Heresy 71

[GoldenVale]

What's the deal with Sam's line in ADWDs when he says that Gilly is holding Mance's Son & Craster's Grandson (while in route to Old Town)?

Do we know if this is a typo or not? or is Sam Drunk? I remember him getting drunk at some point, drinking rum on the boat...

Its been discussed in the past. Sam is sober at the time but it doesn't seem to make much sense as written. I think its just a reference to Gilly suckling both Craster's grandson (who is also of course his son) on one teat, and Mance's son on the other.

I'll need to check but I don't think so. However reading it as she is feeding both Craster's grandson and Mance's son is I think the only way to make sense of it.

I think it was she only fed her own on one and Mance's on the other? That is what I remember thinking, but that wouldn't make much sense...it would lead to very different sizes on the chest and I imagine great pain? But I am not a woman and will never have to experience that. Thank god! LOL

Here's the actual quote (from Feast For Crows Sam IV). For some context Sam and Gilly are talking about the situation they are in and how they got there (chiefly the switcheroo, why it was necessary, and master Aemon's recent passing etc.) and Gilly says:

“The night before he [Mance] died, he asked if he might hold the babe,” Gilly went on. “I was afraid he might drop him, but he never did. He rocked

him and hummed a song for him, and Dalla’s boy reached up and touched his face. The way he pulled his lip I thought he might be hurting him, but it only made the old man laugh.” She stroked Sam’s hand. “We could name the little one Maester, if you like. When he’s old enough,

not now. We could.”

“Maester is not a name. You could call him Aemon, though.”

Gilly thought about that. “Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong.”

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior’s name. The boy was Mance Rayder’s son and Craster’s grandson, after all. He had none

of Sam’s craven blood. “Yes. Call him that.”

Make of it what you will, but I will say that it is oddly worded. Not saying it means anything but it certainly makes you look twice.

Was it Euron who came into his room at night or Urri?

Feast for Crows - The Prophet

The sound came softly, the scream of a rusted hinge "Urri," he muttered and woke, fearful. There is no door here, no hinge, no Urri.

He had a terrible guilt over Urri losing half his hand playing the finger game together. It's after Urri's death that Balon returns with Euron and Victarion. Aeron describes himself as the weakest of the brothers and despised and ridiculed by Balon, whom he admires for all his iron born virtues. Now he drowns little boys and gives them the kiss of life. I'm not sure what this says about Aeron. He says it's better to be despised by Balon than loved by Euron. It leads to all kinds of speculation about Euron and Aeron. But I'm not sure it's the right interpretation. Aeron became a fool and a sot, a sinner as he describes himself and eventually imprisoned in the cells at Casterly Rock.

There is a suggestion that Euron did something to Aeron that frightened the bejeezus out of him so that he became a fanatic of the drowned god and this gives him protection from Euron. He says "I have seen the storm, and it's name is Euron Crow's Eye." I'm not sure if Euron attempted to open Aeron's mind and remove the veil from his eyes in the same way that he offers to do so with Victarion.

I wonder if Euron has skinchanging abilities and has attempted to enter Aeron's mind. In DwD, Varamyr describes the beasts fighting his attempts to approriate their bodies and Thistle screaming as he enters her body, twisting, violently shrieking. If Euron did the same thing, it would certainly be a violation.

And I wonder if Euron is wholly Euron all of the time.

"The Crow's Eye stopped atop the steps, at the doors of the Grey King's Hall, and turned his smiling eye upon the captains and the the kings, but Aeron could feel his other eye as well, the one that he kept hidden."

.

It's been speculated on threads dedicated to this subject that Euron molested Aeron and that's why he's so fearful around him. With the memory of someone coming into his room tat night, the better to be despised by Balon than "loved" by Euron and Euron's personality and history we know of (i.e Victarion's wife) it does certainly fit.

Although I admit your theory is interesting and not at all impossible.

Is the curse on the Andals cast by an Old Stark the curse of the Wights? Makes sense to me. Andals are invading, he casts a spell that will release the Wights if they are ever deposed again. Maybe something they learned to do from the COTF after the initial long night ended. It could be backed up by the Theories of interbreeding between the Starks and the COTF and how they hold the same gods, and have the same abilities (skinchanging, greenseeing, etc)

That's quite a curse though. And quite the screw up. I'd find it hard to believe that a not too long after the Long Night that someone would try and unleash the very forces that they supposedly just barely stopped. At least not deliberately. Perhaps he tried to use the magic of the Children (with their help?) and just unwittingly unleashed them but I think we'd hear more about this than the ambiguous story Bran recalls.

Considering this was supposedly done from the ever spooky Nightfort. I think maybe the Nightfort, being the first castle raised at the Wall IIRC, was some sort of hub of Children magic, where a lot of magic is probably still let. Much more than the Black Gate at least.

[Yield.]

From a Thermodynamic Standpoint "Cold" is rather difficult to define. Cold is the absence or or a decreased amount of enthalpy or heat within a given substance (solid, liquid, or gas - air). Absolute Zero (-270 degrees C) is the total absence of enthalpy / heat.

It is not unusual for extreme cold temperatures to kill humans & cold temperatures have often been described as being painful. There is nothing unusual regarding the cold temperatures in ASOIAF. Cold Temperatures are not responsible for bringing the Weights.

I agree people die of hypothermia all the time. Including in ASoIaF. Tormund says as much. He burns those that die that way so that they will not rise.

There have been a thousand winters since the last long night, yet not a single Weight has ever been reported, despite lots of 'cold'.

The sentient Cold I speak of seems to have woken up not so long ago. Maybe with the resurfacing of dragons? Don't know.

The Others & the Weights were introduced in the same prologue chapter, so I think it is likely that they are associated with one another...

And so was the cold. It has been in every description from the characters involved in an encounter with both the Popsicles and the wights. I too think there is an association between the three, just haven't quite worked it out yet.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Thanks for the quote GoldenVale.

It seems to be outright stating that Craster is Mance's father.

Or Mance is the father and Craster is the grandfather because Gilly is raising the babe.

[Yield.]

Could 'The Cold' be whipping up that storm over the Wolfswood? And how did it get through the wall?

Hmm.

First, we have seen it come through the wall already with the wights. It might have come with the unintended invitation of the NW to the wights by bringing them beyond the wall, since they seem to be linked together. Second, it receeded after the attack. Third, I don't think the Cold could have done that storm 'cause it seems to everyone that it is normal. And finally there are no WW or wights in evidence there.

Your question, however, sparked an idea. What if the reason for the hot water springs being run through the walls of WF are in some way a safe guard against the Cold not just the cold? That is assuming there are not spells on the walls already in place.

Just a random thought, probably wrong :)

[Black Crow]

Another page and a half while I sleep, soon be time to ready up the OP for Heresy 72...

Anyway, thanks to LynnS for dredging up the passage about Euron Crows Eye. This was the other piece of evidence beyond his dream of flying that supports the theory he too has had a visit from the Three-Eyed Crow - but didn't accept his kind invitation to come and sit on a weirwood chair.

On the question of the cold originating in Winterfell, Redriver was being a touch ironic as he has been running a splendid thread on the subject simply headed Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

Is the curse on the Andals cast by an Old Stark the curse of the Wights? Makes sense to me. Andals are invading, he casts a spell that will release the Wights if they are ever deposed again. Maybe something they learned to do from the COTF after the initial long night ended. It could be backed up by the Theories of interbreeding between the Starks and the COTF and how they hold the same gods, and have the same abilities (skinchanging, greenseeing, etc)

Probably not, but it may have been the white walkers.

Consider it this way. King Sherrit calls down his curse on the Andals from the Nightfort. That contradicts everything we've been told about the Nights Watch. He's a king at the Nightfort and he's interfering in the affairs of the realm (of men) by attacking the Andals. This is why some of us think he's Sherrit Stark and that he's the Nights King.

We also have that story about the causeway by Moat Caillin being protected by "cold Northern ghosts".

The theory being that Sherrit summoned the blue-eyed lot to help fight off the Andals. His brother in Winterfell thought this too high a price and overthrew him. Afterwards the dodgy list of Lord Commanders was compiled to hide the fact he'd ever existed and pretend that the whole business of communing with the Others never happened.

[Black Crow]

Just a quickie on the resurrection business.

In the HBO show Sam says quite explicitly that the white walkers raise the dead by touching them. Ordinarily of course we can't take the show as canon, but that particular episode was written by GRRM himself.

[alienarea]

Well, I don't think Mance has ever been looking for a horn.

I'm rather inclined to agree with you there, or if he was it had nothing to do with bringing the Wall down.

So what was he looking for? They were digging for something. Perhaps he dug with the intention of releasing "the shades"? As a sort of pseudo false-flag maneuver? If the danger of the Wights/WWs is increased it'd cement his leadership even more and incense the Wildlings to do whatever it took to win the fight to go South, perhaps that's what he wanted?

I speculate he was looking for something special in someone's bones. "The bones remember."

Is she holding both at the same time? I dont remember what point in the book this is.

What would the real purpose of the horn be?

Search me, I'm just pointing out that he has no need of a device to get his people through or over the Wall, so what is he looking for.

Bones remember...is this why Rattleshirt wears all those bones?

The alternative being Mance is Craster's son. But i dont think he is that much older than Mance.

Here's the actual quote (from Feast For Crows Sam IV). For some context Sam and Gilly are talking about the situation they are in and how they got there (chiefly the switcheroo, why it was necessary, and master Aemon's recent passing etc.) and Gilly says:

“The night before he [Mance] died, he asked if he might hold the babe,” Gilly went on. “I was afraid he might drop him, but he never did. He rocked

him and hummed a song for him, and Dalla’s boy reached up and touched his face. The way he pulled his lip I thought he might be hurting him, but it only made the old man laugh.” She stroked Sam’s hand. “We could name the little one Maester, if you like. When he’s old enough,

not now. We could.”

“Maester is not a name. You could call him Aemon, though.”

Gilly thought about that. “Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong.”

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior’s name. The boy was Mance Rayder’s son and Craster’s grandson, after all. He had none

of Sam’s craven blood. “Yes. Call him that.”

Make of it what you will, but I will say that it is oddly worded. Not saying it means anything but it certainly makes you look twice.

Snip

I just thought that this fits together nicely. We have speculated about maternal lineage quite a few times. Now this quote "The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's Grandson, after all." is either mixing maternal and paternal lineage, which doesn't make sense to me (*), or is all confirming the paternal lineage. Then Craster is Mance's father, and Mance probably bears the same heavy curse. Which might be a good reason to open those graves and search for something to stop it, especially when he has learned about Dalla's pregnancy. And also adding another reason for moving the wildlings south of the wall. The blue eyed brothers can't cross it to collect the sons. And I guess that winged helmet Mance wears fits into this as well.

(*) Now I why do I think that mixing maternal and paternal lineage in that scene doesn't make sense? First, Craster. His whole "business" is about the paternal lineage, he never cares about his daughters, they are just means of production. Second, Mance. We also don't learn anything special about his mother (IIRC she was a wildling, that could fit with her being Craster's first wife), but his father was a man of the night watch.

Remember that I asked if we have any indication about Craster's age a few threads ago? We don't. So he might be much older, and it's part of the curse.

Wasn't it said that the Night King was sacrificing to the Others? That is exactly what Craster does, isn't it?

Mance Rayder is Craster's son, and Craster is a descendant of the Night King.

PS: One additional thought. Following this line of thought maybe Mance is looking for the bones of the Night King. Which, since he is a Stark, have to be properly buried in Winterfell to stop the curse. And he found the bones and hid them in plain sight - Rattleshirt. Mance leaves the wall glamoured as Rattleshirt, so the Night King's bones are coming home. Winter is coming, and the snowstorm is released from Winterfell ...

[King Tyrion VIII]

I seem to remember Bran Vras speculate that the cold was radiating from Winterfell itself.

But what would cause that?

Nope. It was Redriver :P

[Mother Other]

I just thought that this fits together nicely. We have speculated about maternal lineage quite a few times. Now this quote "The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's Grandson, after all." is either mixing maternal and paternal lineage, which doesn't make sense to me (*), or is all confirming the paternal lineage. Then Craster is Mance's father, and Mance probably bears the same heavy curse. Which might be a good reason to open those graves and search for something to stop it, especially when he has learned about Dalla's pregnancy. And also adding another reason for moving the wildlings south of the wall. The blue eyed brothers can't cross it to collect the sons. And I guess that winged helmet Mance wears fits into this as well.

(*) Now I why do I think that mixing maternal and paternal lineage in that scene doesn't make sense? First, Craster. His whole "business" is about the paternal lineage, he never cares about his daughters, they are just means of production. Second, Mance. We also don't learn anything special about his mother (IIRC she was a wildling, that could fit with her being Craster's first wife), but his father was a man of the night watch.

Remember that I asked if we have any indication about Craster's age a few threads ago? We don't. So he might be much older, and it's part of the curse.

Wasn't it said that the Night King was sacrificing to the Others? That is exactly what Craster does, isn't it?

Mance Rayder is Craster's son, and Craster is a descendant of the Night King.

PS: One additional thought. Following this line of thought maybe Mance is looking for the bones of the Night King. Which, since he is a Stark, have to be properly buried in Winterfell to stop the curse. And he found the bones and hid them in plain sight - Rattleshirt. Mance leaves the wall glamoured as Rattleshirt, so the Night King's bones are coming home. Winter is coming, and the snowstorm is released from Winterfell ...

Nice thoughts, I like it.

[cealicu_ca]

hmmm, wasn't Mance a sworn brother of the Night's Watch (a defector)? I don't understand the how come he might be Craster's son (especially since he seems to like *sacrifice* all his sons... if so then how come Mance is yet alive?).

[wolfmaid7]

Just a quickie on the resurrection business.

In the HBO show Sam says quite explicitly that the white walkers raise the dead by touching them. Ordinarily of course we can't take the show as canon, but that particular episode was written by GRRM himself.

Well I don't think GRRM would stray from what was written in the archive it's part of the myth behind the Popsicles. From the point of view of the Chatacters and there knowledge of Popsees that is true . But it doesn't make it true it makes it a plot device that continually perpetuates the myth rightfully so . It is neccassary for them to believe that Popsees raise them ,it would not be good story if the Popsees weren't the object of their worry.It makes sense for a viewing audience and for what the POV's themselves think is true .

[Black Crow]

hmmm, wasn't Mance a sworn brother of the Night's Watch (a defector)? I don't understand the how come he might be Craster's son (especially since he seems to like *sacrifice* all his sons... if so then how come Mance is yet alive?).

According to Ygritte Craster was supposedly the son of a man of the Nights Watch and a woman from Whitetree, who turned up at the Wall with him but was chased off. This may be true, or his mother may have been doing a Gilly and pretending the father belonged to the Watch in order to escape that "heavy curse".

Mance's origins are even more obscure. He was seemingly taken as child when the Watch caught up with a wildling raiding party, and then raised to serve in the Watch before deserting. The fact that he (alone?) was spared is slightly odd and raises suspicions that he wasn't wildling born, but was being carried or escorted north when the Watch caught up with them.

Taken with his penchant for wearing red and black, there is a strong suspicion that there may be some connection with the War of the Ninepenny KIngs and that at the time of his capture he was fleeing north, after Maelys the Monstrous got his. In other words he may be the last Blackfyre.

[Hughthehand]

The quote is from Sam's PoV, correct? How would Sam have any knowledge of Mance's heritage?

I think this is one place where people are reading into the text too deeply. Gilly is raising the boy, that makes Craster the grandfather. Simple answer for a simple comment.

[GoldenVale]

hmmm, wasn't Mance a sworn brother of the Night's Watch (a defector)? I don't understand the how come he might be Craster's son (especially since he seems to like *sacrifice* all his sons... if so then how come Mance is yet alive?).

According to Ygritte Craster was supposedly the son of a man of the Nights Watch and a woman from Whitetree, who turned up at the Wall with him but was chased off. This may be true, or his mother may have been doing a Gilly and pretending the father belonged to the Watch in order to escape that "heavy curse".

Mance's origins are even more obscure. He was seemingly taken as child when the Watch caught up with a wildling raiding party, and then raised to serve in the Watch before deserting. The fact that he (alone?) was spared is slightly odd and raises suspicions that he wasn't wildling born, but was being carried or escorted north when the Watch caught up with them.

Taken with his penchant for wearing red and black, there is a strong suspicion that there may be some connection with the War of the Ninepenny KIngs and that at the time of his capture he was fleeing north, after Maelys the Monstrous got his. In other words he may be the last Blackfyre.

Well I believe the exact 'story' about Mance's origins (from the Halfhand) is:

"...He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he

was only going home again.”

From Jon VII (Clash of Kings)

To me "taken" here means "taken from the Wildling raiders." Whether they themselves took him isn't clear but Qhorin saying that when Mance deserted he was "only going hie again." , indicates that he was a child of the Wildlings, at least as far as they were concerned.

Halfhand isn't like Smallwood or Marsh in that he just sees them as savages and has a bias towards them so I think we can take this as a serious pint rather than any bias or some such.

I assume by your strong suspicion of the supposed timing with the Ninepenny War, that you mean he's a Blackfyre? Considering he's a child at this time I doubt he was "fleeing" North, at least by himself. You could say he was being smuggled North but I don't know how he'd fall into the hands of the Wildlings then or how he'd know of his supposed heritage after the fact.

I think it's likely just as Qhorin told it, that he's a Wildling bastard.

Is he Craster's bastard? Possibly. IIRC there's nothing that states that Craster has spent his whole life at his keep. It's very likely he grew up around other Wildlings and as such got a Wildling girl pregnant when he was a teenager. We know the Wildlings are pretty liberal when it comes sex. It doesn't explain how Sam would know but it's not impossible.

[JonNonRegis]

Mance's origins are even more obscure. He was seemingly taken as child when the Watch caught up with a wildling raiding party, and then raised to serve in the Watch before deserting. The fact that he (alone?) was spared is slightly odd and raises suspicions that he wasn't wildling born, but was being carried or escorted north when the Watch caught up with them.

It might also be that the Watch doesn't enjoy murdering children, and constantly needs more men.

Taken with his penchant for wearing red and black, there is a strong suspicion that there may be some connection with the War of the Ninepenny KIngs and that at the time of his capture he was fleeing north, after Maelys the Monstrous got his. In other words he may be the last Blackfyre.

This would make Mance roughly as old as Ser Barristan -- sixtysomething.

However, we know Jon remembers meeting Mance at Winterfell some ten years back, at which point Jon thought Mance was "young" -- at least compared to the other black brothers Jon saw.

So it appears that Mance cannot be in his sixties. He would have to be at least twenty years younger than that.

[Lord Ravenstark]

According to Ygritte Craster was supposedly the son of a man of the Nights Watch and a woman from Whitetree, who turned up at the Wall with him but was chased off. This may be true, or his mother may have been doing a Gilly and pretending the father belonged to the Watch in order to escape that "heavy curse".

Mance's origins are even more obscure. He was seemingly taken as child when the Watch caught up with a wildling raiding party, and then raised to serve in the Watch before deserting. The fact that he (alone?) was spared is slightly odd and raises suspicions that he wasn't wildling born, but was being carried or escorted north when the Watch caught up with them.

Taken with his penchant for wearing red and black, there is a strong suspicion that there may be some connection with the War of the Ninepenny KIngs and that at the time of his capture he was fleeing north, after Maelys the Monstrous got his. In other words he may be the last Blackfyre.

And how would Sam know it? If Mance is/was Craster's son why anyone else never thought about it?

[LynnS]

It's been speculated on threads dedicated to this subject that Euron molested Aeron and that's why he's so fearful around him. With the memory of someone coming into his room tat night, the better to be despised by Balon than "loved" by Euron and Euron's personality and history we know of (i.e Victarion's wife) it does certainly fit.

-snip GoldenVale

The only problem that I have with what we know about Euron are the narrators themselves. Euron's reputation precedes him and his legend gets bigger in the telling. Something he fosters to his advantage at the Kingsmoot along with considerable charisma such that even Aeron falls for the sales pitch. He's more Iron Born than the iron born.

[LynnS]

Another page and a half while I sleep, soon be time to ready up the OP for Heresy 72...

Anyway, thanks to LynnS for dredging up the passage about Euron Crows Eye. This was the other piece of evidence beyond his dream of flying that supports the theory he too has had a visit from the Three-Eyed Crow - but didn't accept his kind invitation to come and sit on a weirwood chair.

On the question of the cold originating in Winterfell, Redriver was being a touch ironic as he has been running a splendid thread on the subject simply headed Winterfell.

Where do you think Euron fits into the Morrigan theory? I've started reading from Heresy 20. Is there a synopsis somewhere? I keep diverting to other threads including Redrivers excellent treatment of Winterfell. And coincidently came across a reference to Geryon (Gerion?) in that thread. A great description of "the beast" and suggestions for. Eurytion (Eurytheon), and Orthrus (Sandor,Gregor), the two headed dog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geryon

[#Fire and Blood]

According to Ygritte Craster was supposedly the son of a man of the Nights Watch and a woman from Whitetree, who turned up at the Wall with him but was chased off. This may be true, or his mother may have been doing a Gilly and pretending the father belonged to the Watch in order to escape that "heavy curse".

Mance's origins are even more obscure. He was seemingly taken as child when the Watch caught up with a wildling raiding party, and then raised to serve in the Watch before deserting. The fact that he (alone?) was spared is slightly odd and raises suspicions that he wasn't wildling born, but was being carried or escorted north when the Watch caught up with them.

Taken with his penchant for wearing red and black, there is a strong suspicion that there may be some connection with the War of the Ninepenny KIngs and that at the time of his capture he was fleeing north, after Maelys the Monstrous got his. In other words he may be the last Blackfyre.

How old would that make him though? You are suggesting Mance is a Blackfyre correct?