Heresy 71

[Black Crow]

Does anyone recall which thread you discussed sin eaters? It sounds very interesting.

As Philip Frye says, it was a while back and although the speed this thread moves at makes for lively conversation, it does make it very difficult to recall when something was discussed.

Philip's description of a sin-eater is a good summary from an historical point of view, and so far as Craster is concerned is entirely consistent with his condition and explains why the rest of the Wildlings, who aren't stupid, know that he bears that "heavy curse" and what he's doing, yet don't come knocking with pitchforks, scythes and burning torches.

[Harlan]

I generally think the simplest explanation of Sam's statement is that he means that the baby will be seen as craster's grandson (gilly's son) while actually being mance's son. It's still a weird statement but...

[Black Crow]

On balance, much as I like the idea of Dalla being Craster's daughter I'd tend to agree.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

On balance, much as I like the idea of Dalla being Mance's daughter I'd tend to agree.

I think (hope?) you mean Craster's daughter ;)...

[Black Crow]

oops.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Sorry. It is somewhere back in the mists of Heresy . . .

Basically, a sin-eater existed in England, Scotland, and Wales in the Middle Ages until the late 1800's. The person would eat bread and drink ale in the house of the deceased, taking the decedent's sins upon himself. Usually, the sin-eater was from a low social stratum and was often reviled within the community as a sinful person (remember that the sin-eater has assumed the decedent's sins). The sin-eater was viewed as basically a parasite and beggar (but a necessary one) because of local superstitions that a deceased person could not walk into the afterlife until he was absolved of his sins.

Thank you :) Thats similar to relatives putting coins on the deceased's eyes or in the pocket to pay the ferryman (Charon) to take their soul to the other side.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, basically in this case Craster is paying the Tithe to Hell on behalf of the other Wildlings, fathering his sons on his daughters because nobody else will have him, generally being despised and reviled by all around him and finding his sole consolation in the knowledge that he and his are square with the gods and that he does what he does because he is a godly man.

[Black Crow]

Mance's own explanation for his cloak makes plenty of sense to me.

From a practical point of view I don't think that it does. Mending a heavy woollen cloak with silk makes no sense at all - line it with silk, yes, but not repair rents in the fabric.

By wearing a black cloak streaked with red Mance is displaying his true (Blackfyre) colours and the simplest explanation is that while he was laid up with the woods witch's daughter, he learned who he really was.

[Toccs]

From a practical point of view I don't think that it does. Mending a heavy woollen cloak with silk makes no sense at all - line it with silk, yes, but not repair rents in the fabric.

By wearing a black cloak streaked with red Mance is displaying his true (Blackfyre) colours and the simplest explanation is that while he was laid up with the woods witch's daughter, he learned who he really was.

I've never been able to buy into this one. Sure the timing and the colours match up but Mance being a Blackfyre seems unnecessary from a story telling point of view and illogical from an in universe perspective..

Why would the hypothetical Blackfyre loyalists trying to smuggle away the last heir choose to send him Beyond the Wall, a place not only barbaric and savage but is located about as far behind enemy lines as you can possibly get? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to flee to any number of the Free Cities, which are not only more civilized and outside of Targaryen influence but in some, such as Volantis and Lys the Valyrian heritage may even find them welcome?

[Urrax]

http://asoiaf.wester...78-winter-fell/

Thanks.

[Black Crow]

I've never been able to buy into this one. Sure the timing and the colours match up but Mance being a Blackfyre seems unnecessary from a story telling point of view and illogical from an in universe perspective..

Why would the hypothetical Blackfyre loyalists trying to smuggle away the last heir choose to send him Beyond the Wall, a place not only barbaric and savage but is located about as far behind enemy lines as you can possibly get? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to flee to any number of the Free Cities, which are not only more civilized and outside of Targaryen influence but in some, such as Volantis and Lys the Valyrian heritage may even find them welcome?

For precisely that reason.

Viserys and Danaerys fled to Essos and much good it did them. Hiding the last Blackfyre beyond the Wall is safe because unlike Essos its the last place anybody is going to look.

Making Mance for a Blackfyre gives him the motive we've been looking for to explain what he's really up to.

[7V3N]

Thanks for the quote GoldenVale.

It seems to be outright stating that Craster is Mance's father.

Or Mance is the father and Craster is the grandfather because Gilly is raising the babe.

I've always thought it was a typo. But it could also represent how the baby is known as Craster's son/grandson, but also is actually Mance's son. It really has me puzzled enough that I really think it was a mistake by GRRM.

[JonNonRegis]

By wearing a black cloak streaked with red Mance is displaying his tre (Blackfyre) colours and the simplest explanation is that while he was laid up with the woods witch's daughter, he learned who he really was.

I'm trying to imagine Mance being so irrational as to believe it, if a village healer told him "You are secretly the last Blackfyre! You were moved thousands of miles north and hidden beyond the Wall because it's the last place anybody would look."

I can't do it. Whatever his failings, Mance is a clear thinker.

The above scenario is also remarkably similar to another routinely mocked in this forum -- that of Howland Reed waving around a parchment (invariably said in the mocking to be "mouldy") and proclaiming Jon Snow to be secretly the heir to Rhaegar Targaryen.

[Black Crow]

Guilty as charged, but unlike Jon Snow, Mance is up to something and it all stems from that meeting with the woods witch's daughter.

[LynnS]

What if Mance wasn't looking for the Horn of Joramund but an obsidian blade about three feet long and thin and sharp as a sword that shines with it's own light and the bones, the dragonhorn were all found in the same grave?

It seems that Melisandre's version of Lightbringer has changed in DwD. When she sacrifices Rattelbones glamored as Mance and hides Mance from everyone including Stannis; Jon gets a look at Lightbringer v2.0.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon has seen the show gbefore ... but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied and one threw it's rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice.

This description seems remarkably like a glass candle. Could this give Mance some leverage and bargaining power with Melisandre. This seems to be the point where she abandons Stannis and takes a keener interest in Jon Snow. She even tells him "that he knows nothing" and appears to him later in the guise of a grey cloaked woman very similar to the way Quaithe appears to Dany when she uses a glass candle. So are these the artifacts of the Night's King or the Last Hero?

[JonNonRegis]

Guilty as charged, but unlike Jon Snow, Mance is up to something and it all stems from that meeting with the woods witch's daughter.

Well, we are in lockstep that he is up to something. (Actually, I think he may be up to multiple things...)

What if Mance wasn't looking for the Horn of Joramund but an obsidian blade about three feet long and thin and sharp as a sword that shines with its own light...

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon has seen the show gbefore ... but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied and one threw it's rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice.

This description seems remarkably like a glass candle.

This possibility never even occurred to me! Interesting stuff and it does logically tie together certain ideas:

1. Obsidian kills Popsicles (cf. Sam the Slayer)

2. Obsidian can be made to glow (cf. Marwyn the Mage)

I have a completely different notion of Lightbringer, but if it's wrong, then I like this notion quite a bit.

[King of Winters]

This possibility never even occurred to me! Interesting stuff and it does logically tie together certain ideas:

1. Obsidian kills Popsicles (cf. Sam the Slayer)

2. Obsidian can be made to glow (cf. Marwyn the Mage)

I have a completely different notion of Lightbringer, but if it's wrong, then I like this notion quite a bit.

It would have to be a strong piece of Obsidian since it's brittle.

[LynnS]

It would have to be a strong piece of Obsidian since it's brittle.

I have a different idea of Lightbringer as well. According to the Jade Compendium; it burns with heat and this "sword" does not. But it does seem like a glass candle and something that Melisandre can use both in place of the "burning" swords she normally uses and for abilities it gives her. I don't think she believes that it's Lightbringer. It's only important that others believe it, especially the Wildlings who are witness to Mance's death. I'm more interested in what Mance told her in private and why they colluded together.

Edit: It's always possible that the sword AA used was Valyrian steel and the "last hero" used something else.

[Harlan]

(1) I've never been able to buy into this one. Sure the timing and the colours match up but Mance being a Blackfyre seems unnecessary from a story telling point of view and illogical from an in universe perspective..

(2) Why would the hypothetical Blackfyre loyalists trying to smuggle away the last heir choose to send him Beyond the Wall, a place not only barbaric and savage but is located about as far behind enemy lines as you can possibly get? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to flee to any number of the Free Cities, which are not only more civilized and outside of Targaryen influence but in some, such as Volantis and Lys the Valyrian heritage may even find them welcome?

(1) I'm not sold on this either, but mance being a blackfyre does fit. It would help explain why GRRM has talked about the blackfyres so much, and would make the history which has been worked into ASoIaF more relevant.

(2) What if Mance was never sent beyond the wall. What if he was sent to the wall and the story about him being found with wildlings was just a cover story.

[JonNonRegis]

True. It would be a Popsicles-only weapon, completely ineffective against wights, men, etc.