Heresy 71

[Black Wolf Smith]

If we further assume that GRRM has not changed the story along the way, then it would be reasonable to assume that Jon's character development will somehow be altered if / when he comes by the R+L=J knowledge.

One thing is for certain, GRRM did not work R+L=J into the story because it is 'irrelevant'.

Please note: I am not suggesting that Jon will ever be a king, ride a dragon, or carry a Targ banner, I am just saying 'Why, implant the R+L=J intrigue into the story if nothing will ever come of it?'

IIRC GRRM has said many times things like, the roads might have change but not the destination, so no the story hasn't changed.

I don't think that any one said R was irrelevant, just that L was more important and as someone else said it has played a big part of how Jon was raised, and what brought him to where he is. Part of the reason I am a heretic is that I thought even before I came here, that while knowing R might change his life, it won't change who he is.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not inclined to read too much into this business of marrying the dragons. Its really just pretty straightforward. All through Westerosi history the North has been different and remained independent of the Andal kingdoms. Only when the Targaryens/dragons came, did Torrhen Stark bend the knee and the North became part of the kingdom of Westeros.

What's a much more pertinent question is why, when this only happened 300 years ago, is Moat Caillin such a ruin and has been such a ruin for so long. Its wooden keep is said to have rotted away 1,000 years ago. We need not necessarily take this literally but its very clear that the castle was abandoned and ruined long before Aegon tooled up. Therefore somewhere along the line there has to be some kind of peace treaty with the Andals, and a treaty or Pact if you will so solidly binding as to render the castle redundant. Or rather more than redundant, because peaceful relations of not its still the only gateway to the North and that it is abandoned and ruined suggests that this was a requirement of the Pact.

That in turn is surely significant and begs a further questionmark about all those southerners, knights as well as criminals, on the Wall. Somewhere quite far back in history there was not only a peace treaty but one which involved a right of passage for all those knights whose sigils adorned the Shield Hall.

While I do think Lyanna's blood is the more important part of Jon's story I do believe him possibly being Rheagar's son will come into play politically. This revelation is going to become public knowledge and factions who may seek to exploit it may come to light. Jon may have different people then pulling at him saying it is his duty to do XYZ. It also may mean even if he doesn't share a desire for that type if leadership he will be a threat to others which puts his life in more danger.

Also while I think a Jon/Dany union is out of the question I believe the Targs and the Starks are connected somehow. There are hints if this in the language and visual hints GRRM has employed .From the above statement to Robert's statement to Ned about him having the "better" claim to Cressens POV on Dragonstone.

There is something that's for sure.

[Urrax]

... This reminds me of Dany assuming that Quaithe is from Asshai. I've been looking for the passage where Quaithe actually says she's from Asshai. All she says is that she is "of the shadow" in perfect Westerosi. ...

The appendix to Dance says explicitly that Quaithe is "a masked shadowbinder from Asshai."

[Morrigan's Raven]

Going back a few pages to the Mel going under Storm's End...there is a theme of magic not working in flowing water. Davos brought Mel through the defenses on flowing water, and she birthed her shadow baby inside on land. I always assumed this was why.

On the inactivated wights brought through the wall by Jon, maybe they were not under the action-directive of a popsicle before going through the wall? Or maybe, when the wall weeps, enough water flows to negate magic.

[dotheknifefight]

if jon turned out to be a legitimate son of rhaegar and lyanna, this would make his legitimate claim for the iron throne.... but would this also put him first in line for winterfell? (i'm a bit confused on succession... if there's an older sister, would her son come before her younger brother?)

[dotheknifefight]

Also while I think a Jon/Dany union is out of the question.

if its out of the question, what do you make of the last vision at the house of the undying (blue flower in a chink on the wall, bride of fire) ...

[King of Winters]

Going back a few pages to the Mel going under Storm's End...there is a theme of magic not working in flowing water. Davos brought Mel through the defenses on flowing water, and she birthed her shadow baby inside on land. I always assumed this was why.

On the inactivated wights brought through the wall by Jon, maybe they were not under the action-directive of a popsicle before going through the wall? Or maybe, when the wall weeps, enough water flows to negate magic.

I think it's more to do with wards around Storm's End that stop any magic harming people inside. That's why Mels had to get under it, but within the perimeter. The magic, I think, is COTF magic the FM used to protect themselves inside. Winterfell may have the same wards if Brandon the Builder helped build both.

[LynnS]

The appendix to Dance says explicitly that Quaithe is "a masked shadowbinder from Asshai."

The appendix to Dance says explicitly that Quaithe is "a masked shadowbinder from Asshai."

Interesting. And yet she's been urging Dany to go back to Vaes Dothrak to the crones "beneath the shadow" of the Mother of Mountains. "To go north, go south; to go east, go west". Dany eventually decides to go north-east It would follow that she then go south-west. This put's Quaithe back into the "unknown" catergory for me and puts the meaning of Euron's sigil into question as well. I'll have to wait and see.

Edit: If there is a Loki character in the story; it has to be the author; a catch me if you can kind of guy; stringing counterfeit bills along the way.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/Hoaxipedia/Silence_Dogood/

[King of Winters]

Interesting. And yet she's been urging Dany to go back to Vaes Dothrak to the crones "beneath the shadow" of the Mother of Mountains. "To go north, go south; to go east, go west". Dany eventually decides to go north-east It would follow that she then go south-west. This put's Quaithe back into the "unknown" catergory for me and puts the meaning of Euron's sigil into question as well. I'll have to wait and see.

Edit: If there is a Loki character in the story; it has to be the author; a catch me if you can kind of guy; stringing counterfeit bills along the way.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/Hoaxipedia/Silence_Dogood/

I thinks it's more of Dany has to go back to her past, to Vaes Dothrak, in order for her to go forward to Westeros.

[LynnS]

I thinks it's more of Dany has to go back to her past, to Vaes Dothrak, in order for her to go forward to Westeros.

Yes I take that meaning as well. I think the crones will the light the path for her in some way beneath the mountain. They have their own seers and prophecies. Practically, she needs another army before she can move on from Meereen. I think that her journey into the past will begin in Vaes Dothrak but it won't end there.

[King of Winters]

Yes I take that meaning as well. I think the crones will the light the path for her in some way beneath the mountain. They have their own seers and prophecies. Practically, she needs another army before she can move on from Meereen. I think that her journey into the past will begin in Vaes Dothrak but it won't end there.

I think once all the other Dothraki see she's got a dragon capable of killing, they'll follow her to Meeren.

[Mother Other]

Going back a few pages to the Mel going under Storm's End...there is a theme of magic not working in flowing water. Davos brought Mel through the defenses on flowing water, and she birthed her shadow baby inside on land. I always assumed this was why.

On the inactivated wights brought through the wall by Jon, maybe they were not under the action-directive of a popsicle before going through the wall? Or maybe, when the wall weeps, enough water flows to negate magic.

If you are looking for why the bodies Jon brought back to Castle Black haven't been wightified, the following passages may provide the hints for that:

ADWD

"That king is missing his sword," Lady Dustin observed.

It was true. Theon did not recall which king it was, but the longsword he should have held was gone. Streaks of rust remained to show where it had been. The sight disquieted him. He had always heard that the iron in the sword kept the spirits of the dead locked within their tombs. If a sword was missing …"

ADWD

"What would the lord commander like us to do with his corpses?"

asked Marsh when the living men had been moved.

"Leave them." If the storm entombed them, well and good. He would need to burn them eventually, no doubt, but for the nonce they were bound with iron chains inside their cells. That, and being dead, should suffice to hold them harmless."

I believe this was discussed in a previous heresy thread, although I read through them quickly and cannot rightly remember which.

[LynnS]

I think once all the other Dothraki see she's got a dragon capable of killing, they'll follow her to Meeren.

That seems to be where it's going. I'm hoping for some big revelations and more cryptic prophecies. LOL!

But after reflection; I think I'm going to stick with my interpretation of Quaithe/Sarella/Alleras. The appendix feels a bit like the wiki to me, updating and changing. Quaithe is listed as an uncertain friend and I still maintain that Quaithe never said she was from Asshai and this was assumed by Dany. I note there is no appendix for the Citadel yet. That seems a bit of a black hole to me. Sarella is listed as one of the Sand Snakes but nothing about her at the Citadel. I think it suited Quaithe to have Dany assume she was from Asshai. She is after all masking her identity.

[Black Crow]

Moat Cailin when compared to the passes into Dorne is a bit strange. The Dornish effectively have major lords protecting the boneway and Princes' pass.

Moat Cailin should be the home of a lordly house - a warden of the southern frontier? Why hasn't that been the case, even with the crannogmen loyal to the Starks, a lordly or knightly house there surely would make sense?

This is exactly the point I was making. War or peace there should be somebody charged with guarding the gateway to the North just as Edmure Tully guarded the gateway to the Vale. Subsidence may very well explain why the stone towers are sinking and why the keep was of wood, but not why the place is abandoned and without a gatekeeper.

That can only be explained by some kind of pact with the Andal kings, at the very least establishing a demilitarised zone long before Aegon tooled up to marry the North to the Andal kingdoms.

[Black Crow]

IIRC GRRM has said many times things like, the roads might have change but not the destination, so no the story hasn't changed.

I don't think that any one said R was irrelevant, just that L was more important and as someone else said it has played a big part of how Jon was raised, and what brought him to where he is. Part of the reason I am a heretic is that I thought even before I came here, that while knowing R might change his life, it won't change who he is.

Exactly so, Rhaegar is not irrelevant in so far as the need to conceal the connection shaped the secrecy over Jon's birth, and he is also a very useful red herring in drawing attention away from Jon's real destiny in the North. And what's important there as I said is the fact that he is a Stark by blood and by upbringing. He is, as Maester Aemon very forcefully declared; a Son of Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

I thinks it's more of Dany has to go back to her past, to Vaes Dothrak, in order for her to go forward to Westeros.

I have to disagree with this one though. This is the Song of Ice and Fire and I think the going back is going much further back - to the Smoking Sea of Valyria, back where the Targaryens and their dragons came from.

[King of Winters]

I have to disagree with this one though. This is the Song of Ice and Fire and I think the going back is going much further back - to the Smoking Sea of Valyria, back where the Targaryens and their dragons came from.

Ah, of course! I forgot about that.

[Black Crow]

if jon turned out to be a legitimate son of rhaegar and lyanna, this would make his legitimate claim for the iron throne.... but would this also put him first in line for winterfell? (i'm a bit confused on succession... if there's an older sister, would her son come before her younger brother?)

The short answer is no.

Under the normal rules of succession, if Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen, the line of succession would run as follows.

Rhaegar was the eldest son of Aerys and therefore the heir. Even though he died before his father, his own heirs come before any other children of Aerys. Thus his son Aegon was next in line before Viserys and Danaerys. Viserys only became heir because Aegon were murdered and Rhaegar therefore left no known heirs.

If young Griff is indeed Aegon, then he comes before Danaerys. If he is a fake, or gets his head bashed in, then if Jon is indeed the legitimate son of Rhaegar he would be next in line, unless he was illegitimate in which case the legitimate heir would still be Danaerys.

Now there are a couple of side issues to this. Whether of not Aegon/Griff is the true heir, his intervention is going to immensely complicate Danaerys' planned return. A year ago in book time she might have sailed from Meereen as the rightful Targaryen heir and the saviour of the ravaged kingdom. Now, albeit there are the dragons, she is just one more pretender.

The other side issue, is that decree of legitimisation drawn up by King Robb. This is a legal document asserting that Jon Snow is actually Jon Stark, the lawful son of Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell. Jon cannot, legally, be both the lawful son of Eddard Stark and at one and the same time the lawful son of Rhaegar Targaryen. It means that if Howland Reed really does come crawling out the swamp waving a mouldy parchment asserting that Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark were properly wed, Jon gets to choose his father...

[addicted to snow]

IIRC GRRM has said many times things like, the roads might have change but not the destination, so no the story hasn't changed.

I don't think that any one said R was irrelevant, just that L was more important and as someone else said it has played a big part of how Jon was raised, and what brought him to where he is. Part of the reason I am a heretic is that I thought even before I came here, that while knowing R might change his life, it won't change who he is.

Black Crow said that R was 'irrelevant', I was just telling him that would be poor writing...

[Black Crow]

Black Crow said that R was 'irrelevant', I was just telling him that would be poor writing...

Rhaegar is irrelevant in regard to where the story is going. What matters and will matter is that Jon is a son of Winterfell not that he may be the heir to the Iron Throne.

Rhaegar is important to the story only in so far as he's been responsible for having kicked a lot of this off and in providing a convenient smokescreen for Jon's true purpose. He is not relevant to what's going to happen next.

ETA: I would also say that far from being poor writing, it is actually very good writing in that GRRM has successfully diverted attention to the possibility of Rhaegar being Jon's father and away from the significance of Lyanna being his mother.