Heresy 71

[Black Crow]

Jon may be Rhaegar's son but considering he got the entire Stark look from Lyanna not even an ounce of Targ look, may be a sign that him being Lyanna's son will play a more important part to the story.

i.e. He may be on the ice side of things rather than fire.

Ah well, this is at the very heart of heresy.

We are given all the clues as to R+L=J and the popular reaction is that one day a mouldy parchment will be found or Howland Reed will come out of the swamp like the Ancient Mariner to tell the tale that Jon Snow is really Jon Targaryen and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne etc etc.

In reality some of us reckon that what is actually important is that he is the son of Lyanna Stark, and the father who brought him up is Eddard Stark. Rhaegar is irrelevant for Jon is of the North - and Ice not Fire.

[Lord Ravenstark]

the whole rebellion happened because rhaegar kidnapped lyanna. robert hates the targs. robert thinks rhaegar raped lyanna. if ned told robert the truth, he would definitely have wanted to kill jon. (and ned's dead, which means there's only reed to tell him the truth) we're talking about the same king who was pleased with tywin when he killed babies aegon and rhaenys. (ps - if lyanna died in that tower, why would rhaegar name it the tower of joy? ;)

I think he's been waiting for Bran specifically....

Keep in mind that he must have been a green seer for the better part of 50-60 years.... though it doesn't seem to matter, since once you become a green seer you can see throughout time.

Stalking children... well, BR should have a criminal record. Words are wind, I know, but mybe he stalked every potential greenseer.

Ah well, this is at the very heart of heresy.

We are given all the clues as to R+L=J and the popular reaction is that one day a mouldy parchment will be found or Howland Reed will come out of the swamp like the Ancient Mariner to tell the tale that Jon Snow is really Jon Targaryen and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne etc etc.

In reality some of us reckon that what is actually important is that he is the son of Lyanna Stark, and the father who brought him up is Eddard Stark. Rhaegar is irrelevant for Jon is of the North - and Ice not Fire.

1996-'97. We were given all clues as to Eddard Stark would endure and win the Great Westerosi War... until Arya 1:5 (some still believe he is alive).

Actually, the only thing that makes my heart doubtful about R + L = J is that I was never persuaded by the clues, so it won't be a surprise if Martin shatter my skepticism into pieces.

[Yield.]

Some of us make a distinction between WWs and Others. Some of us think "Others" refers to many kinds of non-humans. Some of us (like me) think "Others" refers only to the spooky ice critters, and that WW is just an alternative name for them. We sometimes call them Popsicles to avoid the confusion. "Craster's sons" is a term for Popsicles used by those who believe that Craster's male babies become Popsicles.

LOL That is pretty much what had me going in circles. Thanks for the Popsicles, I really was not sure about that one.

snip

and Welcome to the forums, to you and all the other under 100 posters.

Thank you for the welcome. It is the Heresey threads (I've read the last 6 or 7) that made sign up for these forums.

[avernite]

I'm not inclined to read too much into this business of marrying the dragons. Its really just pretty straightforward. All through Westerosi history the North has been different and remained independent of the Andal kingdoms. Only when the Targaryens/dragons came, did Torrhen Stark bend the knee and the North became part of the kingdom of Westeros.

What's a much more pertinent question is why, when this only happened 300 years ago, is Moat Caillin such a ruin and has been such a ruin for so long. Its wooden keep is said to have rotted away 1,000 years ago. We need not necessarily take this literally but its very clear that the castle was abandoned and ruined long before Aegon tooled up. Therefore somewhere along the line there has to be some kind of peace treaty with the Andals, and a treaty or Pact if you will so solidly binding as to render the castle redundant. Or rather more than redundant, because peaceful relations of not its still the only gateway to the North and that it is abandoned and ruined suggests that this was a requirement of the Pact.

That in turn is surely significant and begs a further questionmark about all those southerners, knights as well as criminals, on the Wall. Somewhere quite far back in history there was not only a peace treaty but one which involved a right of passage for all those knights whose sigils adorned the Shield Hall.

Well, I think it's as follows:

Moat Cailin is in a horrible position to garrison and maintain, but it's still a bulwark against the south if garrisoned while due to its rot being useless against the North (or mostly); ergo, if a war breaks out between the North and anyone but the Ironborn, it's still useful for the North but useless for the southerners.

Plus, the Neck is a long narrow road. If the king in the North has proper scouts, he can still at latest catch the enemy just as they emerge from a strung-out march through the swamp. Not as formidable as a fort where two grannies with a broom can stop them, but a Northern army of similar size could still slaughter the attackers.

In fact, I think the Neck is the real reason, not Moat Cailin, that the North was held. Only by sea or through the Neck can it be attacked - and the Ironborn seem to have been sort of first men, so the western shores were probably safe from outright invasion during the first Andal attacks, and the Starks must have had seapower in the east to fight the Arryns over the Sisters. And the Neck, as I wrote above, is long, narrow, and defensible.

Plus, of course, the North being poor, vast, and empty - better to squabble over the Riverlands with the Ironborn than over the North with the Starks.

[addicted to snow]

I'm not inclined to read too much into this business of marrying the dragons. Its really just pretty straightforward. All through Westerosi history the North has been different and remained independent of the Andal kingdoms. Only when the Targaryens/dragons came, did Torrhen Stark bend the knee and the North became part of the kingdom of Westeros.

What's a much more pertinent question is why, when this only happened 300 years ago, is Moat Caillin such a ruin and has been such a ruin for so long. Its wooden keep is said to have rotted away 1,000 years ago. We need not necessarily take this literally but its very clear that the castle was abandoned and ruined long before Aegon tooled up. Therefore somewhere along the line there has to be some kind of peace treaty with the Andals, and a treaty or Pact if you will so solidly binding as to render the castle redundant. Or rather more than redundant, because peaceful relations of not its still the only gateway to the North and that it is abandoned and ruined suggests that this was a requirement of the Pact.

That in turn is surely significant and begs a further questionmark about all those southerners, knights as well as criminals, on the Wall. Somewhere quite far back in history there was not only a peace treaty but one which involved a right of passage for all those knights whose sigils adorned the Shield Hall.

In the words of JonNonRegis, there was probably not a good source of building material to maintain Moat Caillin's walls... It was, after built in a swamp which suggest a poor foundation - evident by Moat Caillin's current condition with a leaning tower. Swamps are also notorious for being devoid of consolidated rocks / stone, which was the building material...

Poor foundation seems to be a perfectly good explanation for Moat Caillin's ruined condition & because this explanation is supported by the leaning tower, I see no reason to search for a deeper meaning.

[addicted to snow]

In reality some of us reckon that what is actually important is that he is the son of Lyanna Stark, and the father who brought him up is Eddard Stark. Rhaegar is irrelevant for Jon is of the North - and Ice not Fire.

If we assume that R+L=J is true, then from a writing standpoint, your statement above does not really make sense...

Why would GRRM go to the trouble of of putting the 'R' into the equation if nothing will ever come of it? GRRM could have made any male in Westeros Jon's Father, yet he chose 'R' for a reason & went to considerable effort to hide this fact from the average reader - or at least make the reader puzzle it out. It makes no sense for 'R' to be 'irrelevant'.

If we further assume that GRRM has not changed the story along the way, then it would be reasonable to assume that Jon's character development will somehow be altered if / when he comes by the R+L=J knowledge. His character may realize a positive or negative impact from this knowledge, or the Jon may have an inherent physical benefit from the 'R-genes', which gives him an edge should he ever face dragons (for example).

One thing is for certain, GRRM did not work R+L=J into the story because it is 'irrelevant'.

Please note: I am not suggesting that Jon will ever be a king, ride a dragon, or carry a Targ banner, I am just saying 'Why, implant the R+L=J intrigue into the story if nothing will ever come of it?'

[Lord Ravenstark]

If we assume that R+L=J is true, then from a writing standpoint, your statement above does not really make sense...

Why would GRRM go to the trouble of of putting the 'R' into the equation if nothing will ever come of it? GRRM could have made any male in Westeros Jon's Father, yet he chose 'R' for a reason & went to considerable effort to hide this fact from the average reader - or at least make the reader puzzle it out. It makes no sense for 'R' to be 'irrelevant'.

If we further assume that GRRM has not changed the story along the way, then it would be reasonable to assume that Jon's character development will somehow be altered if / when he comes by the R+L=J knowledge. His character may realize a positive or negative impact from this knowledge, or the Jon may have an inherent physical benefit from the 'R-genes', which gives him an edge should he ever face dragons (for example).

One thing is for certain, GRRM did not work R+L=J into the story because it is 'irrelevant'.

Please note: I am not suggesting that Jon will ever be a king, ride a dragon, or carry a Targ banner, I am just saying 'Why, implant the R+L=J intrigue into the story if nothing will ever come of it?'

Easter Egg. I do believe we will never know who is Jon's mother, cause it won't change anything. Unless, of course, Jon's mother be Ashara, and turn out that Lemore is Ashara. Be it true, what Aegon would do?

[LynnS]

One thing is for certain, GRRM did not work R+L=J into the story because it is 'irrelevant'.

Please note: I am not suggesting that Jon will ever be a king, ride a dragon, or carry a Targ banner, I am just saying 'Why, implant the R+L=J intrigue into the story if nothing will ever come of it?'

Is there anything that indicates that Rheagar actually "loved" Lyanna? Or is this how all the witnesses interpreted his actions? Rheagar seems to have seen his fate in a dream and donned plate and sword, "It seems I must become a warrior". Did he see his own death? Was he be fomenting the war in order to bring about the conditions for the prophecy? I'm not sure that dragon blood is irrelevant. But I am on with the idea that Stark blood is the most important factor. I'm struck by how many of the great houses appear to have married into the Stark family tree on the male side. Eyron? Theon? Why did they all carry the "Stark" Name?

[Yield.]

Just to expand a little on what Urrax said.

The terms Others and white walkers/white shadows are more or less used interchangeably in the books, but may not be quite as straightforward as it appears. There are some suspicions that the term Others may actually be a little broader and encompassing all the non-human races; as in "the rest", thus far however this is unproven. Where it does get controversial is that some of us think there is ample evidence of the white walkers being around for a long time before the story starts and that the Others connection is being missed until a rise in the tide of magic allows them to raise the dead again. Although there are some dissenters there doesn't seem much doubt that the white walkers are responsible for the wights and it might therefore be true to say that white walkers are just white walkers (or Craster's boys) but white walkers and wights are the Others.

As to their only recently reaquiring the power to raise the dead, its worth noting that on the other side Thoros was mightily astonished to discover that what he believed was just a symbolic ritual really did have the power to raise the dead - just as Master Benero promised

I think the biggest confussion for me is that since I first read AGoT back in 1998/9 (and reread with every book that has come out since) the description of the being in the prologue, how it shifted shape, made no sound and spoke in inhuman voices, coupled with the capitalization of the word other pretty much set the "okay that is an Other" in my head. Later when Mormont says the fisherfolk had seen white walkers along the shore and yet there was no mass exidus going on the east coast as opposed to the west coast where wildlings are running scared I decided they were 2 different things. The first dangerous (clearly) the second just ominous.

I always suspected they went hand in glove but that they were not interchangable. Kind of like the scout is not the army, and like all armies not all are the fighting unit, although all must have some degree of martial capability. And this impression has been made stronger, for me anyway, with each successive book. So much so that I have come to think of the WWs as priests equivalent to or in opposition to the Red priests. However this is admittedly an impression I haven't challenged in a long while.

[LynnS]

That's the one, thanks for saving me from looking. So very very much like Bran's experience, which is why I think there's good reason to support the idea that Bran wasn't the only candidate for the job, but rather the first one to pass the flying test.

The similarities are interesting. I'm not sure when a prospect passes the test though. The moment of jeopardy seems to occur at the ring of ice spears surrounding the heart of winter. Either you fly or you "die" as a prospective greenseer. The latent talent must be above average to get that far.

I'm not sure that this is a vision of the future either. Rather more like Bran having the veil lifted to see the bones of the dreamers as Theon has the veil lifted in the godswood when he witnesses the wedding. Or Euron enticing Victarion to partake of Shade of the Evening to open his mind and lift the veil from his eyes.

It seems to me that the 3EC can read the memories of the trees and see the world in real time. I'm not sure that Jojen has been given future vision of his death. He could as easily been told what sacrifice he has to make and given a choice; or been given a vision of the past.

The only indication that someone can see the future is in the tower of the undying and in Benerro's visions presumably. Isn't it possible to know about a hurricane by some other means? The glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night Walker in Qarth. Xaro doesn't say that one candle is burning. There are four candles in the Citadel and one is burning. It stands to reason that there are other candles burning.

[King of Winters]

Is there anything that indicates that Rheagar actually "loved" Lyanna? Or is this how all the witnesses interpreted his actions? Rheagar seems to have seen his fate in a dream and donned plate and sword, "It seems I must become a warrior". Did he see his own death? Was he be fomenting the war in order to bring about the conditions for the prophecy? I'm not sure that dragon blood is irrelevant. But I am on with the idea that Stark blood is the most important factor. I'm struck by how many of the great houses appear to have married into the Stark family tree on the male side. Eyron? Theon? Why did they all carry the "Stark" Name?

Ser Barristan said that one day Rhaegar read something and one day he went to training and said "it seems I must become a warrior". So he didn't dream anything but he read something in the Library at the Red Keep probably about TPTWP.

I think Rhaegar did love Lyanna and used polygamy to wed her and Elia at the same time, as past Targs have done before. And don't forgot, his last word was "Lyanna".

[mediterraneo]

If we assume that R+L=J is true, then from a writing standpoint, your statement above does not really make sense...

Why would GRRM go to the trouble of of putting the 'R' into the equation if nothing will ever come of it? GRRM could have made any male in Westeros Jon's Father, yet he chose 'R' for a reason & went to considerable effort to hide this fact from the average reader - or at least make the reader puzzle it out. It makes no sense for 'R' to be 'irrelevant'.

If we further assume that GRRM has not changed the story along the way, then it would be reasonable to assume that Jon's character development will somehow be altered if / when he comes by the R+L=J knowledge. His character may realize a positive or negative impact from this knowledge, or the Jon may have an inherent physical benefit from the 'R-genes', which gives him an edge should he ever face dragons (for example).

One thing is for certain, GRRM did not work R+L=J into the story because it is 'irrelevant'.

Please note: I am not suggesting that Jon will ever be a king, ride a dragon, or carry a Targ banner, I am just saying 'Why, implant the R+L=J intrigue into the story if nothing will ever come of it?'

Hello, not to counter what you say, but Rhaegar's paternity has technically already had a relevant effect on the story: the need for Eddard to hide Jon, the reminder to Eddard, every day of his life, that his friend was a children butcher (at least a butcher of Targaryen blooded children), and that he had to protect the boy above his friendship, isolating himself phisically and psicologically from the capital. It was the trauma to Eddard that pushed him to the need of protecting children against reason, that ultimately led him to death.

This is relevant enough to the story for me, but I don't want to asay that there will not be anything more.

[alienarea]

Ah well, this is at the very heart of heresy.

We are given all the clues as to R+L=J and the popular reaction is that one day a mouldy parchment will be found or Howland Reed will come out of the swamp like the Ancient Mariner to tell the tale that Jon Snow is really Jon Targaryen and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne etc etc.

In reality some of us reckon that what is actually important is that he is the son of Lyanna Stark, and the father who brought him up is Eddard Stark. Rhaegar is irrelevant for Jon is of the North - and Ice not Fire.

With every word/chapter/book written by GRRM and not confirming R+L=J it becomes less likely to be true, IMHO.

[LynnS]

Ser Barristan said that one day Rhaegar read something and one day he went to training and said "it seems I must become a warrior". So he didn't dream anything but he read something in the Library at the Red Keep probably about TPTWP.

I think Rhaegar did love Lyanna and used polygamy to wed her and Elia at the same time, as past Targs have done before. And don't forgot, his last word was "Lyanna".

That's right! He loves Lyanna but didn't see the future. Thanks.

Edit: This reminds me of Dany assuming that Quaithe is from Asshai. I've been looking for the passage where Quaithe actually says she's from Asshai. All she says is that she is "of the shadow" in perfect Westerosi. There is "by the shadow" of Asshai; and "beneath the shadow" of the Mother of Mountains at Vaes Dothrak and "beneath the shadow of the Mountain of the Moon in the Vale of Arryn.

Quaithe seems to confirm that assumption implying that she has to learn some truth about Asshai not that she should go there.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Stalking children... well, BR should have a criminal record. Words are wind, I know, but mybe he stalked every potential greenseer.

1996-'97. We were given all clues as to Eddard Stark would endure and win the Great Westerosi War... until Arya 1:5 (some still believe he is alive).

Actually, the only thing that makes my heart doubtful about R + L = J is that I was never persuaded by the clues, so it won't be a surprise if Martin shatter my skepticism into pieces.

What were the clues Eddard would win the Great Westerosi War? I think my lack of experience with Fantasy is showing. Or my bad memory :P

Edit: I'm not your typical fan. I still think it would be EPICLY EPIC EPICNESS if Ned Stark was still alive. I don't care how little sense it makes.

[Lord Ravenstark]

What were the clues Eddard would win the Great Westerosi War? I think my lack of experience with Fantasy is showing. Or my bad memory :P

Edit: I'm not your typical fan. I still think it would be EPICLY EPIC EPICNESS if Ned Stark was still alive. I don't care how little sense it makes.

Back there, without reading a proper review, one can read agot as a mature fantasy book. So one could think: Eddard Stark was shown as a major character, then dramatic hero to then, as common fantasy, the character make his insurgency (Eddard driving out the Lannister from the Iron Throne) and ascension. ASOIAF, as we know, is not crafted by the standard fantasy recipe at all.

Just one more thing: The reaction to Arya 1:5 is similar to Jon 5:13... both wanted to hold the idea of "he is alive, he must be alive" the difference is basically they hadn't themes later introduced like Red Priests and skinchangers' second life.

EDIT: clarify

[dios_achilleus]

Been busy the last couple days, but having caught up on reading this thread, I agree that we simply don't have enough details about magical warding to make any further inquiry into the Night's King story.

On the subject of warding, one notes (can't remember who, sorry) that Jon and Ghost were disconnected by the Wall while the wights in GoT were still reanimated. Meanwhile, the wights in the ice cells in DwD are not reanimating (so they're not really wights, I guess?). One could argue that the ice cells are cold enough to keep the bodies solid, but by doing so, one implicitly contends that the ice cells are colder than the snowbanks outside the CotF cave, and, moreover, that this slight difference in temperature (if one exists) is sufficient to allow the bodies to reanimate at the cave but not inside the wall. So, accepting that the temperature is not sufficient to prevent reanimation, there must be another explanation (assuming that GRRM hasn't erred in how his magic system works).

In GoT and DwD, when Jon and Ghost are traveling through the tunnel in the Wall, is there any indication that he cannot sense the direwolf similar to how he cannot sense him in SoS on opposite sides? If so, I'll grant that the magical wards in the Wall are responsible for the loss of warging connection and for preventing corpse reanimation. Here is the passage from GoT. I don't have my copy of DwD handy at the moment, unfortunately.

They set out late that afternoon. The Wall had no gates as such, neither here at Castle Black nor anywhere along its three hundred miles. They led their horses down a narrow tunnel cut through the ice, cold dark walls pressing in around them as the passage twisted and turned. Three times their way was blocked by iron bars, and they had to stop while Bowen Marsh drew out his keys and unlocked the massive chains that secured them. Jon could sense the vast weight pressing down on him as he waited behind the Lord Steward. The air was colder than a tomb, and more still. He felt a strange relief when they reemerged into the afternoon light on the north side of the Wall.

-Game of Thrones, Jon VI

So, I don't see Jon noticing a loss of connection to Ghost in this passage. I don't recall one in DwD (again, sorry, I don't have my copy handy).

To sum up:

We have three data points regarding the magic the Wall affects (or doesn't):

1) Jon and Ghost, lost connection (prevention)

2) GoT corpses, reanimate (doesn't prevent)

3) DwD corpses, no reanimation (prevention, supposedly)

No apparent explanation is available to account for all three instances.

Edit: btw, can anyone point me to a discussion of Beric Dondarrion's extra lives granted by R'hllor equaling seven, which is the number of gods the Andals brought with them?

[King Tyrion VIII]

Back there, without reading a proper review, one can read agot as a mature fantasy book. So one could think: Eddard Stark was shown as a major character, then dramatic hero to then, as common fantasy, a character make his insurgency (Eddard driving out the Lannister from the Iron Throne) and ascension. ASOIAF, as we know, is not crafted by the standard fantasy recipe at all.

Just one more thing: The reaction to Arya 1:5 is similar to Jon 5:13... both wanted to hold the idea of "he is alive, he must be alive" the difference is basically they hadn't themes later introduced like Red Priests and skinchangers' second life.

Thanks. ASOIAF was the first fantasy series i read so I didn't have anything GRRM could trick me on in that sense. But i was still blindsided left and right.

[GoldenVale]

What's a much more pertinent question is why, when this only happened 300 years ago, is Moat Caillin such a ruin and has been such a ruin for so long. Its wooden keep is said to have rotted away 1,000 years ago. We need not necessarily take this literally but its very clear that the castle was abandoned and ruined long before Aegon tooled up. Therefore somewhere along the line there has to be some kind of peace treaty with the Andals, and a treaty or Pact if you will so solidly binding as to render the castle redundant. Or rather more than redundant, because peaceful relations of not its still the only gateway to the North and that it is abandoned and ruined suggests that this was a requirement of the Pact.

That in turn is surely significant and begs a further questionmark about all those southerners, knights as well as criminals, on the Wall. Somewhere quite far back in history there was not only a peace treaty but one which involved a right of passage for all those knights whose sigils adorned the Shield Hall.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.It could well be part of some peace treaty, but it sounds like you think there's more to it than just that.

[Joe Pine]

Moat Cailin when compared to the passes into Dorne is a bit strange. The Dornish effectively have major lords protecting the boneway and Princes' pass.

Moat Cailin should be the home of a lordly house - a warden of the southern frontier? Why hasn't that been the case, even with the crannogmen loyal to the Starks, a lordly or knightly house there surely would make sense?