Heresy 71

[wolfmaid7]

You use the evidence of wolf dreams to state that the wolves are initiating the bond with the children. I might agree with your conclusion if it wasn't for the fact that wolf dreams were not the first symptom of the bond. The first thing that happened was the wolves becoming like their partners. Lady was often noted to be the most calm and agreeable. It was even willing to walk into Eddards arms to be slaughtered. It followed commands just like Sansa did. Lady was always the proper little wolf. While ghost was always the quiet wolf. Jon was always the quietest and most serious of the stark children. I believe the similarities between the wolves and their wargs is the first evidence of the warg bond being formed. So, by the time any wolf dreams happened, the bond between wolf and warg was already formed. Because the bond was already formed, using wolf dreams as evidence for the wolves initiating the bond is bad logic. It seems perfectly reasonable, even likely, that the wolf dreams were simply the end result of a growing bond not the bonds initiation.

Alas you still seem to be missing the point, however you made my point stronger , if you look at this issue and all the players insignificant and not you will see the underline and reoccurring theme. In addition there is a fine line between coincidence and faith and the fact that a dead DW with the exact amount of pups for the Stark kids and a white one for Jon Snow is a bit more than coinkydink.

So seeing as there isn't going to be a consensus on this I agree to disagree and stand on this side if the issue until proven wrong. Next issue

[Urrax]

...In other words was it necessary for her to birth the shadow once inside because although she could pass, it couldn't?

This seems more likely, especially as she can pass freely through the Wall....

:agree: Though not with the further suggestion, since I don't see Mel et al as fire popsicles, and even if so I don't see why warding one would ward the other.

[Black Crow]

:agree: Though not with the further suggestion, since I don't see Mel et al as fire popsicles, and even if so I don't see why warding one would ward the other.

Well there's two ways of looking at this. First that magic is magic and that the warding on the Wall is the same as the warding on Storm's end - like an electric fence it has no opinion as to who it fries.

Alternatively the Wall is only warded against Craster's boys and their wights.

The second might sound straightforward until you explore it a little further. If the warding in the Wall is focussed on holding Ice at bay, why does the warding at Storm's End hold Fire at bay, ie; Mel's magic

[LynnS]

I've wondered about the warding at Storm's End as well and the double ring walls. I wonder if each defensive wall is warded against a specific magic one fire and one shadow as well as having a physical defense of stone. Who comes with fire and shadow magic in force?

I've also wondered if Winterfell is warded in some way as well with it's two ring walls. I recall Dany before entering the Tower of the Undying saying that she was in the presence of sorcery. Theon seems to have had some kind of green dream in the godswood at Ramsey's Snows wedding.

If I recall correctly, Storms End was attacked three times. The castle, the first wall and then the second wall? Falling twice but repelling the third attack.

[GoldenVale]

If we want to analyze the Night's king legend, perhaps it would be helpful to quote the entire legend from the books. Here it is...

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

Martin, George R.R. (2011-03-22). George R. R. Martin's A Game of Thrones 4-Book Bundle: A Song of Ice and Fire Series: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and A Feast for Crows (Song of Ice & Fire) (Kindle Locations 50412-50420). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

Here is the quote about Val...

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

Martin, George R.R. (2011-07-12). A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five (p. 703). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

Forgive me for associating the two physical descriptions. They still seem fairly similar to me. She's white with blue eyes, so is the queen described in the night's king tale. While I agree that the description of the Night's queen does fit the description of the popsicles, it's also supposed to be around 8000 years old, which seems like plenty of time for the tale to have changed in the telling.

I think you're making a mistake here. As some already pointed Jon would have definitely noticed if Val's blue eyes were more of a "Midnight Wight Blue" rather than regular blue.

And I don't think you can compare the description of the Night Kings Ice Queen having pale SKIN to Val wearing white clothes. That's not a similarity at all.

snip...On the prevois page, a brief conversation about wards started. There was one ward which wasn't mentioned though, namely the warding around storm's end. I find myself wondering why storm's end was warded. Did it's builders fear popsicles? If not, why bother to go through the trouble of warding the place?

Well we all know the story, but I'm sure we don't think it can be believed. I've toyed with the idea that a COTF did indeed help with the construction.

We know that the COTF can seemingly cause and control(?) highly destructive forces of nature and weather. Whether they do this through magic of their own or one of them was Stor from the X-Men it's certainly within their power. Say if thy wanted to destroy some pesky lords castle, maybe for military purposes they would certainly try wouldn't they? If that lord convinced one of the Children, through violence, actual partnership or hey maybe they were in love after all to help him ward the castle against such forces.

Simply put, I'm saying that it's very likely that there were some COTF who joined the FM in the war and that it was one of those who warded Storm's End to protect it being crushed by the power of the other COTF.

Well there's two ways of looking at this. First that magic is magic and that the warding on the Wall is the same as the warding on Storm's end - like an electric fence it has no opinion as to who it fries.

Alternatively the Wall is only warded against Craster's boys and their wights.

The second might sound straightforward until you explore it a little further. If the warding in the Wall is focussed on holding Ice at bay, why does the warding at Storm's End hold Fire at bay, ie; Mel's magic

I think it's more likely that it's warded against different magic. Like say a databases for a security system the magic only recognizes magic of it's kind. i.e . it was warded by the Children so everything related to the Children can go through. However when a different ind of magic shows up ( Mel, Popsicles) the magic of the ward resists it because it's foreign. Like a bouncer at a club who let's in only regulars and keeps the losers outside (not that I've had any experience with that ahem) .

To go further, WWs can't seem to go past the wall but wargs/skinchangers, greenseers etc (all magical identities I'm sure you agree) have no problem because those were things associated with the COTF. Ole Mel Monster-crotch however isn't. She's an anomaly so she's resisted by the wards.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Well there's two ways of looking at this. First that magic is magic and that the warding on the Wall is the same as the warding on Storm's end - like an electric fence it has no opinion as to who it fries.

Alternatively the Wall is only warded against Craster's boys and their wights.

The second might sound straightforward until you explore it a little further. If the warding in the Wall is focussed on holding Ice at bay, why does the warding at Storm's End hold Fire at bay, ie; Mel's magic

She didn't passed by herself, she was in a galley, IIRC. In other words, she was put inside the barrier. It was like the two wights that were brought to the wall. Somehow, magically, they can't go by themselves but can be "taken".

[Black Crow]

She didn't passed by herself, she was in a galley, IIRC. In other words, she was put inside the barrier. It was like the two wights that were brought to the wall. Somehow, magically, they can't go by themselves but can be "taken".

Slightly more complicated than that. We have of course discussed in the past how Othor and Jafer might have been allowed through, not simply because they were physically carried, but carried by men of the Nights Watch and so inadvertently "invited" in - a common motif in folklore.

This isn't so with Mel because Davos wasn't one of the garrison of Storm's end, but represented the other side, and so didn't have the power to "invite" her in.

This therefore brings us back to my original proposition that either (1) the warding stops all magic, so Mel had to find a way inside before working hers, which is pretty well what we see, or (2) the warding stopped her, but only down to ground level - and if so who warded the walls against Fire?

This is why I favour the idea that the Wall will stop neither Mel nor Craster's boys, but does prevent their working their magic through it - just as Ghost was unable to communicate with Jon when they were each on different sides of it.

[wolfmaid7]

Well there's two ways of looking at this. First that magic is magic and that the warding on the Wall is the same as the warding on Storm's end - like an electric fence it has no opinion as to who it fries.

Alternatively the Wall is only warded against Craster's boys and their wights.

The second might sound straightforward until you explore it a little further. If the warding in the Wall is focussed on holding Ice at bay, why does the warding at Storm's End hold Fire at bay, ie; Mel's magic

I was just about to ask that,because it does seem weird.Also are we sure the Wall guards against Popsicles or even Wights?To be honest the Wights scare me more than the Popsiees,so the entire buisness with Jaffar and Othor seem very odd.Im guessing that they were heading for the Wall after getting "touched" then daylight and it being warm put them into stasis.I don't know if i'm remembering right ,they may have been put there or just as i said environmental conditions changed so they took a nap.

I guess it bothers me is lets say it was dark and cold by the time they got to the Wall,two blast sound they open the gates.Would they have been able to pass the threshold,because once inside it and the conditions got right they sure were able to rise.I believe the cold was inside them,but that it lays domont just like the Wights outside the COTF cave.

Then we have Mel who essentially has a human husk and it seems that without it her SB would not have been able to pass over the threshold of SE on its own.

So my question is could it be possible that the human part outside is and could serving as passage in Mel's case(fire inside her) and what ever it is inhabiting the Wights (cold inside them)across these Wardings? Kind of like an animated husk.

[Black Crow]

Jon makes a point of noting how mild and even unusually warm it is when they find Othor and Jafer and then carry them back. Then that night we're told that the wind starts blowing out of the north and it gets much colder.

[wolfmaid7]

Jon makes a point of noting how mild and even unusually warm it is when they find Othor and Jafer and then carry them back. Then that night we're told that the wind starts blowing out of the north and it gets much colder.

So Mel, the Wights and maybe Popsicles -if they started out human -could be that way as a means of getting them across certain Wards to activate or deliver what's inside them.

My verdict is still out on the Popsiees

[Black Crow]

I don't necessarily think that being human in origin is a passport. Othor and Jafer after all were human, albeit dead.

I think I'd still be inclined to look at Craster's boys being able to pass through the Wall as easily as Mel does - assuming the gates are open - but just as with Mel's shadow babies and Ghost's communication problem, they can't send their servants (in this case wights) through.

Apart from anything else, I think events at the Wall could be much more "interesting" if this turns out to be the case.

[mrbutabara]

So the WW would have to raise their army of undead after they pass the wall, or bring down the wall to bring their already created army over.

[King of Winters]

I don't necessarily think that being human in origin is a passport. Othor and Jafer after all were human, albeit dead.

I think I'd still be inclined to look at Craster's boys being able to pass through the Wall as easily as Mel does - assuming the gates are open - but just as with Mel's shadow babies and Ghost's communication problem, they can't send their servants (in this case wights) through.

Apart from anything else, I think events at the Wall could be much more "interesting" if this turns out to be the case.

I think the reason they can't send wights through is because the Wall is a neutral zone where both old races and humans can gather and parley.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Slightly more complicated than that. We have of course discussed in the past how Othor and Jafer might have been allowed through, not simply because they were physically carried, but carried by men of the Nights Watch and so inadvertently "invited" in - a common motif in folklore.

This isn't so with Mel because Davos wasn't one of the garrison of Storm's end, but represented the other side, and so didn't have the power to "invite" her in.

This therefore brings us back to my original proposition that either (1) the warding stops all magic, so Mel had to find a way inside before working hers, which is pretty well what we see, or (2) the warding stopped her, but only down to ground level - and if so who warded the walls against Fire?

This is why I favour the idea that the Wall will stop neither Mel nor Craster's boys, but does prevent their working their magic through it - just as Ghost was unable to communicate with Jon when they were each on different sides of it.

But BR talked with Bran and looks that they can control ravens. Why they can but Jon can't (I know that BR is more powerful sorcerer than Jon think one can be).

[Black Crow]

But BR talked with Bran and looks that they can control ravens. Why they can but Jon can't (I know that BR is more powerful sorcerer than Jon think one can be).

Something to study on as they say, but its worth noting that GRRM specifically drew attention to the communication problem as "a small but significant plot device".

[Urrax]

.... If the warding in the Wall is focussed on holding Ice at bay, why does the warding at Storm's End hold Fire at bay, ie; Mel's magic

Are her shadows of Stannis fire?

[JonNonRegis]

chuckle

Urrax has read my complete Grand Unified Theory and is on board with most of it. I see he now can't resist dropping hints here and there...

[redriver]

Something to study on as they say, but its worth noting that GRRM specifically drew attention to the communication problem as "a small but significant plot device".

My take on this is that Bran and Bloodraven use the weirnet,whose roots are connected below the Wall.And it looks like Bran was subconsciously able to do this even before he met Bloodraven.(When he connected to Jon via Ghost).

Only greenseers can use the weirnet.

[Lord Ravenstark]

My take on this is that Bran and Bloodraven use the weirnet,whose roots are connected below the Wall.And it looks like Bran was subconsciously able to do this even before he met Bloodraven.(When he connected to Jon via Ghost).

Only greenseers can use the weirnet.

I don't think so... in my theory any skinchanger (within CotF's order fed) with weirwood paste can connect the weirnet. Something like a bee fed on jelly more than others will be a queen. CotF only grants weirnet privileges to their greenseers. Any non-greenseer will only be able to enter in the weirnet after the death.

[redriver]

I don't think so... in my theory any skinchanger (within CotF's order fed) with weirwood paste can connect the weirnet. Something like a bee fed on jelly more than others will be a queen. CotF only grants weirnet privileges to their greenseers. Any non-greenseer will only be able to enter in the weirnet after the death.

Bloodraven says that only one in a thousand skinchangers can be a greenseer and that the old gods mark them by eye colour,amongst other things.And have you considered that it may not be the COTF who identify greenseers,perhaps it's the weirwoods themselves?

It's a fairly exclusive club.You can't just spoon feed weirwood paste into any old skinchanger and make him a greenseer.