Heresy 71

[Black Crow]

What's the deal with Sam's line in ADWDs when he says that Gilly is holding Mance's Son & Craster's Grandson (while in route to Old Town)?

Do we know if this is a typo or not? or is Sam Drunk? I remember him getting drunk at some point, drinking rum on the boat...

Its been discussed in the past. Sam is sober at the time but it doesn't seem to make much sense as written. I think its just a reference to Gilly suckling both Craster's grandson (who is also of course his son) on one teat, and Mance's son on the other.

[LynnS]

Yes, that's what he meant. It's the allusion to doors that are hinges to the otherworld and doors without hinges that comes to mind. And unhinged minds actually. Random thoughts.

[alienarea]

Its possible, I suppose, but it depends how old those graves really are. That the wildlings burn their dead is presumed to be a holdover from the Long Night, since there's no indication of it being a recent practice they've suddenly taken up. The problem, from Mance's point of view, might be that the attribution to Joruman might be legendary.

We know of the barrows below the Wall, these might simply be others lost beyond the Wall, with popular (but unfounded) legend attaching Joruman's name to them, just as in our world barrows have been variously assigned as the graves of Grimes (who he?), gog and magog, giants and just about any legendary hero you are to think of. Thus Mance was unsuccessful because the barrows in question were much older than Joruman.

This isn't to say he won't be successful in turning his attention to Winterfell, but as he doesn't need the horn to bring the Wall down and pass his people through to safety, it does once again raise a questionmark as to his real motives.

Well, I don't think Mance has ever been looking for a horn.

[Black Crow]

I'm rather inclined to agree with you there, or if he was it had nothing to do with bringing the Wall down.

[GoldenVale]

So what was he looking for? They were digging for something. Perhaps he dug with the intention of releasing "the shades"? As a sort of pseudo false-flag maneuver? If the danger of the Wights/WWs is increased it'd cement his leadership even more and incense the Wildlings to do whatever it took to win the fight to go South, perhaps that's what he wanted?

[King Tyrion VIII]

On the question of the white walkers being the hired guns from Texas, I would offer comparisons with Gregor Clegane's crew and the Brave Companions. Both are mad, bad and dangerous to know, but ultimately they are or were the tools of Tywin Lannister. Given that there are so few of the white walkers and their consequent reliance on wights, I have difficulty is seeing them as an independent force, but rather as the tools of someone or something else, and as I say the children have both the magic and the motive.

As to whether they are a true "race", I think the answer has to be no. GRRM has described them as a "different kind of life" and questioned whether they have a culture of their own, both of which are consistent with what Gilly's mother and that other woman say about their being Craster's sons, ie; humans transformed by Ice magic, just as Mel and Moqorro are former humans transformed by Fire magic.

And you really believe Leaf?

Do we have a reason not to believe Leaf?

[Black Crow]

Well... its one of these things.

On the one hand we have that clear statement from Gilly's mother and that other woman (perhaps Nella?) that the white walkers are Craster's sons. They have no reason to lie, yet the story is still dismissed in some quarters as unreliable, because the women are clearly ignorant and can't possibly know what they're talking about.

On the other hand we have Leaf, a representative of a race betrayed, persecuted and harried to near destruction by men, assuring Bran that all they want to do is help mankind, honest...

[Joe Pine]

I'm catching up. Wights, White Walkers, 'The Cold' = collectively 'The Others' ?

From reading Bran Vras a while back, they speculate on the crazy winter storm over Stannis and his troops being made by something magical?

Could 'The Cold' be whipping up that storm over the Wolfswood? And how did it get through the wall?

Hmm.

[alienarea]

So what was he looking for? They were digging for something. Perhaps he dug with the intention of releasing "the shades"? As a sort of pseudo false-flag maneuver? If the danger of the Wights/WWs is increased it'd cement his leadership even more and incense the Wildlings to do whatever it took to win the fight to go South, perhaps that's what he wanted?

I speculate he was looking for something special in someone's bones. "The bones remember."

[King Tyrion VIII]

Its been discussed in the past. Sam is sober at the time but it doesn't seem to make much sense as written. I think its just a reference to Gilly suckling both Craster's grandson (who is also of course his son) on one teat, and Mance's son on the other.

Is she holding both at the same time? I dont remember what point in the book this is.

[cealicu_ca]

long time stalker, not that much time to contribute sadly... anyway, on the relation between WW and CotF, I believe it's a precise hint the fact that the only weapons (worldly weapons to put it into perspective) of the CotF is obsidian. And WW are destroyed by obsidian. So this means that either there is a long animosity between CotF and the WW (but the CotF know how to deal with it, by employing obsidian weapons although they seem really capable of using a lot more powerfull weapons -> like bad ass magic) or that the WW are a creation of the CotF (maybe created through that bad ass magic, and the obsidian is the fail safe). Moreover, this whole thing seems like an indigenous population (CotF) lets "nature", ie. WW (imagine a disease, like smallpox or whatever) work against the invaders who are not immune (don't use obsidian blades) to it. Why not? You don't go on breaking the "Pact", and you can faint ignorance. Let the disease (WW) do it's worst on the First Men. It might not be something they control (when it comes, how it spreads) but they sure as hell can profit from it.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Alright then...I'm going to have to get up to date on the Morrigan theory. :laugh: I'll be reading for a while. What I found interesting in the speech was the narrator's voice. Was this really Euron? What was interesting to me was Damphair's comment that there were "no hinges here and no doors", Urri is gone and Euron is back. I can't help thinking of round doors with no hinges and shade of the evening.

Who says Benjen won't make a sudden appearance back at the Wall, now that Jon is incapacitated and everyone has run off to war with Ramsey Bolton...

I thought "no hinges here and no doors" referred Euron going into his room at night when he was little?

[cealicu_ca]

oh, almost forgot. I think it's obvious (to me at least) that the wights are at least a byproduct of the WW. Might not be intentionally, but again, going to the disease example, imagine the WW are the "virus" and the contaminated people are the wights. After all, it really seems like a disease (with an incubation period >LOL<, since they don't come back from the dead in an instant, nor does it seem to be a specific amount of time from their deaths 'till the "resurrection"). Also it would mean that the wights can "act" independently (like the two that were brought beyond the wall) since after the "infection" there is no need for the "central" host to keep contact with the infected subjects. Ok ok, too much illness alreay :-) ETA: As for the guy's (the NW guy turned wight and brought back to the wall) black hands, a more mundane speculation is that his hands suffered cold burns. Remember that the WW shatters Sam's sword (or something like that) by touching it. It turned brittle because of the cold (the cold coming from the WW). So yes, black hands means frozen blood and decay. WW froze his hands, then the guy comes back as a wight.

[King Tyrion VIII]

I'm rather inclined to agree with you there, or if he was it had nothing to do with bringing the Wall down.

What would the real purpose of the horn be?

[Black Crow]

Search me, I'm just pointing out that he has no need of a device to get his people through or over the Wall, so what is he looking for.

[Black Crow]

Is she holding both at the same time? I dont remember what point in the book this is.

I'll need to check but I don't think so. However reading it as she is feeding both Craster's grandson and Mance's son is I think the only way to make sense of it.

[Joe Pine]

Search me, I'm just pointing out that he has no need of a device to get his people through or over the Wall, so what is he looking for.

Lyanna.

[King Tyrion VIII]

I'm catching up. Wights, White Walkers, 'The Cold' = collectively 'The Others' ?

From reading Bran Vras a while back, they speculate on the crazy winter storm over Stannis and his troops being made by something magical?

Could 'The Cold' be whipping up that storm over the Wolfswood? And how did it get through the wall?

Hmm.

I seem to remember Bran Vras speculate that the cold was radiating from Winterfell itself.

But what would cause that?

[King Tyrion VIII]

I speculate he was looking for something special in someone's bones. "The bones remember."

Bones remember...is this why Rattleshirt wears all those bones?

[Joe Pine]

I seem to remember Bran Vras speculate that the cold was radiating from Winterfell itself.

But what would cause that?

I'll take your word on that. I have no idea on the cause, best guess is a stark-less Winterfell maybe?