Heresy 71

[Black Crow]

I cant wait to read about this :commie:

Its something we've discussed quite a lot in relatively recent heretical history, but I think you may have been away.

Basically, for all her yearning to sit on the Iron Throne of a country she has never seen and knows nothing about, Dany's story arc is concerned with what's going down out east and while Jon is getting drawn into and confronting the Ice, Dany and her dragons are about Fire. In theory they could well meet, in battle or otherwise, but that seems something of a cliche and what we've talked about is the continuance of their arcs in parallel.

Valyria has figured as prominently in the story as the Land of Always Winter and there is a feeling that just as Jon must go north into the Land of Always Winter, so Dany must go back to Valyria, where the Targaryens came from. Symetry aside there are a few pointers to this; in Volantis not only are Vogarro's missus and the other slaves looking to her coming, but Master Benero and the Red Lot are likewise expecting her, not to confront some nameless horror in the frozen north but to deal with the Old Blood of Valyria forted up behind the Black Walls.

The Azor Ahai prophecy is also relevant here, in that not only was Dany born on Dragonstone, but the Smoking Sea of Valyria also gives us the smoke and salt, while we've also discussed how the darkness might be metaphorical rather than literal; the darkness of the Valyrian Empire rather than the Long Night.

And finally there's also another clue; when they are taking their leave of each other on the Wall, Jon tells Tyrion that his uncle is lost out there and that he and Ghost will go to find him. Tyrion also has a favourite uncle, Gerion, lost in the Smoking Sea of Valyria...

No harm in discussing it over again

[LynnS]

In the 3rd Seasom of the HBO Adaptation of ASOIAF, Jojen made an interesting comment while hanging out in the Night Fort's Kitchen. He told Sam that all the Kings & all the armys of Westeros could not stop the Others (Not a 100% accurate quote). If we assume that Jojen was correct, then how is it that the Others were defeated during the Long Night?

- Were ther Others defeated?

- Or did they get what they were after & retreat of their own accord?

- Or did the Last Hero make it to the Heart of Winter & negociate some sort of deal? If so, will Val guide Jon to the Heart of Winter to strike a similiar deal? & which body will Jon be traveling in?

There is plenty of foreshadowing that Val & Ghost will become close companions in the Winds of Winter. Hopefully, Jon can find a way to keep from loosing himself inside of Ghost before it is too late. I would imagine that Ghost's 'effect' will dramatically change Jon's personality - and not for the better in many regards.

Thoughts?

I'm starting to wonder if the weirwood forest is a kind of superorganism with a symbiotic relationship with the children. There is a biochemical component to Bran eating the weirwood paste and becoming one with the tree. It seems parasitic to me. There is also Dany's vision in the Tower of Undying; "Ten thousand slaves lifted blood stained hands...." This invokes the image of the weirwood with it's leaves like blood-stained hands and I wonder if the children are slaves who rebelled as well. Fire and the burning of weirwood trees triggering a defense mechanism of the superorganism.

As for Gerrion Lannister; I suspect that he is Tyrion's father, not Tywin. I don't think Tywin had any legitimate offspring. I think this is the real reason that Gerrion went on his quest rather than besmirch the family honor, he was sent away (like Euron). Tyrion carries the family line in his name "Ty" and his father's name "rion". He seems to be the only person who actually loved Tyrion. Tyrion is the good son and good brother to Petyr who seems to be doing everything he can to destroy Tyrion. I'm hoping there is a reunion with Gerrion and Tyrion and what Tyrion will learn from him. . .

[addicted to snow]

Let me start off by saying: this is my first post on the Heresy threads, I've been lurking on reading on them a while and I have to add that I love some of the debates I've come across.

I actually have a question loosely related to Jon and his status as "heir"

If we look at the Night's Watch Oath:

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come"

I don't quite understand how, given his vows, Jon would be able to be declared the heir to Winterfell. Even in ADWD, when Stannis brings up the idea - I don't know if I missed some sort of loophole regarding this?

Sorry if this has been asked before, and I somehow missed this.

In my opinion, Jon is dead... I think that his body will be brought back to life in much the same way Drogo's body was, except Jon's consciousness will be inside of Ghost. Meanwhile, Jon's living body will be thrown into the ice cells. The Magical Wards that were built into the wall will prevent Jon from re-entering his original body (I believe this is the very specific plot device that GRRM said that he created these Wards for).

When Varamyr died, his consciousness reverted to 'One-Eye', where Varamyr thought that he would be trapped until he faded away into wolf's mind. However, in Jon's case, his original body will not be dead, only inaccessible - a loophole that may prevent Jon from being trapped inside of Ghost & fading away over time. Jon may be able to jump from skin to skin simultaneously after he learns how - much like Varamyr could before his body died.

Based on GRRm's comments & foreshadowing, I think that Jon / Ghost & Val will head North of the wall, probably initially looking for the Wildings that followed Mother Mole to Hardehome. I speculate that they will have an altercation with Varamyr's Pack & Jon may Warg One-Eye and be able to quickly & easily learn all the secrets of Warging / Skinchanging that it took Varamyr a lifetime to learn - Jon will probably hear the word 'abomination' in the back of his mind from this point forward.

After Jon comes by this knowledge, I believe that he will start collecting skins much like Varamyr did. I also believe that Hodor will be Jon's first human skin to take. GRRM has prepared Hodor as a vessel for Jon for a long time. 'No One is Stronger than Hodor, No One'. Hodor has also been training with a heavy tourney sword, creating muscle memory that will come in handy. Considering all of Hodor's exercise carrying Bran, I would imagine that he will be a fighting machine. Not to mention the fact that Bran has prepared him to accept another consciousness.

Eventually Jon will make it to the Heart of Winter & return to tell the tale.

By the time that Jon gets back to the wall, back to his old body, he will be Very different from the Jon we know now He will have 'walked some dark roads' as GRRM has said Jon will do, and he will probably have more dark roads that he is yet to walk. I doubt the vows will mean much to Jon after all the character development that he will undergo, but he will be free of the vow if his body died & was brought back to life. Another possibility is that the Watch may have been decimated or possibly disbanded by the time he returns - your guess is as good as mine...

.

[cealicu_ca]

^^ would like to see this. maybe jon will get his body back once the wall falls...

[addicted to snow]

Its something we've discussed quite a lot in relatively recent heretical history, but I think you may have been away.

Basically, for all her yearning to sit on the Iron Throne of a country she has never seen and knows nothing about, Dany's story arc is concerned with what's going down out east and while Jon is getting drawn into and confronting the Ice, Dany and her dragons are about Fire. In theory they could well meet, in battle or otherwise, but that seems something of a cliche and what we've talked about is the continuance of their arcs in parallel.

Valyria has figured as prominently in the story as the Land of Always Winter and there is a feeling that just as Jon must go north into the Land of Always Winter, so Dany must go back to Valyria, where the Targaryens came from. Symetry aside there are a few pointers to this; in Volantis not only are Vogarro's missus and the other slaves looking to her coming, but Master Benero and the Red Lot are likewise expecting her, not to confront some nameless horror in the frozen north but to deal with the Old Blood of Valyria forted up behind the Black Walls.

The Azor Ahai prophecy is also relevant here, in that not only was Dany born on Dragonstone, but the Smoking Sea of Valyria also gives us the smoke and salt, while we've also discussed how the darkness might be metaphorical rather than literal; the darkness of the Valyrian Empire rather than the Long Night.

And finally there's also another clue; when they are taking their leave of each other on the Wall, Jon tells Tyrion that his uncle is lost out there and that he and Ghost will go to find him. Tyrion also has a favourite uncle, Gerion, lost in the Smoking Sea of Valyria...

No harm in discussing it over again

I think you are right, Jon will almost certainly deal with Winter in the upcoming book & soon enough Dany, Tyrion & Friends will sort fire out in the Smoking Sea.

After these 'forces' have been set right, I look for Jon to return South on a killing spree, while Dany & Friends will continue on to Westeros to play the game of thrones.

[alienarea]

Snip

After these 'forces' have been set right, I look for Jon to return South on a killing spree, while Dany & Friends will continue on to Westeros to play the game of thrones.

Only one force there is. Little green man in Greywater Watch sorting it out will be.

[wolfmaid7]

In the 3rd Seasom of the HBO Adaptation of ASOIAF, Jojen made an interesting comment while hanging out in the Night Fort's Kitchen. He told Sam that all the Kings & all the armys of Westeros could not stop the Others (Not a 100% accurate quote). If we assume that Jojen was correct, then how is it that the Others were defeated during the Long Night?

- Were ther Others defeated?

- Or did they get what they were after & retreat of their own accord?

- Or did the Last Hero make it to the Heart of Winter & negociate some sort of deal? If so, will Val guide Jon to the Heart of Winter to strike a similiar deal? & which body will Jon be traveling in?

There is plenty of foreshadowing that Val & Ghost will become close companions in the Winds of Winter. Hopefully, Jon can find a way to keep from loosing himself inside of Ghost before it is too late. I would imagine that Ghost's 'effect' will dramatically change Jon's personality - and not for the better in many regards.

Thoughts?

My theory in this starts out very different, I'll mention this only as its at the core of my theory. Lumping and classifying things has always been a human trait we look for commonality it makes things easier and I think the same thing happened during the time of the Children and men. I mean the classifying the Wights and Popsicles as "Others" because it lumps two beings that may have a different relationship than was first believed.

Now I don't believe Men won I believe the Popsicles led the Wights away be it because they were summoned/pact/ inert natural predisposition I think they Popsicles were responsible for removing the Wights.

I believe because of the conflict between men and the COTF the children didn't tell Men "everything" about the land and thus when the cold comes so do the blue eyes. However I think The LH pulled an unnecessary Hail Mary but for the COTF men were vulnerable enough to cause a ceasefire.But it was done believing the COTF had a certain power they didn't.

It would be in their best interest to make men think they had something to do with Popsicles even though they didn't, Popsicles come with the cold and clean up after it then their gone. That's why Popsicles didn't come in force when the Andals came because it wasn't their time.

Jon I think will find out a lot in Ghost body and what he does will be responsible for his choice and make him look more like the enemy to men .However I believe if anything Val and the Wildlings will take charge over his body.

[GoldenVale]

Its something we've discussed quite a lot in relatively recent heretical history, but I think you may have been away.

Basically, for all her yearning to sit on the Iron Throne of a country she has never seen and knows nothing about, Dany's story arc is concerned with what's going down out east and while Jon is getting drawn into and confronting the Ice, Dany and her dragons are about Fire. In theory they could well meet, in battle or otherwise, but that seems something of a cliche and what we've talked about is the continuance of their arcs in parallel.

Valyria has figured as prominently in the story as the Land of Always Winter and there is a feeling that just as Jon must go north into the Land of Always Winter, so Dany must go back to Valyria, where the Targaryens came from. Symetry aside there are a few pointers to this; in Volantis not only are Vogarro's missus and the other slaves looking to her coming, but Master Benero and the Red Lot are likewise expecting her, not to confront some nameless horror in the frozen north but to deal with the Old Blood of Valyria forted up behind the Black Walls.

The Azor Ahai prophecy is also relevant here, in that not only was Dany born on Dragonstone, but the Smoking Sea of Valyria also gives us the smoke and salt, while we've also discussed how the darkness might be metaphorical rather than literal; the darkness of the Valyrian Empire rather than the Long Night.

And finally there's also another clue; when they are taking their leave of each other on the Wall, Jon tells Tyrion that his uncle is lost out there and that he and Ghost will go to find him. Tyrion also has a favourite uncle, Gerion, lost in the Smoking Sea of Valyria...

No harm in discussing it over again

Has there been any speculation on the previous Heresy threads on the cause of the Doom?

I've toyed with the idea that the same magic the Children used to cause the Hammer had a ripple effect that caused the Doom and that timeline separating the two is much closer than previously stated.

[Black Crow]

Has there been any speculation on the previous Heresy threads on the cause of the Doom?

I've toyed with the idea that the same magic the Children used to cause the Hammer had a ripple effect that caused the Doom and that timeline separating the two is much closer than previously stated.

I think its something that would bear further discussion, because at the present time there seems to be nothing else to tie into it. It appears to be well documented as occurring 400 years ago which would rule out any immediate link to the Long Night. Similarly we have had an idea in the past that the Nights King business might be far more recent than the legend of his being the 13th Lord Commander, but even so...

All that we can really say with any confidence is that the Targaryens got out of Dodge just before it happened and that while this is attributed to Danaerys the Dreamer reading the right tea-leaves, there may be some significance to the fact that the Targaryens have dragon blood and could ride the beasties by bonding, other Valyrians appear to have required magic and other aids.

[Black Crow]

There is another odd little thought that occurs to me which I'd prefer to discuss separately as its rather more speculative in nature.

According to Old Nan's story, the Nights King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and by implication goes way back to the recent aftermath of the Long Night and the legendary building of the Wall 8,000 years ago. In general terms we tend to be wary of this attribution since its a very long time ago and there's a suspicious degree of alliteration between his reputedly being the 13th Lord Commander and his ruling for 13 years.

We've also in times past noted the frequency with which some events are said to have occurred 1,000 years ago. We needn't take this too literally of course since its probably just a shorthand for time immemorial or at least a very long ago. However, what has been speculated, given that King Sherrit called down his curse on the Andals from the Nightfort, is that his story is relatively recent and tied up with a pact with the Andals which left a Stark in Winterfell and Moat Caillin abandoned.

We know there's something dodgy about that list of Lord Commanders and there are suspicions that the older names are the figment of a scribe's imagination, but what if the reality was that the Nights King was indeed the 13th Lord Commander of an institution which only goes back a 1000 years or so and that after he was betrayed by his brother and his name (Sherrit Stark?) erased from the records, the "long" list was compiled to hide the fact?

The point being that the further forward in time we bring this, the closer we might be to finding a possible link to the Doom if it was indeed a part of the conflict between Ice and Fire.

[addicted to snow]

Now I don't believe Men won I believe the Popsicles led the Wights away be it because they were summoned/pact/ inert natural predisposition I think they Popsicles were responsible for removing the Wights.

Would the Others have removed the Weights? or would they have simply dropped them like they were hot? (left them where ever they were)?

I believe because of the conflict between men and the COTF the children didn't tell Men "everything" about the land and thus when the cold comes so do the blue eyes. However I think The LH pulled an unnecessary Hail Mary but for the COTF men were vulnerable enough to cause a ceasefire.But it was done believing the COTF had a certain power they didn't.

It would be in their best interest to make men think they had something to do with Popsicles even though they didn't, Popsicles come with the cold and clean up after it then their gone. That's why Popsicles didn't come in force when the Andals came because it wasn't their time.

If this were the case & the COTF tricked the humans into thinking they were in league with the Others, then it didn't get put into any tales & man seems to have totally forgotten about this deception. No one suspects the COTF this time around - That I know of anyway...

Jon I think will find out a lot in Ghost body and what he does will be responsible for his choice and make him look more like the enemy to men .However I believe if anything Val and the Wildlings will take charge over his body.

I agree, Ghost will have a significant effect on Jon's personality & the character of Jon as a whole... I think that Jon will not necessarily 'look' like the enemy to men, rather I think that he will be the enemy to a great number of men. I think that Jon will be very rash, savage, merciless, and vengeful just to name a few traits. Jon will also be the most powerful Warg in Westeros & probably lead a army that is bound to him in exactly the same manner that Varamyr once bound his skins to do his will - which is more than likely the same way that the Night's King bound the members of the Watch to his will (not some strange or dark sorcery).

Regarding Jon's Body... Don't you think that it is neccessary for his body to be in the ice cells as to prevent Jon's consciousness from being able to reach it? I think this is the very specific plot device that GRRM discussed that has to do with the Wall's Wards... There sure are a lot of hints & foreshadowing that Val will travel North with ghost (Jon), this would make it very difficult her to take charge of Jon's body. I think that his body will be in a state just like Khal Drogo's body was before Dany smothered it - It will be in a vegetable-like state - a hollow shell, not unlike the Black Crow's Sense of Humor.... Relax, Relax, I'm only jesting with you...

[avernite]

There is another odd little thought that occurs to me which I'd prefer to discuss separately as its rather more speculative in nature.

According to Old Nan's story, the Nights King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and by implication goes way back to the recent aftermath of the Long Night and the legendary building of the Wall 8,000 years ago. In general terms we tend to be wary of this attribution since its a very long time ago and there's a suspicious degree of alliteration between his reputedly being the 13th Lord Commander and his ruling for 13 years.

We've also in times past noted the frequency with which some events are said to have occurred 1,000 years ago. We needn't take this too literally of course since its probably just a shorthand for time immemorial or at least a very long ago. However, what has been speculated, given that King Sherrit called down his curse on the Andals from the Nightfort, is that his story is relatively recent and tied up with a pact with the Andals which left a Stark in Winterfell and Moat Caillin abandoned.

We know there's something dodgy about that list of Lord Commanders and there are suspicions that the older names are the figment of a scribe's imagination, but what if the reality was that the Nights King was indeed the 13th Lord Commander of an institution which only goes back a 1000 years or so and that after he was betrayed by his brother and his name (Sherrit Stark?) erased from the records, the "long" list was compiled to hide the fact?

The point being that the further forward in time we bring this, the closer we might be to finding a possible link to the Doom if it was indeed a part of the conflict between Ice and Fire.

While I will grant halvings and even quarterings of timelines, this seems a bit too far; we know the Andals were in place, with writing, before Aegon. Not by how much, but southern Westeros seems to have been properly Andalised (except for the Brackens/Blackwoods type of cases), and the Rhoynar apparently invaded after that. To posit any 'far before the Andals' occurance to have actually happened 'after the Andals started writing it down' seems a bit of a stretch.

So, in my view we have decent times as:

Far before Andal conquest (Long Night, Hammer of Dorne, Hammer to the Neck, Pact, Nights King)

Andal invasion (rather legendary, at least the whole story about the Arryns in the vale)

Proper written history begins (I think the Rhoynar invasion fits here, but not sure)

Aegon's conquest & everything after (dates probably fairly accurate, reported deeds less so)

Now

Years of anything before written history begins are obviously vague, but I think these groups still contain the events that fit into them.

[#Fire and Blood]

The appendix to Dance says explicitly that Quaithe is "a masked shadowbinder from Asshai."

Yes but there have been many times that the appendix gives us false inforamation based on what the reader has heard in the books or not. For example, in GOT it is stated that Joffrey, Marcella, and Tommen are all Baratheons when we know this not to be the case. That is the most obvious one I remember off of the top of my head but there are several other. Also, Catelynn Stark listed as deceased.

[Joe Pine]

Yes but there have been many times that the appendix gives us false inforamation based on what the reader has heard in the books or not. For example, in GOT it is stated that Joffrey, Marcella, and Tommen are all Baratheons when we know this not to be the case. That is the most obvious one I remember off of the top of my head but there are several other. Also, Catelynn Stark listed as deceased.

I guess you have to be dead in order to then be 'undead'

I take your point on the appendix, it's useful at times, but certainly I wouldn't think Mr Martin intends each of them to be treated as definitive.

[wolfmaid7]

Would the Others have removed the Weights? or would they have simply dropped them like they were hot? (left them where ever they were)?

If this were the case & the COTF tricked the humans into thinking they were in league with the Others, then it didn't get put into any tales & man seems to have totally forgotten about this deception. No one suspects the COTF this time around - That I know of anyway...

I agree, Ghost will have a significant effect on Jon's personality & the character of Jon as a whole... I think that Jon will not necessarily 'look' like the enemy to men, rather I think that he will be the enemy to a great number of men. I think that Jon will be very rash, savage, merciless, and vengeful just to name a few traits. Jon will also be the most powerful Warg in Westeros & probably lead a army that is bound to him in exactly the same manner that Varamyr once bound his skins to do his will - which is more than likely the same way that the Night's King bound the members of the Watch to his will (not some strange or dark sorcery).

Regarding Jon's Body... Don't you think that it is neccessary for his body to be in the ice cells as to prevent Jon's consciousness from being able to reach it? I think this is the very specific plot device that GRRM discussed that has to do with the Wall's Wards... There sure are a lot of hints & foreshadowing that Val will travel North with ghost (Jon), this would make it very difficult her to take charge of Jon's body. I think that his body will be in a state just like Khal Drogo's body was before Dany smothered it - It will be in a vegetable-like state - a hollow shell, not unlike the Black Crow's Sense of Humor.... Relax, Relax, I'm only jesting with you...

To the first point, I don't think Popsicles would have just dropped them as after the thaw their would have certainly been record of " the great burial or burning" or surely we would have heard of the "grand stink" seeing as so many people died.so they had to have gone with them.

You misunderstand me I'm not saying the COTF tricked Men. I'm saying they intentionally withheld information about Popsicles which is different to tricking or lying . I believe the COTF knows Popsees come in a cycle of X years and they didnt tell men and that was strategic . In such a bind who would men turn too ?

Even now the fact that they've said nothing means its not about defeating Popsees.

As to Jon's body I was thinking about plot devices I'm thinking from the characters point of view . Would someone put him in ice cells, would someone suggest he be burnt, what would the person in charge want to do , will it be popular. Those are all viable options and some other variable could be introduced

[Joe Pine]

There is another odd little thought that occurs to me which I'd prefer to discuss separately as its rather more speculative in nature.

According to Old Nan's story, the Nights King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and by implication goes way back to the recent aftermath of the Long Night and the legendary building of the Wall 8,000 years ago. In general terms we tend to be wary of this attribution since its a very long time ago and there's a suspicious degree of alliteration between his reputedly being the 13th Lord Commander and his ruling for 13 years.

We've also in times past noted the frequency with which some events are said to have occurred 1,000 years ago. We needn't take this too literally of course since its probably just a shorthand for time immemorial or at least a very long ago. However, what has been speculated, given that King Sherrit called down his curse on the Andals from the Nightfort, is that his story is relatively recent and tied up with a pact with the Andals which left a Stark in Winterfell and Moat Caillin abandoned.

We know there's something dodgy about that list of Lord Commanders and there are suspicions that the older names are the figment of a scribe's imagination, but what if the reality was that the Nights King was indeed the 13th Lord Commander of an institution which only goes back a 1000 years or so and that after he was betrayed by his brother and his name (Sherrit Stark?) erased from the records, the "long" list was compiled to hide the fact?

The point being that the further forward in time we bring this, the closer we might be to finding a possible link to the Doom if it was indeed a part of the conflict between Ice and Fire.

Seems fair, but I think previously there was a discussion on the library of the Nights Watch at Castle Black, the rarities that Tyrion finds on his visit there. Sam's trawl for maps/plans for Mormont seems to indicate it was chaotic despite Maester Aemon's time on the wall and despite him having help in Clydas and Chett.

I think there's a disconnect with the books Aemon wants taken with him to oldtown and obviously that becomes Marwyn's reading room on the Cinnamon Wind.

Then there's Sam looking at the history of the Night's Watch, obviously he didn't get much time to read over it or look at it in any detail. Maybe that's the intention of whoever invented it, possibly the history is deliberately blurred by Maester after Maester could an element of the 'Grey Rat conspiracy' branch out to the Nights Watch and burying the truth of their past?

[King Tyrion VIII]

Its something we've discussed quite a lot in relatively recent heretical history, but I think you may have been away.

Basically, for all her yearning to sit on the Iron Throne of a country she has never seen and knows nothing about, Dany's story arc is concerned with what's going down out east and while Jon is getting drawn into and confronting the Ice, Dany and her dragons are about Fire. In theory they could well meet, in battle or otherwise, but that seems something of a cliche and what we've talked about is the continuance of their arcs in parallel.

Valyria has figured as prominently in the story as the Land of Always Winter and there is a feeling that just as Jon must go north into the Land of Always Winter, so Dany must go back to Valyria, where the Targaryens came from. Symetry aside there are a few pointers to this; in Volantis not only are Vogarro's missus and the other slaves looking to her coming, but Master Benero and the Red Lot are likewise expecting her, not to confront some nameless horror in the frozen north but to deal with the Old Blood of Valyria forted up behind the Black Walls.

The Azor Ahai prophecy is also relevant here, in that not only was Dany born on Dragonstone, but the Smoking Sea of Valyria also gives us the smoke and salt, while we've also discussed how the darkness might be metaphorical rather than literal; the darkness of the Valyrian Empire rather than the Long Night.

And finally there's also another clue; when they are taking their leave of each other on the Wall, Jon tells Tyrion that his uncle is lost out there and that he and Ghost will go to find him. Tyrion also has a favourite uncle, Gerion, lost in the Smoking Sea of Valyria...

No harm in discussing it over again

I was here :) I remember first reading your posts on it I believe in the late 40s/early 50s. I remember thinking how amazing of an idea it was. IMO its a big breakthrough. Why would Martin give us the info he did in ADWD about Volantis if he isnt going to show what happens?

Its a theory Ive always wanted to take to the main board to see what they think about it. But i think for it to convince anyone it probably needs to be fleshed out with more detail and supporting evidence. I cant remember all of what was said but you did say its no problem discussing it again :)

[#Fire and Blood]

To the first point, I don't think Popsicles would have just dropped them as after the thaw their would have certainly been record of " the great burial or burning" or surely we would have heard of the "grand stink" seeing as so many people died.so they had to have gone with them.

You misunderstand me I'm not saying the COTF tricked Men. I'm saying they intentionally withheld information about Popsicles which is different to tricking or lying . I believe the COTF knows Popsees come in a cycle of X years and they didnt tell men and that was strategic . In such a bind who would men turn too ?

Even now the fact that they've said nothing means its not about defeating Popsees.

As to Jon's body I was thinking about plot devices I'm thinking from the characters point of view . Would someone put him in ice cells, would someone suggest he be burnt, what would the person in charge want to do , will it be popular. Those are all viable options and some other variable could be introduced

There has to be motivation for the Popsicles to come down though, It may be a seasonal/time related thing, but there is something they are trying to do I would think. Of course I do see heavy possible connections with the COTF, but they themselves seem to be concious of something as well.

[#Fire and Blood]

I recently read the last Bran chapter again in ADWD. I know it has probably been mentioned before, but Bloodraven talks alot about embracing the darkness to Bran. He even tells him that it will be like mothers milk to him. This is a clear connection to what Mels has been saying all along about the great other and darkness being so terrible. The real question is, do either of these "religions" (Ice old gods, and Fire Rhollor) really have anything in them that will benefit humans?

Another random thought....Leaf says specifically that Bloodraven and Bran are there to help humanity. She says that after the bit about their race dying off, with the unicorns, direwolves, etc. Another question is, does Bloodraven think he is doing what he is doing for humanity, or has his mind been warped or changed in such a way that what they are doing will ulitimatly hurt it?

If we keep going down the path we are going in these books, it seems to me that regardless of what happens, GRRM is trying to say something about our world. Antiquate magic with our current technological advances and there are a lot of simialrities. Similar things like, magic has many seemingly positive benefits (bringing people back to life, healing wounds that might kill somebody otherwise, etc). Technology also gives us things like better labor productivity, better sources for food, etc. At the end of the day, both of these have big trade offs or sacrifices that need to be made to use them. Like with machines in a car factory taking away many good paying jobs.

sorry that was rather random, but I love this thread as it seems to have the best Ice and Fire thinkers on it!

*Edit for clarity*

[wolfmaid7]

There has to be motivation for the Popsicles to come down though, It may be a seasonal/time related thing, but there is something they are trying to do I would think. Of course I do see heavy possible connections with the COTF, but they themselves seem to be concious of something as well.

I had postulated before that the motivation for Popsicles coming down is " the cold" it is the entity that raises the Wights and it is it they are following and it is moving south out of the north .it is the cyclical event that comes over the land every so X yrs and the WW is to it as the pilot fish is to a Shark .