Robert Arryn's death does not mean the end of House Arryn

[The Marquis de Leech]

Don't forget Timmet son of Timmet. One of Harry's aunts was carried away by the Burnt Men. If she married Timmet Senior, Timmet Junior is technically heir before Harry.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Very good point! Suspect it depends what one means by 'marry'...and indeed 'carry away'

[Blackfish Tully]

The Arryns of Gulltown are so looked down for their merchant blood on that pretty much anyone, a Royce, a Templeton, whatever, would probably inherit before them.

Then again, it's a very interesting mark of Littlefinger as sign of the times that Lyonel Corbray is now to wed a merchant's daughter with half the Lords Declarant in attendance and no one putting up a fuss. Also, of course, that Anya Waynwood, to settle a few debts, is willing to let her crucially highborn ward marry an apparently bastard born girl.

The Alayne chapters in general are a masterly pastiche of late medieval Europe (Huizinga's 'The Waning of the Middle Ages', Richard II onwards in England), with the burgesses rising and the nobility falling.

It's not only that Littlefinger is paying off Lady Waynwood's debts but he is also is giving her a massive dowry to marry Harry to Sansa. People underestimate how much power Littlefinger gets from being filty rich. A good deal of the nobles are rich in land and titles but not in gold so Littlefinger with his seemingly huge gold reserves will be able to influence a lot of these nobles with bribes and rewards.

[Dornishpenguin]

I also agree that it marks an interesting shift that merchants and those without ancient blood are able to marry into the ranks of Vale nobility as long as they have the money. I was surprised that no one acted upset with the Corbray-merchant girl marriage, and Lady Anya Waynwood seems willing to let Harry marry the bastard daughter of a lesser lord for the gold. I'm curious to see how this will be explored in tWoW- Westeros has been stuck in a static state for centuries, with little advancement or major changes in society. Are these marriages flukes, is the culture of the Vale different, or is something changing in Westeros altogether?

I also wonder if Harry the Heir is really next in line to be in charge of the Vale. Littlefinger's long explanation as to why that was the case left too many loose ends- there were a bunch of daughters, and if a legitimate child from one of the elder girls turned up, their claim would trump Harry's. Harry is the son of the youngest daughter, so there are many opportunities for someone to put forth another candidate (real or fake). I'm personally a fan of the Timmett Arryn theory, but I doubt the Vale lords would flock to him.

[Corvo Attano]

Doesn't Bran - Robert's closest blood relative- come next after Robert?

[Consigliere]

I also wonder if Harry the Heir is really next in line to be in charge of the Vale. Littlefinger's long explanation as to why that was the case left too many loose ends- there were a bunch of daughters, and if a legitimate child from one of the elder girls turned up, their claim would trump Harry's.

Alys Arryn had 8 daughters and 1 son.

- The son died when he was kicked in the head by a horse

- 2 daughters died of the pox (no children)

- The eldest daughter married Ser Denys. According to LF she died of grief when she heard Ser Denys was killed at the Battle of the Bells and the baby died shortly after.

- 1 became a Septa (no children)

- 1 was disowned and joined the silent sisters. Her bastard child died in infancy.

- 1 married the Lord of Paps but was barren

- 1 carried off by the Burned Men.

- The youngest married a landed knight sworn to house Waynwood making her son, Harrold, Robert Arryns heir.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Doesn't Bran - Robert's closest blood relative- come next after Robert?

No, he's only related through the Tully line and has no Arryn heritage (or no recent Arryn heritage anyway)

[Mad Monkey]

Alys Arryn had 8 daughters and 1 son.

- The son died when he was kicked in the head by a horse

- 2 daughters died of the pox (no children)

- The eldest daughter married Ser Denys. According to LF she died of grief when she heard Ser Denys was killed at the Battle of the Bells and the baby died shortly after.

- 1 became a Septa (no children)

- 1 was disowned and joined the silent sisters. Her bastard child died in infancy.

- 1 married the Lord of Paps but was barren

- 1 carried off by the Burned Men.

- The youngest married a landed knight sworn to house Waynwood making her son, Harrold, Robert Arryns heir.

I remember reading this over and over (in the books) and getting dizzy. The Arryn line of succession is basically spaghetti, isn't it? At this point, if Harry the Heir dies you could grab any old bum off the street and everyone will be too dazed and disoriented to question you.

[Dornishpenguin]

Why was it so necessary to have such a long explanation of Harry's origin? I know GRRM has gotten especially wordy in the last couple of books, but if LF's speech was only to explain why Harry is the heir, it was over the top even for him. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot LF didn't know- another one of the daughters may have survived to have another child (or inherit in her own right). Even if the Harry-Sansa marriage goes off smoothly, there may be Lannister loyalists among the Vale lords who do not want to see such an allegiance and plan to install someone else as Lord of the Vale. Most of the world believes that Bran and Rickon are dead- is it so unlikely in Westeros that a surviving male heir can be pulled out of nowhere (even if they are fake, it all depends on what people want to see)?

I think that the only person who has said that the Vale lords will follow Harry is LF himself. We have not actually seen Harry onscreen yet- it could very well be that no one actually wants him to inherit. If Robert Arryn dies soon, his death could easily create a power vacuum in the Vale.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

I thought Petyr's genealogical speech was a ) quite interesting b ) quite authentically late medieval c ) exceedingly funny.

[Blackfish Tully]

Why was it so necessary to have such a long explanation of Harry's origin? I know GRRM has gotten especially wordy in the last couple of books, but if LF's speech was only to explain why Harry is the heir, it was over the top even for him. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot LF didn't know- another one of the daughters may have survived to have another child (or inherit in her own right). Even if the Harry-Sansa marriage goes off smoothly, there may be Lannister loyalists among the Vale lords who do not want to see such an allegiance and plan to install someone else as Lord of the Vale. Most of the world believes that Bran and Rickon are dead- is it so unlikely in Westeros that a surviving male heir can be pulled out of nowhere (even if they are fake, it all depends on what people want to see)?

I think that the only person who has said that the Vale lords will follow Harry is LF himself. We have not actually seen Harry onscreen yet- it could very well be that no one actually wants him to inherit. If Robert Arryn dies soon, his death could easily create a power vacuum in the Vale.

Littlefinger is a master of information and I would doubt very highly that he would be wrong about something as important as who is the next in line to be the Lord of one of the Seven Kingdoms. Also there is probably a whole group of maesters at the citadel who's one purpose is to keep track of all the noble families. Remember the book Ned was reading that detailed all the marriages of noble families where he found that the Braetheon black hair always ran true. Also i doubt that the Vale has any Lannister loyalist and Harry is said to be handsome and brave so it would be easy for the Vale lords to get behind him.

[Blackfish Tully]

I thought Petyr's genealogical speech was a ) quite interesting b ) quite authentically late medieval c ) exceedingly funny.

I agree , I loved the speech and i am always for more information in ASOIAF not less.

[Valandui]

I also agree that it marks an interesting shift that merchants and those without ancient blood are able to marry into the ranks of Vale nobility as long as they have the money. I was surprised that no one acted upset with the Corbray-merchant girl marriage, and Lady Anya Waynwood seems willing to let Harry marry the bastard daughter of a lesser lord for the gold. I'm curious to see how this will be explored in tWoW- Westeros has been stuck in a static state for centuries, with little advancement or major changes in society. Are these marriages flukes, is the culture of the Vale different, or is something changing in Westeros altogether?

I also wonder if Harry the Heir is really next in line to be in charge of the Vale. Littlefinger's long explanation as to why that was the case left too many loose ends- there were a bunch of daughters, and if a legitimate child from one of the elder girls turned up, their claim would trump Harry's. Harry is the son of the youngest daughter, so there are many opportunities for someone to put forth another candidate (real or fake). I'm personally a fan of the Timmett Arryn theory, but I doubt the Vale lords would flock to him.

I believe it's probably true. I imagine that it was why Denys Arryn was accepted as the heir in the first place and there was so much pressure on Jon to have a child. House Arryn appears to be in very dire straights from an inheritance standpoint.

[TheWizard]

Obviously it doesn't mean the death of the house. It was said that if Robert dies Harry will take the Arryn name. He might have done it already considering some people call him the "young Falcon"

[Pod The Impaler]

The Arryns of Gulltown are so looked down for their merchant blood on that pretty much anyone, a Royce, a Templeton, whatever, would probably inherit before them.

Then again, it's a very interesting mark of Littlefinger as sign of the times that Lyonel Corbray is now to wed a merchant's daughter with half the Lords Declarant in attendance and no one putting up a fuss. Also, of course, that Anya Waynwood, to settle a few debts, is willing to let her crucially highborn ward marry an apparently bastard born girl.

The Alayne chapters in general are a masterly pastiche of late medieval Europe (Huizinga's 'The Waning of the Middle Ages', Richard II onwards in England), with the burgesses rising and the nobility falling.

Harry Hardyng may be the named heir now, but I don't think Littlefinger would just leave it at that. He's too ambitious (and wants to bed Sansa himself anyway). The real question is not whether Robert Arryn's death means the end of the house, but rather where would it go if Harry the Heir died. Sweetrobin's death means only that the standard for Arryn blood-purity becomes so thin it's nearly meaningless.

I still have this weird theory in my head that Littlefinger's ancestry (which we know little about) is partly Gulltown Arryn. They are considered "uncouth", and more merchants than lords ? Herry's Arryn blood is aready pretty thin - a grand-nephew of Jon Arryn, born through a mixture of female Waynwood and male Hardyng blood. Maybe the cadet branch of Arryns has no more main branch Arryn blood than any other Vale house, but the name Arryn is more powerful than the name Hardyng.

LF seems quite like the Gulltown Arryn's sort of person, just better mannered. As well, the very fact that are not spoken of because of their merchant origins seems to parallel his gambit with Alayne Stone - that it is rude or uncouth to pry into the origins of one's natural children. LF knows how this game works very well, so I cannot imagine he'd leave a big gap where the last people of the Arryn name are involved. Especially not if they have influence in Gulltown, the most important city in the Vale. Baelish states he is well lived in Gulltown, and that Lord Grafton is known as a friend.

Yes, Littlefinger's great-grandfather was a sellsword, his grandfather a hedge knight, and his father a petty lord. Well, what of his mother or grandmother ? If they were of the Gulltown Arryn's, then Littlefinger's gambit with Harry starts to make more sense. It's basically a bait-and-switch, allowing for Harry's removal, after he eliminates Sweetrobin, and he is crucially not seen by the Lords Declarant as grasping the lordship from a dying child. He would have as much right to carry on the "Arryn" name as Harry the Heir ever did, but is someone far more powerful (and also suitable to be wed to a certain red-haired Stark, heh).

Don't forget Timmet son of Timmet. One of Harry's aunts was carried away by the Burnt Men. If she married Timmet Senior, Timmet Junior is technically heir before Harry.

A wildling wedding customer, stealing a bride - har !

This might make an excellent wrench to throw into Lord Baelish's works.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

The above is preeeeetty convincing, well done!

[Lord Rupert Connington]

I've noticed that in many threads where people discuss Houses that are near extinction, they mention House Arryn, due to Robert's sickly health, and the fact that Littlefinger is probably poisoning him using dreamwine. However, didn't LF mention to Sansa that House Arryn has lesser branches in the Vale. If Robert died, then logically the head of oldest branch would become the new Lord of the Vale and the Eyrie, and begin the main Arryn line again. Are members of lesser branches of noble Houses included in its line of succession, or is LF really going to become Lord of the Eyrie? Since Daven Lannister became Warden of the West, I suppose a lesser Arryn cousin could become the new head of the main Arryn line, right?

As Petyr said,

There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns.

There are quite a few Arryns in the Vale, but Harry has a better claim to the lordship. So I agree, yes, House Arryn will not become extinct with the death of Sweetrobin, or Harry for that matter, but the succession will become almost impossible to determine.

[Luddagain]

That perra Royce is a real issue.

I am 95% certain that SHE is the youngest daughter of Jocelyn Stark-Royce. She is the right age

[thelittledragonthatcould]

That perra Royce is a real issue.

I am 95% certain that SHE is the youngest daughter of Jocelyn Stark-Royce. She is the right age

I'm not sure that she is. Stevron Frey was born in 233 so Perra Royce would have been been born in at least 219.

Edwyle's son was born in 230 so I imagine that his sisters children would have been born around the same time, the youngest certainly. As both Jocelyn and Edwyle were from Willem Starks second wife we can reasonably guess that they are were born around 5 or so years of each other.

And while I know that the Freys are not a prestigious old House I can see the heir to the Crossing doing better than a 3rd daughter of the (at the time) landless lesser branch of House Royce.