Heresy 71

[Black Crow]

What hints are you referring to?

Well the crow's eye bit is interesting enough in itself, but although I'll need to go back and check for chapter and verse he does say, almost wistfully, that once he dreamed he could fly, but alas...

I'll come back when I've got the quote.

[Black Crow]

I saw a thread about this on the Gen. Forum, since it has parts that I think we should at least look over, theories we have discussed and since its posted on one our old friends web page I will post it.

Be warned it is very long. Very very long.

http://branvras.free...Clos/Queen.html

An interesting one, raising some pertinent questions. As ever I think that Bran Vras reads far too much into these things, but I do reckon he's spot on the money in asserting that the Jon son of Rhaegar thing is a complete red herring. What's important is not that his father is Rhaegar Targaryen, but that his mother is Lyanna Stark and he belongs to the North and Ice.

[LynnS]

I saw a thread about this on the Gen. Forum, since it has parts that I think we should at least look over, theories we have discussed and since its posted on one our old friends web page I will post it.

Be warned it is very long. Very very long.

http://branvras.free...Clos/Queen.html

Fascinating. That Lyanna and Dominic were concurrent is a problem for me as well. I like this interpretation for the Stark matrilineal line.

[Joe Pine]

An interesting one, raising some pertinent questions. As ever I think that Bran Vras reads far too much into these things, but I do reckon he's spot on the money in asserting that the Jon son of Rhaegar thing is a complete red herring. What's important is not that his father is Rhaegar Targaryen, but that his mother is Lyanna Stark and he belongs to the North and Ice.

There's something about being Rhaeger's son that's important though. Think I've seen a thread or two about that.

[Black Crow]

There's something about being Rhaeger's son that's important though. Think I've seen a thread or two about that.

Very likely, but that's why in heresy we tend to look on it as a deliberate red herring :commie: :commie: :commie:

[Nights Watchman Cometh]

I saw a thread about this on the Gen. Forum, since it has parts that I think we should at least look over, theories we have discussed and since its posted on one our old friends web page I will post it.

Be warned it is very long. Very very long.

http://branvras.free...Clos/Queen.html

I wonder if we'll ever find out what Rhaegar "found in his scrolls"? Maybe he found out why Stark blood is so special.

[Joe Pine]

Very likely, but that's why in heresy we tend to look on it as a deliberate red herring :commie: :commie: :commie:

Being serious, there must be something interesting about him.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Being serious, there must be something interesting about him.

Jon may be Rhaegar's son but considering he got the entire Stark look from Lyanna not even an ounce of Targ look, may be a sign that him being Lyanna's son will play a more important part to the story.

i.e. He may be on the ice side of things rather than fire.

[GoldenVale]

I wonder if we'll ever find out what Rhaegar "found in his scrolls"? Maybe he found out why Stark blood is so special.

It's commonly thought that he somehow found a record of the PTWP prophecy and summarized that the prophecy was about him.

I know he's supposed to b e all awesome and nice and stuff but I've always thought how highly you gotta think of yourself to figure you're the savior in a prophecy.

Being serious, there must be something interesting about him.

We really don't know all that much about Rhaagar. For all the praise we hear, most of it is superficial (and biased). "Rhaegar was a handsome fella." "Rhaear sure was just, and kind, and woulda been a great king." "Rhaegar was a great singer."

The only substantial info we get about him are from Jaime's recollections, Dany's vision of him in the House of the Undying, and Selmy's recollections (some of them).

So if there's anything there there's not much to go on.

It's likely that whatever is special about Jon comes from his Stark side. And his story so far has given us that impression for the longest while.

[addicted to snow]

Jon may be Rhaegar's son but considering he got the entire Stark look from Lyanna not even an ounce of Targ look, may be a sign that him being Lyanna's son will play a more important part to the story.

i.e. He may be on the ice side of things rather than fire.

The Author had to give him the Stark look or else Robert would have killed him...

So I would not over analyze Jon's lack of Targ features...

Assuming that L+L=J, which seems probable, though I am not sold on it yet & will not be until confirmed by the books or GRRM. I think there is a twist there and most R+L=J Followers have not factored in room for a twist.

[LynnS]

Well the crow's eye bit is interesting enough in itself, but although I'll need to go back and check for chapter and verse he does say, almost wistfully, that once he dreamed he could fly, but alas...

I'll come back when I've got the quote.

A Feast for Crows - The Reaver - Euron to Victarion:

"When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't ... or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"...

"Euron turned to face him. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us.. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower."

"No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

[Lord Ravenstark]

The Author had to give him the Stark look or else Robert would have killed him...

Very unlikely. Eddard would never let it happens. I don't believe in that theory (Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents) but Jon would be a bastard anyway.

A Feast for Crows - The Reaver - Euron to Victarion:

"When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't ... or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"...

"Euron turned to face him. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us.. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower."

"No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

Maybe BR tried to get some other boys before Bran. Just happened that Bran reached him. (There are some ironborn skinchangers,IIRC. Farwynds if the legends - when legends are false? - are true.)

[addicted to snow]

Very unlikely. Eddard would never let it happens. I don't believe in that theory (Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents) but Jon would be a bastard anyway.

Wrong... Robert hated Targs & wanted to kill them all...

[LynnS]

Maybe BR tried to get some other boys before Bran. Just happened that Bran reached him. (There are some ironborn skinchangers,IIRC. Farwynds if the legends - when legends are false? - are true.)

Or Euron is being used for a different purpose. (I can't help thinking of Mad Eye Moody, Dark Wizard Catcher :drunk: ) I'd like to know what's under that eye patch.

[dotheknifefight]

Very unlikely. Eddard would never let it happens. I don't believe in that theory (Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents) but Jon would be a bastard anyway.

the whole rebellion happened because rhaegar kidnapped lyanna. robert hates the targs. robert thinks rhaegar raped lyanna. if ned told robert the truth, he would definitely have wanted to kill jon. (and ned's dead, which means there's only reed to tell him the truth) we're talking about the same king who was pleased with tywin when he killed babies aegon and rhaenys. (ps - if lyanna died in that tower, why would rhaegar name it the tower of joy? ;)

Maybe BR tried to get some other boys before Bran. Just happened that Bran reached him. (There are some ironborn skinchangers,IIRC. Farwynds if the legends - when legends are false? - are true.)

I think he's been waiting for Bran specifically....

"I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, though the hour is late.

Keep in mind that he must have been a green seer for the better part of 50-60 years.... though it doesn't seem to matter, since once you become a green seer you can see throughout time.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I wonder if we'll ever find out what Rhaegar "found in his scrolls"? Maybe he found out why Stark blood is so special.

Well I have a really out there theory. Heresy < Crack Pot < ? Shattered Vase? theory.

I don't think it was a scroll or prophecy that Rhaegar found, but a book of Lineages. I think he found out that one of Eggs sister married a Stark, and was Edwyle's mother. As the only female w/ Targaryen blood he could mate with, he went to tHH to meet and win Lyanna's heart.

Yes I know, have been told that its too crazy, that it doesn't make sense, and I am just looking for a hidden Targaryen, except for the fact that this theory got started when I first read the books, long before I got here, or learned of many of the theories.

I miss R+L=J because I was looking for why/how Robert had "a better claim". Better is a comparative of well, and can only be use when comparing one thing to another. That is to say there has to be at least one lesser claim. If Eggs daughter (Roberts grandmother) was the reason for Roberts better claim, then Eggs sister(Ned's great-grandmother) could in fact be a second, and lesser claim for Ned. The only other person that I could see, would have been Jon Arryns, whatever Aunt married into Targaryens' and so the blood goes the wrong way.

[wolfmaid7]

I always found that statement to be strange by Robert to Ned..Also the Great John exultation of " it was the Dragons we married and their all dead ". It could be he was talking about Torheen but the choice of words is weird.

[King of Winters]

I always found that statement to be strange by Robert to Ned..Also the Great John exultation of " it was the Dragons we married and their all dead ". It could be he was talking about Torheen but the choice of words is weird.

I take that as the Starks married Targs a long time ago. Torrhen and Aegon could have agreed that one of Torrhen's daughters marries Aegon's eldest son (Aenys) in order for the North to stay in the Seven Kingdoms.

The Author had to give him the Stark look or else Robert would have killed him...

So I would not over analyze Jon's lack of Targ features...

If Jon had been born with any Targ features (silvery hair, purple eyes) Ned would have said he was his bastard son with Ashara Dayne (who had purple eyes).

[Black Crow]

I'm not inclined to read too much into this business of marrying the dragons. Its really just pretty straightforward. All through Westerosi history the North has been different and remained independent of the Andal kingdoms. Only when the Targaryens/dragons came, did Torrhen Stark bend the knee and the North became part of the kingdom of Westeros.

What's a much more pertinent question is why, when this only happened 300 years ago, is Moat Caillin such a ruin and has been such a ruin for so long. Its wooden keep is said to have rotted away 1,000 years ago. We need not necessarily take this literally but its very clear that the castle was abandoned and ruined long before Aegon tooled up. Therefore somewhere along the line there has to be some kind of peace treaty with the Andals, and a treaty or Pact if you will so solidly binding as to render the castle redundant. Or rather more than redundant, because peaceful relations of not its still the only gateway to the North and that it is abandoned and ruined suggests that this was a requirement of the Pact.

That in turn is surely significant and begs a further questionmark about all those southerners, knights as well as criminals, on the Wall. Somewhere quite far back in history there was not only a peace treaty but one which involved a right of passage for all those knights whose sigils adorned the Shield Hall.

[Black Crow]

A Feast for Crows - The Reaver - Euron to Victarion:

"When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't ... or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"...

"Euron turned to face him. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us.. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower."

"No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

That's the one, thanks for saving me from looking. So very very much like Bran's experience, which is why I think there's good reason to support the idea that Bran wasn't the only candidate for the job, but rather the first one to pass the flying test.