Heresy 71

[wolfmaid7]

@ Golden Vale :

"Fire and blood" made a statement that Royce rose "immediately after" i was indicating that was not so.

"" Wil l said. "I got close as I dared. There's eight of them, men and women both. No children I could see. They put up a lean-to against the rock. The snow's pret ty well covered it now, but I could still make it out. No fire burning, but th e firepit was still plain as day. No one moving. I watched a long time. No liv ing man ever lay so still." "Did you see any blood?" "Well, no," Will admitted. "Did you see any weapons?" "Some swords, a few bows. One man had an axe. Heavy-looking, double-bladed, a cruel piece of iron. It was on the ground beside him, right by his hand." "Did you make note of the position of the bodies?" Will shrugged. "A couple are sitting up against the rock. Most of them on the ground. Fallen, like." "Or sleeping," Royce suggested. "Fallen," Will insisted. "There's one woman up an ironwood, half-hid in the br anches. A far-eyes." He smiled thinly. "I took care she never saw me. When I g ot closer, I saw that she wasn't moving neither." Despite himself, he shivered

.

Othor's and Jaffar's body rose when it got colder and night fell.So it stand's to reason that like Popsiees they there is an affinity to cold and Darkness.

I never said Popsiees came before AGOT,which is kinda true but again in response to Fire and Blood stating that he believes they came out of the graves the Wildlings were digging.I was merely saying they were seen before the graves were open.

We have reasonable doubt that's it,i can make a better case that it is "the cold" that is raising the dead and that it is a separate entity than the Popsiees.

Your statement about WWs killing people to do this is inaccurate,Othor and Jaffar had axe wounds i believe.Many of the dead Widlings had arrows through their hearts or some had been torn probably by animals.WWs were not responsible for those deaths.

[Black Crow]

Busy night...

OK, rather than dissect every post:

The big problem with the Others/White Walkers business is their numbers or rather their lack of numbers. As readers all we've actually seen are the six who scragged Ser Waymar, and of course Ser Puddles, who may or may not have been one of that six. Otherwise at the present time we've got the white walkers glimpsed on the shore near Eastwatch, number unknown but sounding like not very many, white shadows in the woods, numbers unknown but again unlikely to be more than one or two. And then of course we have some turning up at Craster's place. More than one obviously but no suggestion of a large party.

Historically its the same. Old Nan speaks of them riding dead horses and leading armies of the slain, and afterwords hunting young maidens through the woods as Ramsay Snow/Bolton does - whether in conscious imitation or not.

This does, as I suggested earlier, point to their being something like the hired guns from Texas, brought in to run off the settlers rather than an invading army in their own right. Which in turn fuels the heretical belief that they are not the ultimate enemy but the tools of somebody we've already encountered in the story; and there it comes down to the children who have both the motive and the magic and who so far have been conspicuously silent on the subject.

At this point in time I see no reason not to believe that Craster's boys can raise the dead, just as Thoros and some others of the Red Lot can, but they are probably the users rather than the originators of the magic, and I still think that booby-trapping Ser Waymar's body to react to Will's heat signature shows they have a sense of humour.

As to the shades. That, I think was simply Ygritte expressing her horror of grave robbing, they were looking for the horn as a way to get through the Wall because they were already under pressure from the blue-eyed lot.

[GoldenVale]

Othor's and Jaffar's body rose when it got colder and night fell.So it stand's to reason that like Popsiees they there is an affinity to cold and Darkness.

The fact that the cold is present doesn't necessairly mean that the fact that it's cold is to blame, there hasn't been anyting to tell us which is dominant in the WW/Cold relationship or even is such a dominance exist. For all we know the cold could be an side effect of the agic the WWs use rather than a separate phenomenon.

I'd also like to point out that the Wight hand (Othors) still moves when it is placed in a jar independently of the "cold".

Your statement about WWs killing people to do this is inaccurate,Othor and Jaffar had axe wounds i believe.Many of the dead Widlings had arrows through their hearts or some had been torn probably by animals. WWs were not responsible for those deaths.

I think this is incorrect. As you can see in the excerpts in my previous post the only one described with an axe wound is Jafer. Othor is described as having mortal wounds covering him like "a rash" which could have been made by anything.

Busy night...

OK, rather than dissect every post:

The big problem with the Others/White Walkers business is their numbers or rather their lack of numbers. As readers all we've actually seen are the six who scragged Ser Waymar, and of course Ser Puddles, who may or may not have been one of that six. Otherwise at the present time we've got the white walkers glimpsed on the shore near Eastwatch, number unknown but sounding like not very many, white shadows in the woods, numbers unknown but again unlikely to be more than one or two. And then of course we have some turning up at Craster's place. More than one obviously but no suggestion of a large party.

Historically its the same. Old Nan speaks of them riding dead horses and leading armies of the slain, and afterwords hunting young maidens through the woods as Ramsay Snow/Bolton does - whether in conscious imitation or not.

This does, as I suggested earlier, point to their being something like the hired guns from Texas, brought in to run off the settlers rather than an invading army in their own right. Which in turn fuels the heretical belief that they are not the ultimate enemy but the tools of somebody we've already encountered in the story; and there it comes down to the children who have both the motive and the magic and who so far have been conspicuously silent on the subject.

At this point in time I see no reason not to believe that Craster's boys can raise the dead, just as Thoros and some others of the Red Lot can, but they are probably the users rather than the originators of the magic, and I still think that booby-trapping Ser Waymar's body to react to Will's heat signature shows they have a sense of humour.

As to the shades. That, I think was simply Ygritte expressing her horror of grave robbing, they were looking for the horn as a way to get through the Wall because they were already under pressure from the blue-eyed lot.

Does the fact that they have a sense of humor (and thus a form of sentence) mean that as "hired guns" (if that's what they are) are they being "controlled" or actually hired? You've made it clear you think that they are acting on behalf of the Children of the Forest or at the very least , the COTF are using them to some degree.

My question is how exactly do you think this works. Specifically I mean. Are they being "paid" for their efforts? Are they subservient? Are they working independently (their apparent sentience could make this likely) and just happen to have the same goals as the Children, effectively making them "pardners"?

I'd like some clarity on this theory.

[Black Crow]

Their sense of humour is a reflection of their human origin.

Quick and dirty answer as I'm about to go to work. I believe them to be the servants of the children, recruited (Craster's boys) as required, just as Mel is (or should be) a servant of Fire - and no I don't know who she ultimately serves but perhaps that's to be found in Valyria.

[Capon Breath]

Their sense of humour is a reflection of their human origin.

Quick and dirty answer as I'm about to go to work. I believe them to be the servants of the children, recruited (Craster's boys) as required, just as Mel is (or should be) a servant of Fire - and no I don't know who she ultimately serves but perhaps that's to be found in Valyria.

@BC

My reservation with this view is a couple of things

1 - We see the WW before we find out anything about COTF which makes it difficult for them to be the hired guns of someone we have met before.

2 - Brans Vision of "The heart of Winter" is a pivotal moment in AGOT - theres nothing to suggest COTF can reside there (it can also be argued nothing to suggest they can't I suppose). But to me it seems unlikely what Bran saw were COTF there plotting the downfall of men - if he did I guess he would have had a fairly different reaction to Leaf when he met her?

Whats your interpretation of the Heart of Winter in relation to this scenario?

I'm inclined to think there is more to the WW than meets the eye (eg not simply a mega baddy after the externimation of all human life) but not conviced COTF are their masters.

[Black Crow]

@BC

My reservation with this view is a couple of things

1 - We see the WW before we find out anything about COTF which makes it difficult for them to be the hired guns of someone we have met before.

2 - Brans Vision of "The heart of Winter" is a pivotal moment in AGOT - theres nothing to suggest COTF can reside there (it can also be argued nothing to suggest they can't I suppose). But to me it seems unlikely what Bran saw were COTF there plotting the downfall of men - if he did I guess he would have had a fairly different reaction to Leaf when he met her?

Whats your interpretation of the Heart of Winter in relation to this scenario?

I'm inclined to think there is more to the WW than meets the eye (eg not simply a mega baddy after the externimation of all human life) but not conviced COTF are their masters.

In answer to 1 what I mean is that they will turn out to be working for somebody already encountered

As to 2, my own feeling is that what Bran saw was the future

[addicted to snow]

The Others work for the Starks... It has just been forgotten... "Winter is Coming"...

[addicted to snow]

What's the deal with Sam's line in ADWDs when he says that Gilly is holding Mance's Son & Craster's Grandson (while in route to Old Town)?

Do we know if this is a typo or not? or is Sam Drunk? I remember him getting drunk at some point, drinking rum on the boat...

[Yield.]

1) At this point in time I see no reason not to believe that Craster's boys can raise the dead, 2) just as Thoros and some others of the Red Lot can,3) but they are probably the users rather than the originators of the magic, and 4) I still think that booby-trapping Ser Waymar's body to react to Will's heat signature shows they have a sense of humour.

I split this paragraph into bits because there are several points that I feel can be addressed.

1) I am firmly with wolfmaid on this. The popsicles are a separate entity to the cold. There is evidence that this is true particularly in ADwD. Tormund and Val both speak of a cold so cold it hurts to breath. Varamyr's last breath is so cold it hurts. Mel in her vision says that a cold so cold that it is not to be believed comes over a group of people (Hardhome possibly) that it puts the fires out and kills them all. In none of these are the popsies mentioned.

2)There not one witness to this. The only thing every instance of the dead turning into wights has in common is the cold.

3) I would say rather they are products of the magic instead of the weilders of it.

4) On this we agree. The wights are definitely boob trapped as you say. The ones outside the CotF's cave are sentinals that rise when there is movement outside the mouth of the cave. Othor and Jaffer are playing possum until the cold rises and then they activate again. It was cold on the Fist when they attacked there too.

The controversial part of this is that if you take the 'cold' as the cause of the making of wights and the 'cold' that accompanies the wights when they are directed, is that the 'cold' would then become the Cold and be a sentient being/thing. It has power and a purpose and it enacts plans and moves it's forces against it's enemies.

What that plan is, is not clear to me yet but so far it seems to be recruitment (conscription is closer the mark actually) and eliminating other fighters. There is also the possibility that they are trying to bring down the NW in order to get past the wall.

[addicted to snow]

From a Thermodynamic Standpoint "Cold" is rather difficult to define. Cold is the absence or or a decreased amount of enthalpy or heat within a given substance (solid, liquid, or gas - air). Absolute Zero (-270 degrees C) is the total absence of enthalpy / heat.

It is not unusual for extreme cold temperatures to kill humans & cold temperatures have often been described as being painful. There is nothing unusual regarding the cold temperatures in ASOIAF. Cold Temperatures are not responsible for bringing the Weights.

There have been a thousand winters since the last long night, yet not a single Weight has ever been reported, despite lots of 'cold'.

The Others & the Weights were introduced in the same prologue chapter, so I think it is likely that they are associated with one another...

EDITED because I left out the word 'not' as in "Cold Temperatures are not responsible for bringing the Weights"...

[LynnS]

This does, as I suggested earlier, point to their being something like the hired guns from Texas, brought in to run off the settlers rather than an invading army in their own right. Which in turn fuels the heretical belief that they are not the ultimate enemy but the tools of somebody we've already encountered in the story; and there it comes down to the children who have both the motive and the magic and who so far have been conspicuously silent on the subject.

Why would the children run off the settlers at this point it time? I completely buy that they are not telling everything they know. Unless they are making that information available to Brynden Rivers and now Bran. Leaf says they have been waiting for Bran for 200 years; so they have some knowledge of events about to take place. It sounds to me like Bran is the "promised one". as far as the children are concerned.

To me, the "blue heart" in the Tower of the Unyding represents the opposing force to the "red heart" of R'hllor. As the undying attempt to feed off her and consume her; the blue heart becomes stronger and all magics used by magic practitoners increase. I associate the blue heart with the drowned dragon lords and the blood of old Valyria; Voltantis behind it's Black Walls rather than a cold so intense it burns. The ghost tortoise passing messages between windowless houses suggests a link to Volantis in the imagery of the old man of the river in the Sorrows that Tyrion describes. I think fire and ice are connected (one cannot exist without the other) and winter is coming because there was an increase in fire magic when Dany brought dragons back into the world.

Leaf says the children and the old races will not survive; that the direwolves will outlive them. As Aemon says too few dragons are more dangerous than too many (politically); I suspect that the variability in winters and summers may reflect the power of Voltanis waxing and waning and the number of their dragons. There may be a third force in addition to the Old Man of Fire, the Old Man of the Sea. That of the Old Man of the Earth. The children sing the song of Earth and called up the Doom to smash the power of old Valyria because they were threatened by fire's antithesis ice and by an invading species, men.

We are given the imagery of fire and ice but Moqorro adds the third element when he sees the hurricane on the horizon and tells Tyrion that the Gods will not be mocked. Euron says that he is the first storm and the last storm and his purpose is to destroy all the gods including the old gods of the north. Storm's end was twice thrown down by a storm, the Grey King was defeated by a storm. Dragonstone was lashed by a storm when Dany was born.

The Doom curtailed the power of fire and as a consequence, the power of ice, removing a threat to the children and the Weirwoods The Targaryens fled before the Doom and possibly had something to do with it's demise. The first faceless man may be connected to the Targ family tree and given Dany's self actuating purpose to free the slaves; she seems the likely candidate for Azor Ahai reborn but "unfinished".

Dany may be the bride of both ice and fire, mother to dragons and indirectly, it's icy counterpart. (Val could by the proxy bride of ice.) Bran sees Ned sitting in front of a weirwood and thinks the roots of the tree surround and cradle him like a mother... mother of the others (the other races the children describe to Bran).

As Aemon tells Sam, too many dragons are less dangerous than too few. To me, the Doom was about reducing the danger specifically to the children and the menace that both ice and fire present.

As to what's going to happen, I simply don't know...

Mother of Dragons...bride of fire.... slayer of lies... daughter of death... .

bride of Fire: Dany slayer of lies: Tyrion daughter of death: Arya

bride of Ice: Val slayer of lies: Sam daughter of death: Shireen

The "chequered hazard" (Feast For Crows prologue) and other sleeper agents:

Patchface, Shireen, Wex...

edit: correction, chequered hazard is mentioned in FfC prologue).

An aside:

http://www.george-ma...golden_key.html

[#Fire and Blood]

Busy night...

OK, rather than dissect every post:

The big problem with the Others/White Walkers business is their numbers or rather their lack of numbers. As readers all we've actually seen are the six who scragged Ser Waymar, and of course Ser Puddles, who may or may not have been one of that six. Otherwise at the present time we've got the white walkers glimpsed on the shore near Eastwatch, number unknown but sounding like not very many, white shadows in the woods, numbers unknown but again unlikely to be more than one or two. And then of course we have some turning up at Craster's place. More than one obviously but no suggestion of a large party.

Historically its the same. Old Nan speaks of them riding dead horses and leading armies of the slain, and afterwords hunting young maidens through the woods as Ramsay Snow/Bolton does - whether in conscious imitation or not.

This does, as I suggested earlier, point to their being something like the hired guns from Texas, brought in to run off the settlers rather than an invading army in their own right. Which in turn fuels the heretical belief that they are not the ultimate enemy but the tools of somebody we've already encountered in the story; and there it comes down to the children who have both the motive and the magic and who so far have been conspicuously silent on the subject.

At this point in time I see no reason not to believe that Craster's boys can raise the dead, just as Thoros and some others of the Red Lot can, but they are probably the users rather than the originators of the magic, and I still think that booby-trapping Ser Waymar's body to react to Will's heat signature shows they have a sense of humour.

As to the shades. That, I think was simply Ygritte expressing her horror of grave robbing, they were looking for the horn as a way to get through the Wall because they were already under pressure from the blue-eyed lot.

I don't think the Others are simply hired guns. That seems too easy of an explanation. I think there are two possible other theories that would make more sense.

1. The Children have used magic that has had devastating effects on the world (the hammer instance for example) yet it still did not win them the war. As has been discussed many times in this forum, magic has a big price; if in fact they are using magic to fuel the WW and the Wights, there is still a big price they must pay. To me, the COTF population is so small and Leaf seems to state that they feel they are consigned to their fate. What then is the point of using this type of Ice magic against man? What good will it do the COTF. If you can come up with a good theory on what good it does them, I believe your argument could be more valid.

2. I would also argue the COTF may in fact be working with the Others but in a the enemy of my enemy is my freind kind of way. If this is the case theoretically, once the common enemy is defeated, they will have to deal with the original issues that made them enemies in the first place (how to split up land between the WW and the COTF, etc).

I definitly agree that the Wight's are booby trapped. That seems very clear to me.

The big questions I have is do you consider the WW's (ice pops) to be a true race or are they just a magical incarnation of life?

[#Fire and Blood]

@ Golden Vale :

"Fire and blood" made a statement that Royce rose "immediately after" i was indicating that was not so.

"" Wil l said. "I got close as I dared. There's eight of them, men and women both. No children I could see. They put up a lean-to against the rock. The snow's pret ty well covered it now, but I could still make it out. No fire burning, but th e firepit was still plain as day. No one moving. I watched a long time. No liv ing man ever lay so still." "Did you see any blood?" "Well, no," Will admitted. "Did you see any weapons?" "Some swords, a few bows. One man had an axe. Heavy-looking, double-bladed, a cruel piece of iron. It was on the ground beside him, right by his hand." "Did you make note of the position of the bodies?" Will shrugged. "A couple are sitting up against the rock. Most of them on the ground. Fallen, like." "Or sleeping," Royce suggested. "Fallen," Will insisted. "There's one woman up an ironwood, half-hid in the br anches. A far-eyes." He smiled thinly. "I took care she never saw me. When I g ot closer, I saw that she wasn't moving neither." Despite himself, he shivered

.

Othor's and Jaffar's body rose when it got colder and night fell.So it stand's to reason that like Popsiees they there is an affinity to cold and Darkness.

I never said Popsiees came before AGOT,which is kinda true but again in response to Fire and Blood stating that he believes they came out of the graves the Wildlings were digging.I was merely saying they were seen before the graves were open.

We have reasonable doubt that's it,i can make a better case that it is "the cold" that is raising the dead and that it is a separate entity than the Popsiees.

Your statement about WWs killing people to do this is inaccurate,Othor and Jaffar had axe wounds i believe.Many of the dead Widlings had arrows through their hearts or some had been torn probably by animals.WWs were not responsible for those deaths.

You are right, it does not matter if the Ice Pops kill them or not. Either way, the dead seem to rise no matter what. As to how, is a mystery. It still seems to me it is caused by the Others because they are in close proximity.

Even if the Children are controlling the dead to rise, what would then be the point of the Ice Pops? Are you suggesting that they are not a race of beings, but simply something made of magic to through humans off as to who is doing to destruction?

Also, if the COTF are controlling the Ice Pops it still seems very possible they are controlling them (or working with them) because the Ice Pops can raise such an army.

What would you say the point of the Ice Pops are if not to raise the dead?

[Black Crow]

I don't think the Others are simply hired guns. That seems too easy of an explanation. I think there are two possible other theories that would make more sense.

1. The Children have used magic that has had devastating effects on the world (the hammer instance for example) yet it still did not win them the war. As has been discussed many times in this forum, magic has a big price; if in fact they are using magic to fuel the WW and the Wights, there is still a big price they must pay. To me, the COTF population is so small and Leaf seems to state that they feel they are consigned to their fate. What then is the point of using this type of Ice magic against man? What good will it do the COTF. If you can come up with a good theory on what good it does them, I believe your argument could be more valid.

2. I would also argue the COTF may in fact be working with the Others but in a the enemy of my enemy is my freind kind of way. If this is the case theoretically, once the common enemy is defeated, they will have to deal with the original issues that made them enemies in the first place (how to split up land between the WW and the COTF, etc).

I definitly agree that the Wight's are booby trapped. That seems very clear to me.

The big questions I have is do you consider the WW's (ice pops) to be a true race or are they just a magical incarnation of life?

On the question of the white walkers being the hired guns from Texas, I would offer comparisons with Gregor Clegane's crew and the Brave Companions. Both are mad, bad and dangerous to know, but ultimately they are or were the tools of Tywin Lannister. Given that there are so few of the white walkers and their consequent reliance on wights, I have difficulty is seeing them as an independent force, but rather as the tools of someone or something else, and as I say the children have both the magic and the motive.

As to whether they are a true "race", I think the answer has to be no. GRRM has described them as a "different kind of life" and questioned whether they have a culture of their own, both of which are consistent with what Gilly's mother and that other woman say about their being Craster's sons, ie; humans transformed by Ice magic, just as Mel and Moqorro are former humans transformed by Fire magic.

And you really believe Leaf?

[Black Crow]

We are given the imagery of fire and ice but Moqorro adds the third element when he sees the hurricane on the horizon and tells Tyrion that the Gods will not be mocked. Euron says that he is the first storm and the last storm and his purpose is to destroy all the gods including the old gods of the north. Storm's end was twice thrown down by a storm, the Grey King was defeated by a storm. Dragonstone was lashed by a storm when Dany was born.

What's also interesting here of course (aside from the late Rafe Kenning having the Storm God as his sigil) is that Damphair claims that the ravens belong to the Storm God and that the Morrigan, the Crow Goddess with three human aspects; maiden, mother and crone is also a storm goddess.

[Sleeve of Wizard]

What's the deal with Sam's line in ADWDs when he says that Gilly is holding Mance's Son & Craster's Grandson (while in route to Old Town)?

Do we know if this is a typo or not? or is Sam Drunk? I remember him getting drunk at some point, drinking rum on the boat...

This would make Mance a son of Craster no?

[alienarea]

Busy night...

OK, rather than dissect every post:

The big problem with the Others/White Walkers business is their numbers or rather their lack of numbers. As readers all we've actually seen are the six who scragged Ser Waymar, and of course Ser Puddles, who may or may not have been one of that six. Otherwise at the present time we've got the white walkers glimpsed on the shore near Eastwatch, number unknown but sounding like not very many, white shadows in the woods, numbers unknown but again unlikely to be more than one or two. And then of course we have some turning up at Craster's place. More than one obviously but no suggestion of a large party.

Historically its the same. Old Nan speaks of them riding dead horses and leading armies of the slain, and afterwords hunting young maidens through the woods as Ramsay Snow/Bolton does - whether in conscious imitation or not.

This does, as I suggested earlier, point to their being something like the hired guns from Texas, brought in to run off the settlers rather than an invading army in their own right. Which in turn fuels the heretical belief that they are not the ultimate enemy but the tools of somebody we've already encountered in the story; and there it comes down to the children who have both the motive and the magic and who so far have been conspicuously silent on the subject.

At this point in time I see no reason not to believe that Craster's boys can raise the dead, just as Thoros and some others of the Red Lot can, but they are probably the users rather than the originators of the magic, and I still think that booby-trapping Ser Waymar's body to react to Will's heat signature shows they have a sense of humour.

As to the shades. That, I think was simply Ygritte expressing her horror of grave robbing, they were looking for the horn as a way to get through the Wall because they were already under pressure from the blue-eyed lot.

We have looked at Mance opening the graves a few times but I can't remember us speculating those were the graves of the Night King and his followers.

We know the wildlings burn their dead, so those graves shouldn't be thr graves of Joramun and his followers, shouldn't they?

And who would not be afraid to be raised by the Others? Obviously the Night King, who was married to a female Other, if we believe in Old Nan's tales.

I assume Mance learned that something important is in the grave of the Stark. But he doesn't know which one, Stark the Night King or Stark of Winterfell. So he looks up the graves of Stark the Night King first, probably because he can access them more easily. Then he goes looking in the crypts of Winterfell.

Randomly related: maybe the Thenns survived in their secluded valley because they are related to the Night King?

[LynnS]

What's also interesting here of course (aside from the late Rafe Kenning having the Storm God as his sigil) is that Damphair claims that the ravens belong to the Storm God and that the Morrigan, the Crow Goddess with three human aspects; maiden, mother and crone is also a storm goddess.

Alright then...I'm going to have to get up to date on the Morrigan theory. :laugh: I'll be reading for a while. What I found interesting in the speech was the narrator's voice. Was this really Euron? What was interesting to me was Damphair's comment that there were "no hinges here and no doors", Urri is gone and Euron is back. I can't help thinking of round doors with no hinges and shade of the evening.

Who says Benjen won't make a sudden appearance back at the Wall, now that Jon is incapacitated and everyone has run off to war with Ramsey Bolton...

[Black Crow]

I took Damphair's comment to mean that everything was out in the open.

Mel describes the Wall as a hinge, hence the heretical view that the Wall is actually the boundary between the realms of men and the otherlands beyond, while a door is necessary to pass between - at the pleasure of whoever controls the it.

[Black Crow]

We have looked at Mance opening the graves a few times but I can't remember us speculating those were the graves of the Night King and his followers.

We know the wildlings burn their dead, so those graves shouldn't be thr graves of Joramun and his followers, shouldn't they?

And who would not be afraid to be raised by the Others? Obviously the Night King, who was married to a female Other, if we believe in Old Nan's tales.

I assume Mance learned that something important is in the grave of the Stark. But he doesn't know which one, Stark the Night King or Stark of Winterfell. So he looks up the graves of Stark the Night King first, probably because he can access them more easily. Then he goes looking in the crypts of Winterfell.

Randomly related: maybe the Thenns survived in their secluded valley because they are related to the Night King?

Its possible, I suppose, but it depends how old those graves really are. That the wildlings burn their dead is presumed to be a holdover from the Long Night, since there's no indication of it being a recent practice they've suddenly taken up. The problem, from Mance's point of view, might be that the attribution to Joruman might be legendary.

We know of the barrows below the Wall, these might simply be others lost beyond the Wall, with popular (but unfounded) legend attaching Joruman's name to them, just as in our world barrows have been variously assigned as the graves of Grimes (who he?), gog and magog, giants and just about any legendary hero you are to think of. Thus Mance was unsuccessful because the barrows in question were much older than Joruman.

This isn't to say he won't be successful in turning his attention to Winterfell, but as he doesn't need the horn to bring the Wall down and pass his people through to safety, it does once again raise a questionmark as to his real motives.