Heresy 71

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 71, this week’s edition of the fast moving and often eclectic thread which takes a closer look at the Song of Ice and Fire, the secret conflict underlying the all-too public Game of Thrones.

Its called heresy because here we challenge the orthodoxy that the Song of Ice and Fire is simply about defeating the Others and that the Children of the Forest are the good guys who will teach Bran how to do it as they did in days of yore.

Some of us suspect otherwise, for there is no evidence in the books that the Children and the First Men were allies and nor is there any reason to expect that they should be. On the contrary the Pact saw them surrender their lands, all but the deep woods, and it saw them surrender their weapons, 100 pieces of dragonglass every year. And in the end Men still broke the Pact; burning the weirwoods, slaughtering the children and driving the survivors beyond the Wall to face extinction.

Instead, it may be the weirwood faces of the white walkers in the HBO show point to a connection with the Old Gods already admitted but not yet explained by GRRM. In short the Children of the Forest may not be the cuddly tree-huggers they pretend and that as a greenseer Bran has been first groomed and then secured by them not to save Westeros but to provide them with a window into the realms of men, for the Old Powers are awakening, the trees have eyes again and Gendel’s children are hungry.

And then there’s the Wall itself, which may not be a defensive structure but is the magical hinge or boundary between the Realms of Men and the Otherlands beyond. It was raised and maintained by great and dark magic, and is more than likely the cause of the Long Night. Moreover it may originally have been built by the children not to protect Westeros to create a bastion, cleared of men by the white walkers where they could take refuge when men broke the Pact. It is, according to Ygritte, made of blood. Perhaps then the Wall must come down to achieve a resolution of the conflict and restore the balance of the seasons and everything else, for to quote Janet Clouston: “Blood built it, Blood stopped the building of it, and Blood will bring it down”

This is the Song of Ice and Fire; and the Others and the rest of the Old Powers together represent only one side of a conflict that has been waged since time began.

In resolving it, Jon Snow may indeed be destined to bridle the Ice, but as King of Winter rather than as AzorAhai, while Danaerys Targaryen, may have to “go back” – to where the Targaryens and their dragons came from - into the smoke and salt of the Smoking Sea of Valyria in order to sort out the Fire.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, and recent discussion has looked closely at the bonding process between direwolves and wargs, dragons and dragonlords, and the true nature of the white walkers, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun.

We’ve long since given up providing links to previous heresies since it moves so damn quickly, but in honour of the occasion Heresy 50 contained a series of essays looking at a number of topics in more detail, including creatures of ice and creatures of fire.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84200-heresy-50/

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if you’re new to the game and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[alienarea]

A quick question before it evolves elsewhere:

Do we have any indication on the number of the CotF when the First Men arrived?

I just wondered if the one hundred dragonglass daggers tell us something about the number of CotF and we were wrong in connecting them to the one hundred kingdoms?

[Mace Cooterian]

@Black Crow – just finished a re-read of the series and came across an interesting nugget that I believe confirms your prognostication that Dany will eventually sort out the Fire situation in Valyria; or at the very least a pit stop for her on her way back West (notice how I didn’t say Westeros…who the hell knows).

ADWD…Tyrion has just been captured by Jeor in Selhorys and they are found in Volantis trying to find a ship sailing to Slaver’s Bay. During an exchange between Tyrion and “Vogarro’s whore”:

“I am no lady” the widow replied. “You want to be gone from here before the tigers come. Should you reach your queen, give her a message from the slaves of Old Volantis”. She touched the faded scar upon her wrinkled cheek, where her tears had been cut away. “Tell her we are waiting. Tell her to come soon”.

Regarding the re-read; I found it quite enjoyable the second time through, especially in AFFC and ADWD. Believe it or not; I actually didn’t mind going back through Slaver’s Bay; it was much better the second time around. Side note; still can‘t figure out the nonsense with Brianne’s story arc; seems like filler to me. Also, I’ve chosen the side of the fence that believes Aegon is not a (f)ake. Not trying to start a debate with anyone; it just seemed that ‘Hugor Hill’ believed it and that’s good enough for me.

As for me I am turning my attention towards Bernard Cornwell’s Arthur trilogy. I also have my pre-registered copy of Dangerous Woman (The Prince and the Queen) expected at my door step on December 3^rd; although I’m not holding my breath!!!

[LynnS]

Side note; still can‘t figure out the nonsense with Brianne’s story arc; seems like filler to me.

To me Brienne is something like a Sir Galahad searching for the grail. But my own theory about Brienne is that she is carrying the 'unfinished' Sword of Light; Oathkeeper given to her by Jaime. Ned Stark's sword "Ice" broken and reforged twice (two swords). One sword Lord Tywin gives to Joffrey and the other meant for Jaime a more robust 'bastard' sword. If the prescription for the alchemy of the sword is followed as described by the legend; it must pierce the heart of a lion and Nissa Nissa; whomever she turns out to be. I'm thinking Melisandre given Brienne's vows to revenge Renly's death.

From a Storm of Swords:

As he entered his lord father’s solar a few moments later, he heard a voice saying “….cherry wood for the scabbards, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion’s head studs in pure gold. Perhaps with garnets for the eyes…”

“Rubies,” Lord Tywin said. “Garnets lack the fire.”

Tyrion cleared his throat. “My lord. You sent for me.”

His father glanced up. “I did. Come have a look at this.”

A bundle of oilcloth lay on the table between them, and Lord Tywin had a longsword in his hand. “A wedding gift for Joffrey,” he told Tyrion. The lights streaming through the diamond-shaped panes of glass made the blade shimmer black and red as Lord Tywin turned it to inspect the edge, while the pommel and cross guard flamed gold. “With this fools jabber of Stannis and his magic sword, it seemed to me that we had best give Joffrey something extraordinary as well. A king should bear a kingly weapon.”

“That’s much too much sword for Joff,” Tyrion said.

“He will grow into it. Here, feel the weight of it.” He offered the weapon hilt first.

The sword was much lighter than he had expected. As he turned it in his hand, he saw why. Only one metal could be beaten so thin and still have enough strength to fight with, and there was no mistaking those ripples, the mark of steel that had been folded back on itself many thousands of times. “Valyrian steel?”

“Yes”, Lord Tywin said in a tone of deep satisfaction.

At long last, Father? Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the seven kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none belonged to House Lannister. The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the great sword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on a fool’s quest. He had never returned, nor had Uncle Gery, the youngest and most reckless of his father’s brothers, who had gone seeking after the lost sword some eight years later.

Thrice at least Lord Tywin had offered to buy Valyrian longswords from impoverished lesser houses, but his advances had always been rebuffed. The little lordlings would gladly part with their daughters should a Lannister come asking, but they cherished their old family swords. Tyrion wondered where the metal for this one had come from. A few master armorers could rework old Valyrian steel, but the secrets of its making had been lost when the Doom came to old Valyria. “The colors are strange,” he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distance, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. “How did you get this patterning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

“Nor I, my lord,” said the armorer. “I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. The old swords remember, it is said, and the do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. If my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but--”

“No need,” Lord Tywin said. “This will serve.”

“A crimson sword might flash prettily in the sun, but if truth be told I like these colors better,” said Tyrion. “They have an ominous beauty … and they make this blade unique. There is no other sword like it in all the world, I should think.”

“There is one.” The armor ere bent over the table and unfolded the bundle of oilcloth, to reveal a second longsword.

Tyrion put down Joffrey’s sword and took up the other. If not twins, the two were at least close cousins. This one was thicker and heavier, a half-inch wider and three inches longer, but they shared the same fine clean lines and the same distinctive color, the ripples of blood and night. Three fullers, deeply incised, rand down the second blade from hilt to point, the king’s sword had only two. Joff’s hilt was a good deal more ornate, the arms of its cross guard done as lion’s paws with ruby claws unsheathed, but both swords had grips of finely tooled red leather and gold lions’ heads for pommels.

“Magnificent.” Even in hands as unskilled as Tyrion’s, the blade felt alive.

In a Feast for Crows, Brienne reflects on the sword.

But she had another longsword hidden in her bedroll. She sat on the bed and took it out. Gold glimmered yellow in the candlelight and rubies smoldered red. When she slid Oathkeeper from the ornate scabbard., Brienne’s breath caught in her throat. Black and red the ripples ran deep within the steel . Valyrian steel, spell-forged. It was a sword fit for a hero.

And most tellingly in my opinion Jaime's Dream in Storm of Swords:

Naked and alone he stood surrounded by enemies with stone walls all around him pressing close. The Rock he knew. He could feel the immense weight of it above his head . He was home. He was home and whole.

He held his right hand up and flexed his fingers to feel the strength in them. It felt as good as sex. As good as swordplay. Four fingers and a thumb. He had dreamed that he was maimed, but it wasn’t so. Relief made him dizzy. My hand, my good hand. Nothing could hurt him so long as he was whole.

Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. “Who are you?” he demanded of them. “What business do you have in Casterly Rock?”

They gave no answers, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt but the spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword nothing could harm me.

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spear point jabbed at the small of his back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?”

“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin, his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

“Sister, why has father brought us here?”

“Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.” Her torch was the only light in the cavern, the only light in the world. She turned to go.

“Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.“ But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword at least.”

“I gave you a sword.” Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me now so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword, a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept along the edge, stopping a hands breadth from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself, so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps…

From behind came a great splash… but the feint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth… her hands bound in heavy chains. “I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.” Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. “Ser. Please. If you would be so good.”

The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. In this light, she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

“The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”

“Sister!” He shouted. “Stary with me. Stay!” there was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.

Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the flat black water. She was as tall and strong as he remembered , yet it seemed to Jaime that she had more of a woman’s shape now. …

… The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. The his sword went dark and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

Consider that Stoneheart has Brienne bring Jaime back to her and there are two rumors of Arya's whereabouts: one at the Wall and one at the Saltpans last seen with the Hound.

[Urrax]

To me Brienne is something like a Sir Galahad searching for the grail. But my own theory about Brienne is that she is carrying the 'unfinished' Sword of Light; Oathkeeper given to her by Jaime. Ned Stark's sword "Ice" broken and reforged twice (two swords). One sword Lord Tywin gives to Joffrey and the other meant for Jaime a more robust 'bastard' sword. If the prescription for the alchemy of the sword is followed as described by the legend; it must pierce the heart of a lion and Nissa Nissa; whomever she turns out to be. I'm thinking Melisandre given Brienne's vows to revenge Renly's death....

Interesting. And the lion will be a Lannister?

[LynnS]

Interesting. And the lion will be a Lannister?

That's how I read it. "Give me a good clean death, any day." Says Jaime of Bran's condition at Winterfell. Jaime is going back to Stoneheart to be judged on keeping his oath I presume. Stoneheart is one for hanging first and listening later. When Brienne chose the "sword" hanging by the noose; I think the choice was trial by battle and she won. Since Beric gave Stoneheart the kiss of life and died the true death; Thoros may have been Stoneheart's champion. The question is will it go down this way for Jaime and will Brienne be his champion?

The alchemy of creating the sword seems to be infusing it with four types of magic: fire, ice, light and dark with blood sacrifice of some kind.. LIke everything else about the legends; they seem to be 'flexible'. Ned a hereditary king of the north has powerful blood. A blood sacrifice was given. The blade was broken and reforged twice into two different swords. One more powerful than the other both are spell forged and one seems to defy the smith in it's making. "Ice" may already contain ice magic. Three more are required: fire and dark shadow and light. Jaime may empower the qualities of "light". In Bran's first dream of the three eyed crow he sees "the golden man"; he is quickly pulled away from that vision by the crow. In spite of their animosity; Jaime and Brienne seem to be coming closer together in mutual respect. She may "love" him at some point as she would a brother. She may have to give him the gift of mercy.

[LynnS]

I'm curious about this passage in Clash of Kings:

Clash of Kings Chapter 63 Danaerys:

Dany had laughed when he told her. “Was it not you who told me warlocks were no more than old soldiers, vainly boasting of forgotten deeds and lost powers?”

Xaro looked troubled. “And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock’s Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. The wife of Mathos Malarawan, who once mocked a warlock’s drab moth eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as tough a thousand insects were crawling on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder.” He sighed. “These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. …”

The name Urrathon Night-Walker is strange. It seems to be a conflation of Greyjoy names: Urragon Good-Brother, Urrigon Greyjoy, Theon Greyjoy and Urri sounds like Euron as Aeron points out when considering the Kingsmoot and the story of Urragon Good-Brother who turned out to be the bad brother.

If Qyburn is the bad guy, I think he is; does substituting Qyburn for Urrathon give the passage and portents some meaning? If the glass candles came from Valyria; does the meaning of tortoises carrying messages between windowless houses mean that Urrathon is in contact with someone in Volantis, Dany's enemies. The tortoises are reminiscent of the giant turtles on the Sorrows. A sorrowful man is sent to assassinate Dany.

A wife of Mathos is afflicted after making fun of a wizard dressed in tattered clothing. Cersei describes Qyburn as a kindly grandfather dressed shabbily tattered clothing. Mathos Malarawan a pointer to Marwyn the Mage?

Is Blind Sebastion the Eater of Eyes a pointer to Symeon Star Eyes; The rats who eats their tails a pointer to the Rat King stories and all the dark songs sung at Ramsey Bolton's wedding.

Xaro used to think that magic was only a tail told by old soldiers. This seems to connect with Baelish's paternity. If you look at Baelish's mockingbird house sigil as a a puzzle like Euron's what does it say that there are 11 mockingbirds. If you substitute the mockingbirds for empty boxes; do you have a unknown family tree with one patriarch at the top. Could this be representative of the 10 towers of Old Wyk. There is no information about Balon Greyjoy's paternity.

Any thoughts?

Edit: What happened 100 years ago the last time the candles were burning? Is Qyburn Crastor's father? Did he "fly down from the wall" and spend time in the North among the wildlings and skinchangers?

[alienarea]

That's how I read it. "Give me a good clean death, any day." Says Jaime of Bran's condition at Winterfell. Jaime is going back to Stoneheart to be judged on keeping his oath I presume. Stoneheart is one for hanging first and listening later. When Brienne chose the "sword" hanging by the noose; I think the choice was trial by battle and she won. Since Beric gave Stoneheart the kiss of life and died the true death; Thoros may have been Stoneheart's champion. The question is will it go down this way for Jaime and will Brienne be his champion?

The alchemy of creating the sword seems to be infusing it with four types of magic: fire, ice, light and dark with blood sacrifice of some kind.. LIke everything else about the legends; they seem to be 'flexible'. Ned a hereditary king of the north has powerful blood. A blood sacrifice was given. The blade was broken and reforged twice into two different swords. One more powerful than the other both are spell forged and one seems to defy the smith in it's making. "Ice" may already contain ice magic. Three more are required: fire and dark shadow and light. Jaime may empower the qualities of "light". In Bran's first dream of the three eyed crow he sees "the golden man"; he is quickly pulled away from that vision by the crow. In spite of their animosity; Jaime and Brienne seem to be coming closer together in mutual respect. She may "love" him at some point as she would a brother. She may have to give him the gift of mercy.

That would give some purpose to Btienne, but can't be done in two books with all the Other ;-) stuff going on.

Also, if Jaime is killed now it is kind of lame, why not back in AGoT after Ned had been executed. And, from a game mechanics point of view Jaime needs to meet Bran IMHO.

Finally, if Brienne kills Jaime and Melisandre, does she become Azor Ahai?

[Amoracchius]

When Brienne chose the "sword" hanging by the noose; I think the choice was trial by battle and she won.

The idea of a trial by battle is interesting, but not what I got out of that scene. Brienne had already been given the choice of hanging or killing Jaime, so I figured that shouting, "Sword!" meant that she was agreeing to kill him, rather than let the Brotherhood hang she and Podrick.

[LynnS]

That would give some purpose to Btienne, but can't be done in two books with all the Other ;-) stuff going on.

Also, if Jaime is killed now it is kind of lame, why not back in AGoT after Ned had been executed. And, from a game mechanics point of view Jaime needs to meet Bran IMHO.

Finally, if Brienne kills Jaime and Melisandre, does she become Azor Ahai?

I don't think Jaime will be killed now. Jaime and Brienne have a lot of questing to do. LOL! There is another prophecy somewhere that escapes me now of the Hound, the golden man and a stone giant. But the story is not told yet; so your guess is as good as mine. Can't speculate on who is or will be Azor Ahai. Just don't know. Brienne could turn out to be the "last hero" in some way or she could deliver the sword to Jon if he is meant to have it.

[LynnS]

The idea of a trial by battle is interesting, but not what I got out of that scene. Brienne had already been given the choice of hanging or killing Jaime, so I figured that shouting, "Sword!" meant that she was agreeing to kill him, rather than let the Brotherhood hang she and Podrick.

I thought she was hanging before she could answer and managed to choke it out while she was swinging..

[brut]

Uhmmm, ahem, how does all this relate to Heresy?

[Amoracchius]

I thought she was hanging before she could answer and managed to choke it out while she was swinging..

She was, but that was after she was told to kill Jaime and she refused, insisting that he had truly changed, so they began hanging Pod and her. Then she saw Podrick losing consciousness and shouted "Sword!"

Also, if she had been granted a trial by combat and won, why does she pursue Jaime in ADWD? Why wouldn't she be free to go like Sandor was after he won his trial by combat? If she were acting freely, I'd imagine her reunion with Jaime would be more along the lines of "Holy crap, there's a band of outlaws who want you dead!" Instead, she tells a tall tale she tells about Sandor and Sansa before separating him from all the men protecting him.

Uhmmm, ahem, how does all this relate to Heresy?

Good question.

[alienarea]

Uhmmm, ahem, how does all this relate to Heresy?

It's my fault. Whenever I post a heresy related question I get ignored and the discussion moves elsewhere.

:dunno:

[LynnS]

It's my fault. Whenever I post a heresy related question I get ignored and the discussion moves elsewhere.

:dunno:

My fault too. Sorry. Speculation.

However, as to Heresy and magic beyond the walls, the Others, white walkers etc. I think Qyburn and history is relevant. He has created something in Robert Strong that involved, greyscale and shadowbinding wth a living person (albiet dying in this case). Why does Val have such a strong reaction to Shereen and any child so afflicted considered dead already? Is this Qyburn's doing? His first experiment?

If the white walkers are a form of life; could this indicate a kind of ice binding and shadow binding with a human? Did he have something to do with creating them? Are the "sons of Crastor" turned over to Skagos? Is this the meaning of the white walker in antlers? Even Roose Bolton doesn't want to contemplate what goes on there.

Why is there so much dark imagery around Roose and Ramsey Bolton relating to the Night Fort, Rat King and Night's King?Why does Roose send the Miller's Wife (Ramsey's mother) a bag of stars (star saphires?) every year. Did she lose her eyes? Is Gregore Clegane one of Qyburn's "sons"? Perhaps these questions can't be answered at this point and that's fine. Food for thought.

(The anagram for Sandor the hound Clegane is: tougher, clean handed son.)

Edit: Do the white walker breathe out ice shadows that affect the dead in the same way that Robert Strong (the beast) might breathe out shadow flame that infects the living with greyscale? Can white walkers shadow bind wights in the same manner that Qyburn appears to bind Robert Strong to himself?

[Mother Other]

Apologies, I posted in 70 as it was closing. Reposting here.

Hello Heretics :-) After finding these boards several months ago, I have become enthralled with this lovely "fly by the seat of your pants" thread. It has taken me at least 3 months to read through them all, you certainly waste no time. I have completely enjoyed the fresh perspectives being hashed out here. Kudos to you all for having a thread where nothing is off limits and everything is questioned. It has certainly kept me entertained almost as much as the books themselves.

GoldenVale, on 09 September 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

I assume you mean how they seemingly know when something bad is going to happen?

I don't think they can see the future. I just think as animals they are instinctively aware of slight changes and signals in their environment that signal danger.

In real life there have been many cases of animals exhibiting such signs prior to events like natural disasters, and it's theorized and reasoned that this is because they are instinctively more aware of things than people are.

That's what I think GRRM is doing here albeit slightly exaggerated for story purposes. I doubt the direwolves can see the future.}

Just to share my initial response, I saw this as the human expression of the direwolves. Part of the wolf is in the warg and part of the warg is in the wolf always, even when the physical act of warging is not occuring. Bran knew he shouldn't climb, he made a promise to his mother. He made a choice to ignore the inner voice telling him not to climb. I believe Summer was physically expressing Brans inner voice telling him that he promised his mother not to climb. The same thing with Grey Wolf, Catlyn warned Rob of how fickle the Freys are. Rob made the choice to ignore it, or more that he probably did have reservations but it was Grey Wind who physically displayed them. My veiw may have been too simple I see now, but I was perceiving these instances as Jiminy Cricket moments with the wolves. "Always let your conscience be your guide" In these instances, Bran and Rob ignored their conscience reminding them of their mothers advice. It is an ongoing debate among scientist wether animals have a conscience, a moral compass between good and evil, therefore I say it was the human aspect of the direwolves leading their actions.

It is easier to spot the wolf taking over the man, as with some of Jon's rages. Maybe a little harder to spot the human taking over the wolf (when not in physical warg mode), But I believe it happens both ways.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

Just to share my initial response, I saw this as the human expression of the direwolves. Part of the wolf is in the warg and part of the warg is in the wolf always, even when the physical act of warging is not occuring. Bran knew he shouldn't climb, he made a promise to his mother. He made a choice to ignore the inner voice telling him not to climb. I believe Summer was physically expressing Brans inner voice telling him that he promised his mother not to climb. The same thing with Grey Wolf, Catlyn warned Rob of how fickle the Freys are. Rob made the choice to ignore it, or more that he probably did have reservations but it was Grey Wind who physically displayed them. My view may have been too simple I see now, but I was perceiving these instances as Jiminy Cricket moments with the wolves. "Always let your conscience be your guide" In these instances, Bran and Rob ignored their conscience reminding them of their mothers advice.

I quite like this way of looking at it :).

[dios_achilleus]

Hi, new here, and since y'all don't mind covering old ground... :)

The story of the Night King bothers me because of the weirwood gate below the Nightfort. It seems that only humans can pass through it since Coldhands cannot go with Sam, but the Night King story asserts that an Other came through it. I assumed that the magic guarding the CotF cave is similar to that entwined with the Wall (both kept Coldhands out, as well as others). So I'm led to a few possibilities:

1) Any living thing can pass through the magic barrier if they're given access by a human with the right words (NW vow, in the Wall's case), a form of magic guest-right (perhaps why that vow is so sacred? Hmm...).

2) The Night King is pre-Wall or pre-Black Gate/ pre-magic barrier. I don't think this is right though. Seems like the Wall was raised by magic (how else could it be so high?), so this seems unlikely.

3) The Wall magic barrier cannot stop an Other, only wights and humans without the words. This would be why the Night's Watch has to exist, to guard against the Others. Of course, then how the Night King could ever have occurred is peculiar. Maybe the Others and First Men were not always at war?

4) The story of the Night King is hyperbole with respect to bringing his queen with him. In reality, he was just a wight similar to Coldhands, being "warged" by his queen even through the magic barrier of the Wall.

Thoughts? Help?

[JonNonRegis]

I believe Summer was physically expressing Brans inner voice telling him that he promised his mother not to climb.

Possible. I would get on board with this idea if Bran reaches into a cookie jar, right before dinnertime, and Summer howls to remind him that Catelyn said not to spoil his appetite.

the Night King story asserts that an Other came through [the Black Gate].

This assumes the Black Gate was the only means of crossing the Wall at that time, but we don't know that. It's only been guessed.

[Black Crow]

A quick question before it evolves elsewhere:

Do we have any indication on the number of the CotF when the First Men arrived?

I just wondered if the one hundred dragonglass daggers tell us something about the number of CotF and we were wrong in connecting them to the one hundred kingdoms?

The short answer is that we're not given any census figures. On the one hand we've got Leaf's assertion that they are good ecologists and try not to overpopulate the land, but on the other hand we have Bloodraven's assertion that one in a thousand is a skinchanger and one in a thousand skinchangers has the potential to be a greenseer.

Now if we do a simple bit of arithmetic here and suppose that when the greenseers of the children met to asgree the Pact on the Isle of Faces there were at least three of them that would imply a population of around 3 million, with proportionately more if there were more greenseers. In theory the figure could be higher still if we also allow for the assertion that those so "blessed" do not live as long as ordinary Children.