symbols are always things that seem good at first sight - sweetness, peaches, wine. And they always point to something bad, mostly death.

[gibbles545]

Dany considering JOn an antagonist is definetly possible at the minute considering she, at the moment, holds them just as responsible for the Targaryen downfall as the Lannisters and Baratheons.

[Fire Eater]

Yes, exactly. Not to mention peaches seem to be the oranges of ASOIAF, and peaches are extremely sweet as well (...which doesn't bode well for Asha, given her memory of her time with Qarl "devouring peaches and then each other," as Fire Eater, I think it was, pointed out on another thread).

"I've brought you a peach," Ser Jorah said, kneeling. It was so small she could hide it in her palm, and overripe too, but when she took the first bite, the flesh was so sweet she almost cried. She ate it slowly, savoring every mouthful, while Ser Jorah told her of the tree it had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

I think this points to Dany finding her death at the Wall.

[Techelles]

Very interesting topic. The negative connotations of sweet in Daenerys' chapters are pretty hard to ignore, and I fully expect there to be something bitter about the sweetness of that blue flower. But at the risk of being snarkily generalized as an evil "shipper," ( :uhoh: ) I don't think that this list really rules anything out, not even a genuine romantic connection. Remember our last blue flower, Lyanna. Most people in this thread, I think, accept that she and Rhaegar were in love, and the name Rhaegar gave the tower where they spent time together certainly indicates a certain sweetness to their relationship. Yet that sweetness was tainted by the unforeseen consequences of their actions, which resulted in quite a bit of death. The taint is there in spite of the sweetness, not instead of it. There is very easily room for the "sweetness" in Dany's vision to have more than one meaning.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

I still think Jon is 99% likely to be the blue flower growing out of the Wall, but I can at least see where you're coming from.

There is very easily room for the "sweetness" in Dany's vision to have both positive and negative meaning.

I'd be more open to this argument if "sweetness" hadn't already been pretty much a universally negative theme for Dany.

[Techelles]

I'd be more open to this argument if "sweetness" hadn't already been pretty much a universally negative theme for Dany.

Just because the locusts were poisoned doesn't mean they weren't still sweet. Two aspects, one object. Also, I'm just guessing here, but I imagine one could also compile a list of quotes from Dany's arc with mentions of sweet things that do not have sinister undertones. Not that it would make or break any possibilties as to the meaning of the blue flower.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just because the locusts were poisoned doesn't mean they weren't still sweet. Two aspects, one object. Also, I'm just guessing here, but I imagine one could also compile a list of quotes from Dany's arc with mentions of sweet things that do not have sinister undertones. Not that it would make or break any possibilties as to the meaning of the blue flower.

And what good is something sweet if it's poisonous? It's not just "two aspects, one object." It's one deceptive aspect that's hiding a very, very negative aspect. I don't see how there's an "plus" there.

[yolkboy]

This is a really really interesting read, congrats to all who contributed.

Does this mean Grrm's promise of a 'bittersweet' ending might really mean it will be a bitter-unpleasant one? :o

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This is a really really interesting read, congrats to all who contributed.

Does this mean Grrm's promise of a 'bittersweet' ending might really mean it will be a bitter-unpleasant one? :o

I dont think so haha.

He said in an interview that majority of the fans will be happy with the ending.

[Newstar]

"I've brought you a peach," Ser Jorah said, kneeling. It was so small she could hide it in her palm, and overripe too, but when she took the first bite, the flesh was so sweet she almost cried. She ate it slowly, savoring every mouthful, while Ser Jorah told her of the tree it had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

I think this points to Dany finding her death at the Wall.

Good call! The show version of the HOTU vision also could be interpreted to mean that Dany dies at the Wall, since she goes to the Wall in her vision and meets Drogo and Rhaego (who of course are dead).

As for the blue flower vision referencing Sansa, as Roadside Rose suggests, sure, it could be, but the most likely and much simpler explanation is that it references Jon. And of Sansa and Jon, the Targ-blooded king in hiding is the one who's fare more likely to have direct and personal relevance to Dany's arc. If the blue flower referencing Jon seems too obvious to us, it's only because we've been batting around R+L=J for the past 15 years.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

The more I read this and look at the collected examples, the more I think we're onto something. Seriously imagine the shippers expecting some sort of love match and then BOOM NOPE.

If nothing else it gives one good ammo against the "but teh blue rose is sweet so that means lurve" arguments the shippers throw out. For which I will always be grateful.

It would be an interesting twist if Dany and Aegon teamed up against Jon and that was the dance of dragons 2.0. Dany fighting with Aegon and then aligning with Jon to defeat the Others and possibly find romance is such an easy and likely interpretation that it makes me suspicious.

"I've brought you a peach," Ser Jorah said, kneeling. It was so small she could hide it in her palm, and overripe too, but when she took the first bite, the flesh was so sweet she almost cried. She ate it slowly, savoring every mouthful, while Ser Jorah told her of the tree it had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

I think this points to Dany finding her death at the Wall.

Is this at the abandoned city in the Red Waste? If so, the imagery of the dead and abandoned city around them might be foreshadowing. Perhaps Meereen will become a ghost town as well. Or maybe Dany will arrive in Westeros to find the Red Keep destroyed or she will be the one to destroy it.

I don't have anything new to add really. Everyone has done a good job cataloging everything. I do have one thing to pile on in the Littlefinger/Sansa/Sweetrobin arc. It is mentioned somewhere in AFFC how much Sweetrobin loves to eat honeycomb. That's maybe the sweetest food mentioned yet and perhaps a parallel with the honeyed locusts.

[Newstar]

It would be an interesting twist if Dany and Aegon teamed up against Jon and that was the dance of dragons 2.0. Dany fighting with Aegon and then aligning with Jon to defeat the Others and possibly find romance is such an easy and likely interpretation that it makes me suspicious.

Dany vs. Aegon does sound too easy and too convenient, but it ties into a lot of other elements of the books and beyond--greens vs. the blacks, the mummer's dragon, "slayer of lies," etc.--so it's hard to discount. I do agree that Dany vs. Jon would be a neat way of turning everything on its head, since the assumption even from those who don't see any kind of romantic relationship between the two is that they'll be natural allies once Aegon is dealt with. The possibility that they won't, and that Jon will (directly or indirectly) cause Dany's downfall, is much more interesting.

I don't have anything new to add really. Everyone has done a good job cataloging everything. I do have one thing to pile on in the Littlefinger/Sansa/Sweetrobin arc. It is mentioned somewhere in AFFC how much Sweetrobin loves to eat honeycomb. That's maybe the sweetest food mentioned yet and perhaps a parallel with the honeyed locusts.

Right. There's also Sweetrobin's love of lemoncakes (which he may have picked up to some extent from Sansa, who even in her Alayne disguise loves them). It's not really relevant to Dany's arc, since lemons for her are a bit of a touchstone (and lemons in of themselves aren't sweet), but in the context of "sweet = bad," Sansa's love of lemoncakes might also have some negative connotations, though...doubly so if she uses lemoncakes to poison Sweetrobin as some are speculating she will.