Heresy 71

[wolfmaid7]

There has to be motivation for the Popsicles to come down though, It may be a seasonal/time related thing, but there is something they are trying to do I would think. Of course I do see heavy possible connections with the COTF, but they themselves seem to be concious of something as well.

I had postulated before that the motivation for Popsicles coming down is " the cold" it is the entity that raises the Wights and it is it they are following and it is moving south out of the north .it is the cyclical event that comes over the land every so X yrs and the WW is to it as the pilot fish is to a Shark .

[#Fire and Blood]

I had postulated before that the motivation for Popsicles coming down is " the cold" it is the entity that raises the Wights and it is it they are following and it is moving south out of the north .it is the cyclical event that comes over the land every so X yrs and the WW is to it as the pilot fish is to a Shark .

Then why do they raise an army on the way?

[Joe Pine]

Then why do they raise an army on the way?

Yup and clearly they are doing well this before the white ravens declaring 'Winter' are sent by the Citadel. The White Walkers are active from the earliest part of the series, the gathering of the free folk by Mance possibly helps them to pick off humans at the edges of the column to be wighted as does the running away to Hardhome after Stannis' intervention but they're certainly active before that.

Presumably their activity sets off Benjen's interest and is possibly why he disappeared, rather than the Wildings or a quest for a whatever in the furthest north.

Then you have to ask are the white walkers the ones to trigger the way through the wall or is there a Great Other type intelligence controlling or guiding them to get a frosty horde together?

More questions than answers I guess.

[wolfmaid7]

While I'm on my phone and can't pull text at the moment , we have not seen Popsicles raise Wighs. We have what people believe, but that is reasonably doubful because as I've said there is a misidentifying going on and that's textual.

We have seen many encounters where Wights raise up but Popscicles aren't around, or Popsees left hours ago before the dead comes back or Popsees showed up long after Wights have passed. Yet no evidence that they are raising anyone.

It's the same thing seeing a vulture near a carcass and assuming they killed the animal. It's seems that we are making the same mistakes that perpetuated old Nan's tale about them.

[Joe Pine]

While I'm on my phone and can't pull text at the moment , we have not seen Popsicles raise Wighs. We have what people believe, but that is reasonably doubful because as I've said there is a misidentifying going on and that's textual.

We have seen many encounters where Wights raise up but Popscicles aren't around, or Popsees left hours ago before the dead comes back or Popsees showed up long after Wights have passed. Yet no evidence that they are raising anyone.

It's the same thing seeing a vulture near a carcass and assuming they killed the animal. It's seems that we are making the same mistakes that perpetuated old Nan's tale about them.

From memory that's a fair shout. I'll admit to have taken the jump that the WW raise the wights, but yeah I guess there's not a specific reference to it.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Yup and clearly they are doing well this before the white ravens declaring 'Winter' are sent by the Citadel. The White Walkers are active from the earliest part of the series, the gathering of the free folk by Mance possibly helps them to pick off humans at the edges of the column to be wighted as does the running away to Hardhome after Stannis' intervention but they're certainly active before that.

Presumably their activity sets off Benjen's interest and is possibly why he disappeared, rather than the Wildings or a quest for a whatever in the furthest north.

Then you have to ask are the white walkers the ones to trigger the way through the wall or is there a Great Other type intelligence controlling or guiding them to get a frosty horde together?

More questions than answers I guess.

I still wish we knew more about Benjen's disappearance and what his real mission was. IMO, zero chance he's dead.

[King Tyrion VIII]

From memory that's a fair shout. I'll admit to have taken the jump that the WW raise the wights, but yeah I guess there's not a specific reference to it.

I don't remember any reference either.

[Joe Pine]

I still wish we knew more about Benjen's disappearance and what his real mission was. IMO, zero chance he's dead.

It's almost a void in terms o what you can find on him, nothing certain at all.

Unless he's pretending to be someone else, somewhere else, but that's a stretch.

[Sir Bonifer Big Balls]

It's almost a void in terms o what you can find on him, nothing certain at all.

Unless he's pretending to be someone else, somewhere else, but that's a stretch.

Has anyone ever considered the fact that Benjen may have simply deserted? It's a stretch I know as he is a Stark, but I am quite confident not every Stark through history has been honorable. His initial conversation with Jon in A Game of Thrones about giving up things such as holding your own child in your arms, etc makes me wonder if he wasn't speaking from personal experience. We know nothing about his reasons for joining the NW. Perhaps he had someone on the other side of the Wall and said F it after his ranging party was killed by the Others and has now found a quiet piece of the Land of Always Winter to settle down in (I don't really believe that but you never know in this series).

[King Tyrion VIII]

It's almost a void in terms o what you can find on him, nothing certain at all.

Unless he's pretending to be someone else, somewhere else, but that's a stretch.

Yeah I keep wanting to do a write up on him but theres so little info I keep deciding not to do it. The best piece of evidence of Benjen's survival, the cache Ghost leads Jon to, isnt very strong.

[#Fire and Blood]

While I'm on my phone and can't pull text at the moment , we have not seen Popsicles raise Wighs. We have what people believe, but that is reasonably doubful because as I've said there is a misidentifying going on and that's textual.

We have seen many encounters where Wights raise up but Popscicles aren't around, or Popsees left hours ago before the dead comes back or Popsees showed up long after Wights have passed. Yet no evidence that they are raising anyone.

It's the same thing seeing a vulture near a carcass and assuming they killed the animal. It's seems that we are making the same mistakes that perpetuated old Nan's tale about them.

I know we are not taking the show to be a literal translation, but it seems we have for some things. The end of season 2 clearly shows the other leading the wights.

In the prolog of the first book, Waymar Royce is killed by an Other and raises immediately as a Wight. I know it does not literally say that the Other then took over his body or raised his body as a Wight, but they are in such close proximity, it would be hard to deny.

Others eyes are blue, wights eyes are blue.

I know GRRM likes to "throw us off" often, but this one seems a stretch to me.

Unless there is something extremely relevant to prove your point in the story, there is no reason to believe they are unrelated.

It would also be a good tactic for the Others. They themselves (like the COTF) appear to be in small number. It would make sense that they raise the army to do the bulk of the grunt work, and they hang out on the edges to collect the dead. Granted, the cold or approaching long winter very well may have something to do with the fact that the Others (popsicles) are able to raise them now, but it does not negate the fact that they have something to do with it.

On an unrelated note, a theory of mine is perhaps the wildlings unlocked the Others from ice tombs when they were digging around for the horn of J.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Has anyone ever considered the fact that Benjen may have simply deserted? It's a stretch I know as he is a Stark, but I am quite confident not every Stark through history has been honorable. His initial conversation with Jon in A Game of Thrones about giving up things such as holding your own child in your arms, etc makes me wonder if he wasn't speaking from personal experience. We know nothing about his reasons for joining the NW. Perhaps he had someone on the other side of the Wall and said F it after his ranging party was killed by the Others and has now found a quiet piece of the Land of Always Winter to settle down in (I don't really believe that but you never know in this series).

I believe he is alive in the LOAW, I have no idea how he got there. Your idea is certainly possible, though I'm not sure if GRRM would choose to write him as a deserter.

[King Tyrion VIII]

I know we are not taking the show to be a literal translation, but it seems we have for some things. The end of season 2 clearly shows the other leading the wights.

In the prolog of the first book, Waymar Royce is killed by an Other and raises immediately as a Wight. I know it does not literally say that the Other then took over his body or raised his body as a Wight, but they are in such close proximity, it would be hard to deny.

Others eyes are blue, wights eyes are blue.

I know GRRM likes to "throw us off" often, but this one seems a stretch to me.

Unless there is something extremely relevant to prove your point in the story, there is no reason to believe they are unrelated.

It would also be a good tactic for the Others. They themselves (like the COTF) appear to be in small number. It would make sense that they raise the army to do the bulk of the grunt work, and they hang out on the edges to collect the dead. Granted, the cold or approaching long winter very well may have something to do with the fact that the Others (popsicles) are able to raise them now, but it does not negate the fact that they have something to do with it.

On an unrelated note, a theory of mine is perhaps the wildlings unlocked the Others from ice tombs when they were digging around for the horn of J.

Were they already digging before the AGOT prologue?

[wolfmaid7]

I know we are not taking the show to be a literal translation, but it seems we have for some things. The end of season 2 clearly shows the other leading the wights.

In the prolog of the first book, Waymar Royce is killed by an Other and raises immediately as a Wight. I know it does not literally say that the Other then took over his body or raised his body as a Wight, but they are in such close proximity, it would be hard to deny.

Others eyes are blue, wights eyes are blue.

I know GRRM likes to "throw us off" often, but this one seems a stretch to me.

Unless there is something extremely relevant to prove your point in the story, there is no reason to believe they are unrelated.

It would also be a good tactic for the Others. They themselves (like the COTF) appear to be in small number. It would make sense that they raise the army to do the bulk of the grunt work, and they hang out on the edges to collect the dead. Granted, the cold or approaching long winter very well may have something to do with the fact that the Others (popsicles) are able to raise them now, but it does not negate the fact that they have something to do with it.

On an unrelated note, a theory of mine is perhaps the wildlings unlocked the Others from ice tombs when they were digging around for the horn of J.

"When he found the courage to look again, a long time had passed, and the ridge below was empty. He stayed in the tree, scarce daring to breathe, while the moon crept slowly a cross the black sky. Finally, his muscles cramping and his fingers numb with c old, he climbed down. Royce's body lay facedown in the snow, one arm outflung. The thick sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places............ Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him. His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw"(AGOT,Prologue).

As indicated in the prologue,Waymar did not rise immediately after,a long time had passed after the Popsicles left before Waymar rose and they never touched him except to kill him with their swords.

I conceded before that i absolutely believe Popsicles led and can lead the Wights what i'm saying they led them out of the realms of men,they did not lead them against man.

Lets analyze this if the plan is to kill every warm blooded thing,we don't need Popsees just let the Wights run free it is only with the Popsees leading them have we not seen the Wights overrun men yet.We have seen band of Wights killing and we've seen on tv a Popsee leading a band of Wights but where? So are they leading or collecting?

The WWs i believe -and someone correct me if i'm right- were seen before Mance started digging in the Frostfangs

Just proved my point as relevant.

[A Crow Come Over]

I know we are not taking the show to be a literal translation, but it seems we have for some things. The end of season 2 clearly shows the other leading the wights.

It doesnt clearly show that, it shows one riding among them

In the prolog of the first book, Waymar Royce is killed by an Other and raises immediately as a Wight. I know it does not literally say that the Other then took over his body or raised his body as a Wight, but they are in such close proximity, it would be hard to deny.

It was not instant, as wolfmaid pointed out

Others eyes are blue, wights eyes are blue.

I know GRRM likes to "throw us off" often but this one seems a stretch to me.

I'm not sure I follow....

Unless there is something extremely relevant to prove your point in the story, there is no reason to believe they are unrelated.

It would also be a good tactic for the Others. They themselves (like the COTF) appear to be in small number. It would make sense that they raise the army to do the bulk of the grunt work, and they hang out on the edges to collect the dead. Granted, the cold or approaching long winter very well may have something to do with the fact that the Others (popsicles) are able to raise them now, but it does not negate the fact that they have something to do with it.

We have no evidence of WW raising wights directly.

On an unrelated note, a theory of mine is perhaps the wildlings unlocked the Others from ice tombs when they were digging around for the horn of J.

They have been spotted since before the Age of Heroes, they are not a recent phenomena

[dios_achilleus]

Were they already digging before the AGOT prologue?

Presumably. Mance Rayder is mentioned as King Beyond the Wall as early as Bran's second paragraph in AGoT. Yggritte seems to indicate that they released a lot of the dead by digging up graves, the implication being that there weren't many beforehand. Here's what she says:

“I’m crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!” - Storm of Swords, Jon IV

I can't find another reference to "shades" referring to Others, WW, or wights. Seems to be a one-off reference. I'd guess they were going to specific graves, though, and not just random ones. I'd guess Mance had stories and details he'd pieced together to give him a clue as to where the horn was. At this point, it is unknown if he succeeded, but I'd imagine if the horn was real, he'd have grabbed it quickly when Stannis attacked and blown it.

On a slightly unrelated note, anyone considered that the horn Mance has is similar to the dragon horn Euron has?

The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes.

- Storm of Swords, Jon X

The horn he blew was shiny black and twisted, and taller than a man as he held it with both hands. It was bound about with bands of red gold and dark steel, incised with ancient Valyrian glyphs that seemed to glow redly as the sound swelled.

- Feast for Crows, The Drowned Man

Eight feet is "taller than a man," both have glyphs or runes and bands of gold. "Red gold" has a coppery look to it, to the untrained eye and in lower light. Just a thought.

[King Tyrion VIII]

They could do whatever is necessary to raise them and then it takes awhile for them to rise. Just speculation.

[#Fire and Blood]

It doesnt clearly show that, it shows one riding among them

It was not instant, as wolfmaid pointed out

I'm not sure I follow....

I am saying, he uses false narrator to throw us off as he has said in a few interviews. Not necessarily to purposefully throw us, but to keep things surprising.

[#Fire and Blood]

"When he found the courage to look again, a long time had passed, and the ridge below was empty. He stayed in the tree, scarce daring to breathe, while the moon crept slowly a cross the black sky. Finally, his muscles cramping and his fingers numb with c old, he climbed down. Royce's body lay facedown in the snow, one arm outflung. The thick sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places............ Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him. His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw"(AGOT,Prologue).

As indicated in the prologue,Waymar did not rise immediately after,a long time had passed after the Popsicles left before Waymar rose and they never touched him except to kill him with their swords.

I conceded before that i absolutely believe Popsicles led and can lead the Wights what i'm saying they led them out of the realms of men,they did not lead them against man.

Lets analyze this if the plan is to kill every warm blooded thing,we don't need Popsees just let the Wights run free it is only with the Popsees leading them have we not seen the Wights overrun men yet.We have seen band of Wights killing and we've seen on tv a Popsee leading a band of Wights but where? So are they leading or collecting?

The WWs i believe -and someone correct me if i'm right- were seen before Mance started digging in the Frostfangs

Just proved my point as relevant.

When Bran is in the cave of the COTF the "dead things" laid under the snow, waiting to rise again. Just because Will did not rise immediately, does not mean he wasn't turned sooner. Perhaps there is something in warm blood that "activates" or more accurately animates them.

I am not saying they are warm blood hungry; as of yet, we have yet to see a creature or person in these stories driven with one desire and one purpose. All of the players have multiple things inspiring them to do what they do. I would argue that the Ice Pops are most likely no different. There is always more to meets the eye with all of the players in the books and I doubt he would simplify one group to better the story.

*edit*

also, what do you mean they are leading them out of the realms of men rather then to them?

[GoldenVale]

"When he found the courage to look again, a long time had passed, and the ridge below was empty. He stayed in the tree, scarce daring to breathe, while the moon crept slowly a cross the black sky. Finally, his muscles cramping and his fingers numb with c old, he climbed down. Royce's body lay facedown in the snow, one arm outflung. The thick sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places............ Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him. His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw"(AGOT,Prologue).

As indicated in the prologue,Waymar did not rise immediately after,a long time had passed after the Popsicles left before Waymar rose and they never touched him except to kill him with their swords.

I conceded before that i absolutely believe Popsicles led and can lead the Wights what i'm saying they led them out of the realms of men,they did not lead them against man.

Lets analyze this if the plan is to kill every warm blooded thing,we don't need Popsees just let the Wights run free it is only with the Popsees leading them have we not seen the Wights overrun men yet.We have seen band of Wights killing and we've seen on tv a Popsee leading a band of Wights but where? So are they leading or collecting?

The WWs i believe -and someone correct me if i'm right- were seen before Mance started digging in the Frostfangs

Just proved my point as relevant.

So how long exactly is a "long time". A few minutes that just felt like a long time? A few hours?

You say we can't say for certain that the WWs raised the Wights, because we don't actually see them do it or "touched him".

I don't see why they'd have to touch him to do it but let's say that's how it works. The passage clearly states that Will looked away as soon as the WWs start butchering Royce and only looks again at the point where your excerpt stats. How can you be so sure that they didn't "touch" him in that time? Perhaps the process that turns corpses into wights isn't immediate.

The fact that the bodies of Othor and Jafer Flowers don't spring up as soon as they are discovered and only after a time seems to support this. Not only that but look at the descriptions of the bodies from Jon VII AGOT :

The Old Bear grunted. “Yes. Well. Be that as it may.” He made an impatient gesture. “Tell me how they died.”

Squatting beside the dead man he had named Jafer Flowers, Ser Jaremy grasped his head by the scalp. The hair came out between his

fingers, brittle as straw. The knight cursed and shoved at the face with the heel of his hand. A great gash in the side of the corpse’s neck

opened like a mouth, crusted with dried blood. Only a few ropes of pale tendon still attached the head to the neck. “This was done with an

axe.”

“Aye,” muttered Dywen, the old forester. “Belike the axe that Othor carried, m’lord.”

And of Othor's body:

Othor had

been a big ugly man, and he made a big ugly corpse. No axe was in evidence. Jon remembered Othor; he had been the one bellowing the

bawdy song as the rangers rode out. His singing days were done. His flesh was blanched white as milk, everywhere but his hands. His hands

were black like Jafer’s. Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and

throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.

So Othor looks like he was butchered (sound familiar) and it also looks like he turned on Jafer and killed him. This is almost exactly like the incident with Will an Co. At the very least you can't look at that and say that it isn't a pretty strong indication that the WWs have something to do with raising the Wights.

And whether or not they "lead" or "collect" them it certainly seems like the WWs have no problem, and in fact even the inclination to kill people to make Wights.

I'm not sure what your point is when you say that the WWs were seen before AGOT. That they've been active for longer than first thought? We've discussed that before and in fact think it's more likely. I'm not sure what you think that proves but to me the sheer number of Wights that just happen to be around indicates, at least to me that the WWs have been slowly doing their thing for years. They're the best they are at what they do and what they do ain't pretty (i.e they make dead things out of live things).

At this point, we have, in my opinion, some convincing evidence that the Wights are in fact raised by the WWs and that the WWs kill people to do this for some intended purpose. At the very least to throw out that possibility completely in favor of saying it's all just a big misunderstanding just seems wrong to me.

I'm not speculating on the motives of the WWs, or if they answer to some higher authority, I'm simply saying that by now, it seems pretty clear that they have some driven purpose or directive and that includes killing men and raising Wights.