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Cersei Lannister the Sympathetic Villain


Longspear Ryk

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I have to say - completely without any sarcasm - that these comments amused me far more than they should have. So Ned Stark was wrong to offer mercy to Cersei Lannister because he himself didn't get any material benefit from it. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what the Buddha was going on about when he was advocating compassion for all living things - as long as you get something out of it! :rofl:

Ah, well. Carry on. :drunk:

Ned wasn't wrong to offer compassion to Cersei. Cersei was wrong to refuse that compassion and enable the murder of both Ned and his household, not to mention Robert. It's not about benefiting materially from your compassion. It's about evaluating whether your compassion will actually lead to any objective good, period. By precedent, no good has ever come from anyone showing Cersei compassion.

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I agree with many of you that the Huff Post article is full of crap. However, I do feel that we can discern a lot of Cersei's true character from her actions. From what we know, Cersei was always one to take risks (e.g. fortune telling with the old hag or stroking her grandfather's pet lions). She has always been adventurous and impetuous, but very superstitious and one to believe anything that someone (whom she believed her better) would tell her. I think she has redeeming values; it all just depends on if GRRM feels the same. ;)

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I saw that the other day and called bullshit also. They were either just watching the show or defending her because she's a woman, or at least that's the only way I think they could have formed that opinion.

There is one thing sympathetic I find about Cersei and that is the walk of shame, but only because I don't believe sex is a valid crime to be punished. If found guilty for her real crimes she can feed the crows, but the walk was sexist bullshit.

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I agree, understanding a character's motivations is very different from being sympathetic

As you warg around Westeros and share the hearts and minds of GRRM's characters you can't help but color them with a little of yourself and take a little of them with you when you leave.

Cersei was the hardest for me to relate too and I found myself wishing for a shower after reading her chapters.

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she still put him in that situation

she still put him in that situation

But she does not bear the responsibility for his murder.

Ned's warning to her was both extremely compassionate, and very foolish. You can't wound a lionness, and then leave her in a position to fight back. His real choice was either to arrest her, or else to say nothing.

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I don't blame children for s***. Joffrey didn't really know the full situation regardless.

I hold Cersei fully accountable for Ned's murder.

She was the adult in power at that point. King or no, Joffrey was still a 12 year old child, Cersei was the regent and was where the power was supposed to lie.

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I don't blame children for s***. Joffrey didn't really know the full situation regardless.

I hold Cersei fully accountable for Ned's murder.

She was the adult in power at that point. King or no, Joffrey was still a 12 year old child, Cersei was the regent and was where the power was supposed to lie.

Apparently not, though, because they listened to Joffery's orders and lopped off Ned's head. Cersei does bear responsibility for raising Joffery to be the sort of sadistic shit who does something like this and considers it to be merciful.

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I don't think fleeing was the best option, because Robert would make sure she'd never rest one second. while she was still alive. Resources end eventually, and how much would Tywin be able to support them, if he would, really? I don't think fleeing was the best option, rather than staying in power. Besides, the evidence Ned had is easily contested, because there aren't paternity tests in Westeros. It makes no sense for her to run, especially considering she had the power to stay and fight. By running, she'd sign up her eventual death. I agree with you, but my point was never that she loves her children, or she did what she did out of love, but out for self-preservation, and as she sees them as extensions of herself, her children. And to protect herself, It does seem to make more sense to me to stay than to escape. And to play the devil's advocate once more, Cersei is Queen not by lie and deceit. She married the King when Jon Arryn made the match of her to Robert. The position in itself of Queen of Westeros is actually righteous. Other than that, I agree with you. She's truly a despicable person.

No way. I agree that Robert would have sent knives after her, but being on the run would have been safer. Not safe, but safer. I mean, consider how razor-close Cersei was to utter destruction over and over as she ineptly played her game in KL:

Her hair-brained murder plot fails because Robert doesn't stumble across a deadly boar while unknowingly drinking strong-wine, or simply doesn't get gored: she and the kids die.

Renly calls for more men instead of fleeing the capital like a bitch: she and the kids die.

LF double crosses her instead of Ned: she and the kids die.

Stannis and Renly form an alliance, instead of Stannis murdering Renly with witchcraft, storm KL: she and the kids die.

Stannis's army isn't delayed by a storm: she and the kids die.

LF fails to win the immediate and unconditional support of the Tyrells and Tarly's: she and the kids die.

...this list really goes on and on. The Wot5K is really a story of how the Lannisters benefitted so strongly from blind luck and the extremely clever manipulations of one man early (LF) and the treachary of a few men later, that they've almost won despite losing every field battle to their primary foe. Cersei and her kids should have and by all odds would have died violent deaths for her insistence on the throne.

Running away isn't too hard when you're rich. Illyrio, who's not half as rich as the Lannisters, kept Dany and Viserys safe for years as Robert searched for them. Even Tyrion, without a dime and without sustained protection from Iillyrio, survives on the run under charges of regicide. Jorah Mormont survives in exile. So does Jon Connington. Do you really think that staying in KL, maintaining the lie that two hands had already discovered, that was obvious to anyone who noticed that the first three blond Baratheons had been born in hundreds of years, in the face of strong contesters vying for the throne, at least one of whom obviously knows your secret? Do you really think that Cersei's pride, sense of entitlement and superiority had nothing to do with her refusal to accept Ned's offer of mercy and run with her chidlren? No no no. The best bet was a huge sack of gold, a night ship for Lys, and the best swords you can hire. The only thing that saved her in KL at the moment of truth after Robert's death is LF betrayal of Ned!! Which she didn't even know about!! Then a series of extremely fortunate events.

To your 2nd point: of course, she is legally queen, until she fucks her brother and bares his offspring. That's not legal, and only deceit maintains her position.

Finally- let's stop confusing Ned's mercy and compassion as naivité or stupidity. He obviously didn't think it was the most strategic, sure move. He's not playing the same game as Tywin and Cersei and LF and Renly, he's not after the throne, or power, or position. And he had no sense of how insane and evil Cersei and LF were. I don't think he ever imagined that she'd try to maintain the deceit after he confronted her...partially, I think, because it was so unlikely that she would succeed, and that her flight would have been the far better bet for protecting her children. But in the end, Ned sacrifice his own security to save children. That's something Cersei nor Tywin nor Robert is willing to do. That's what sets Ned apart in this series. If you confuse that for naivité or confusion, you've misread, I'm afraid.

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No way. I agree that Robert would have sent knives after her, but being on the run would have been safer. Not safe, but safer. I mean, consider how razor-close Cersei was to utter destruction over and over as she ineptly played her game in KL:

Her hair-brained murder plot fails because Robert doesn't stumble across a deadly boar while unknowingly drinking strong-wine, or simply doesn't get gored: she and the kids die.

Renly calls for more men instead of fleeing the capital like a bitch: she and the kids die.

LF double crosses her instead of Ned: she and the kids die.

Stannis and Renly form an alliance, instead of Stannis murdering Renly with witchcraft, storm KL: she and the kids die.

Stannis's army isn't delayed by a storm: she and the kids die.

LF fails to win the immediate and unconditional support of the Tyrells and Tarly's: she and the kids die.

...this list really goes on and on. The Wot5K is really a story of how the Lannisters benefitted so strongly from blind luck and the extremely clever manipulations of one man early (LF) and the treachary of a few men later, that they've almost won despite losing every field battle to their primary foe. Cersei and her kids should have and by all odds would have died violent deaths for her insistence on the throne.

Running away isn't too hard when you're rich. Illyrio, who's not half as rich as the Lannisters, kept Dany and Viserys safe for years as Robert searched for them. Even Tyrion, without a dime and without sustained protection from Iillyrio, survives on the run under charges of regicide. Jorah Mormont survives in exile. So does Jon Connington. Do you really think that staying in KL, maintaining the lie that two hands had already discovered, that was obvious to anyone who noticed that the first three blond Baratheons had been born in hundreds of years, in the face of strong contesters vying for the throne, at least one of whom obviously knows your secret? Do you really think that Cersei's pride, sense of entitlement and superiority had nothing to do with her refusal to accept Ned's offer of mercy and run with her chidlren? No no no. The best bet was a huge sack of gold, a night ship for Lys, and the best swords you can hire. The only thing that saved her in KL at the moment of truth after Robert's death is LF betrayal of Ned!! Which she didn't even know about!! Then a series of extremely fortunate events.

To your 2nd point: of course, she is legally queen, until she fucks her brother and bares his offspring. That's not legal, and only deceit maintains her position.

Finally- let's stop confusing Ned's mercy and compassion as naivité or stupidity. He obviously didn't think it was the most strategic, sure move. He's not playing the same game as Tywin and Cersei and LF and Renly, he's not after the throne, or power, or position. And he had no sense of how insane and evil Cersei and LF were. I don't think he ever imagined that she'd try to maintain the deceit after he confronted her...partially, I think, because it was so unlikely that she would succeed, and that her flight would have been the far better bet for protecting her children. But in the end, Ned sacrifice his own security to save children. That's something Cersei nor Tywin nor Robert is willing to do. That's what sets Ned apart in this series. If you confuse that for naivité or confusion, you've misread, I'm afraid.

Well, when you put it that way... Seriously, though, while admittedly you're right that the Lannisters coming out ahead in the Wo5K is due to LF's machinations, blind luck, and nefarious, treacherous allies on the Stark's side, I don't think Cersei sees it this way. As paranoid as she is, she actually seems to assume that she'll win in the grand scheme of things. Her fear is so focused on Tyrion killing her that I don't think she realizes that the Lannister hopes of victory don't look too good. In order words, Cersei lacks the awareness of how dismal her chances actually are, and somehow she manages to prevail, at least for awhile.

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Robert didn't kill Vicerys or Dany, so there is no certainty that he would have expended that much energy to kill Cersei, he may have been ultimately so relieved she was out of his life, once his initial rage subsided he wouldn't try any harder to kill her than the Targaryen children.

In terms of compassion, okay, well I am not the Buddah. I feel pity for Cersei because she is the architect of her own doom on all fronts, it was her brand of motherhood that ensured Joff would be a monster, her choice to set herself against Robert in all things rather than ever try for some livable compromise, even her own choices have caused the prophecy to still be "live"...all she had to do was bear one of Robert's children and the chain would have been broken, but her hate and pride prevented even that bit of rationality. All of her own choices as Queen that brought the realm to further ruin because she is incapable of seeing anyone as her equal and so sees anything but subservience as a threat to be destroyed.

Now, I happen to think whether he intended to or not, GRRM wrote Cersei as a textbook sociopath who has no true emotions and sees everyone but herself as an object. She is the proverbial "bad seed" the little girl who will kill the kind old neighbor for her necklace, or, maybe push her best friend down the well to keep her quiet.

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Finally- let's stop confusing Ned's mercy and compassion as naivité or stupidity. He obviously didn't think it was the most strategic, sure move. He's not playing the same game as Tywin and Cersei and LF and Renly, he's not after the throne, or power, or position. And he had no sense of how insane and evil Cersei and LF were. I don't think he ever imagined that she'd try to maintain the deceit after he confronted her...partially, I think, because it was so unlikely that she would succeed, and that her flight would have been the far better bet for protecting her children. But in the end, Ned sacrifice his own security to save children. That's something Cersei nor Tywin nor Robert is willing to do. That's what sets Ned apart in this series. If you confuse that for naivité or confusion, you've misread, I'm afraid.

What you just described there is a perfect example of naivité. "He was not playing the same game"... well that's because he was naive, there is only one game that is being played and either you understand the rules or you're not. He made a huge mistake just like his son Robb Stark made a huge mistake by marrying Jeyne Westerling. As Littlefinger once put: Starks, quick temper, slow minds... Imagine if you witnessed just for example a mafia hit on someone. You wouldn't go the person and say: 'Hey man I just saw what you did and tomorrow I will call the cops on you, but because I am merciful, you have the night to escape.' How long would you think you'll live? This is plain naivité.

Ned Stark had the option to end this whole conflict before it escalated if he accepted Renly's offer. Obviously then we wouldn't have six more books to read and this lovely forum to carry out discussions like this.

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Are we reading the same novels? Cersei's problems are mostly self created. Having sex with your brother isn't the correct way to deal with a neglectful husband. I don't know what the correct way is but I know that isn't it. And using that incest as an excuse to kill your husband, his best friend, and others, is equally wrong. Sure she FEELS she got a raw deal but so what. I feel I shouldn't have to work for a living but I don't use that as an excuse to rob banks.

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To be fair to Cersei, she didn't want Ned to die.

And so the most I'm willing to say about it is that she used the slack Ned gave her to save her children with to win the game of thrones. Which remains a heck of a thing. It's like using a dispensation for your children in a high-risk endeavor to salvage your own fortunes. Easily justified to yourself after the fact, colossally selfish decision regardless.

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No way. I agree that Robert would have sent knives after her, but being on the run would have been safer. Not safe, but safer. I mean, consider how razor-close Cersei was to utter destruction over and over as she ineptly played her game in KL:

Her hair-brained murder plot fails because Robert doesn't stumble across a deadly boar while unknowingly drinking strong-wine, or simply doesn't get gored: she and the kids die.

Renly calls for more men instead of fleeing the capital like a bitch: she and the kids die.

LF double crosses her instead of Ned: she and the kids die.

Stannis and Renly form an alliance, instead of Stannis murdering Renly with witchcraft, storm KL: she and the kids die.

Stannis's army isn't delayed by a storm: she and the kids die.

LF fails to win the immediate and unconditional support of the Tyrells and Tarly's: she and the kids die.

...this list really goes on and on. The Wot5K is really a story of how the Lannisters benefitted so strongly from blind luck and the extremely clever manipulations of one man early (LF) and the treachary of a few men later, that they've almost won despite losing every field battle to their primary foe. Cersei and her kids should have and by all odds would have died violent deaths for her insistence on the throne.

I don't think It would have been safer, but a different challenge. We can't know for certain how much would Robert actually chase her. He seems vindictive considering what he did to the Targaryen children, so I'm not sure he'd be such a dear to let Cersei escape. Escaping was always an option, but It's also extremely dangerous. Remember the number of dwarves that died when Cersei put a price on Tyrion's head? Besides, as she was in KL, she had Tywin and the Lannister Army. What would she have on the run? Cersei had power, and for her delusioned mind, It was better to hold to that in order to preserve herself. To be honest, I never understood why Cersei didn't deny Ned's claims. It's not like there are paternity tests. She could have even compared to Ned's situation with Catelyn; Robb doesn't look a bit like Ned.

Running away isn't too hard when you're rich. Illyrio, who's not half as rich as the Lannisters, kept Dany and Viserys safe for years as Robert searched for them. Even Tyrion, without a dime and without sustained protection from Iillyrio, survives on the run under charges of regicide. Jorah Mormont survives in exile. So does Jon Connington. Do you really think that staying in KL, maintaining the lie that two hands had already discovered, that was obvious to anyone who noticed that the first three blond Baratheons had been born in hundreds of years, in the face of strong contesters vying for the throne, at least one of whom obviously knows your secret? Do you really think that Cersei's pride, sense of entitlement and superiority had nothing to do with her refusal to accept Ned's offer of mercy and run with her chidlren? No no no. The best bet was a huge sack of gold, a night ship for Lys, and the best swords you can hire. The only thing that saved her in KL at the moment of truth after Robert's death is LF betrayal of Ned!! Which she didn't even know about!! Then a series of extremely fortunate events.

LF was obviously easily bought. Cersei wasn't stupid enough to put her son on the throne if she didn't think she could actually face Ned in KL. The lie is actually possible genetically speaking, if you think about it. And Dany and Viserys weren't actually chased for Robert. Yet, they starved and suffered the worst humiliations. Viserys was broken beyond repair. And they were filthy rich. Yet, money does end someday. And we can't know what Tywin's actions would be. Would he help Cersei? Jorah wasn't actually chased, only exiled, as Jon Connington. Also, both were knights. What are the same odds for a disgraced Queen and three little children? Tyrion's survival is guaranteed by Varys, otherwise he'd have never actually lived. Or have you forgotten about what almost happened to Daenerys? And she was in Vaes Dothrak, in the heart of the Dothraki Sea.

To your 2nd point: of course, she is legally queen, until she fucks her brother and bares his offspring. That's not legal, and only deceit maintains her position.

She'd not stop being Queen for sleeping with her brother. The marriage is done. She's Queen, sleeping or not sleeping with Jaime. She can only lose the title by death or if the king casts her aside. And since Robert died, he can't truly do it anymore.

Finally- let's stop confusing Ned's mercy and compassion as naivité or stupidity. He obviously didn't think it was the most strategic, sure move. He's not playing the same game as Tywin and Cersei and LF and Renly, he's not after the throne, or power, or position. And he had no sense of how insane and evil Cersei and LF were. I don't think he ever imagined that she'd try to maintain the deceit after he confronted her...partially, I think, because it was so unlikely that she would succeed, and that her flight would have been the far better bet for protecting her children. But in the end, Ned sacrifice his own security to save children. That's something Cersei nor Tywin nor Robert is willing to do. That's what sets Ned apart in this series. If you confuse that for naivité or confusion, you've misread, I'm afraid.

I love Ned because he's honorable, and that's his best trait, but how can't you see how naive his actions were? Cersei at that pointt had gotten Lady killed, Mycah tortured and killed. And to be honest, you can't ignore the game because you don't want to play it. Can you ignore the circumstances because you don't want to be a part of it? Was Ned blind to the fact that each of these characters desired power? To Ned's head, might have been unlikely, but Robert's death was already set at that point. He should have considered the circumstances in which those people were in. The fact that he didn't was a case of extreme naiveté. Did not playing the game stopped Ned from being killed from it? I don't think I've misread a bit.

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You guys are forgetting that Ned's actions only led to his death because Robert was simultaneously murdered. If King Bob had come back alive from his hunt it would have been very different. To expect him to count on Cersei having already planned to kill Bob AND pulling it off AND refusing to leave Westeros AND having everyone else punt on him....that's a bit a much.

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No way. I agree that Robert would have sent knives after her, but being on the run would have been safer. Not safe, but safer. I mean, consider how razor-close Cersei was to utter destruction over and over as she ineptly played her game in KL:

Her hair-brained murder plot fails because Robert doesn't stumble across a deadly boar while unknowingly drinking strong-wine, or simply doesn't get gored: she and the kids die.

Renly calls for more men instead of fleeing the capital like a bitch: she and the kids die.

LF double crosses her instead of Ned: she and the kids die.

Stannis and Renly form an alliance, instead of Stannis murdering Renly with witchcraft, storm KL: she and the kids die.

Stannis's army isn't delayed by a storm: she and the kids die.

LF fails to win the immediate and unconditional support of the Tyrells and Tarly's: she and the kids die.

...this list really goes on and on. The Wot5K is really a story of how the Lannisters benefitted so strongly from blind luck and the extremely clever manipulations of one man early (LF) and the treachary of a few men later, that they've almost won despite losing every field battle to their primary foe. Cersei and her kids should have and by all odds would have died violent deaths for her insistence on the throne.

Running away isn't too hard when you're rich. Illyrio, who's not half as rich as the Lannisters, kept Dany and Viserys safe for years as Robert searched for them. Even Tyrion, without a dime and without sustained protection from Iillyrio, survives on the run under charges of regicide. Jorah Mormont survives in exile. So does Jon Connington. Do you really think that staying in KL, maintaining the lie that two hands had already discovered, that was obvious to anyone who noticed that the first three blond Baratheons had been born in hundreds of years, in the face of strong contesters vying for the throne, at least one of whom obviously knows your secret? Do you really think that Cersei's pride, sense of entitlement and superiority had nothing to do with her refusal to accept Ned's offer of mercy and run with her chidlren? No no no. The best bet was a huge sack of gold, a night ship for Lys, and the best swords you can hire. The only thing that saved her in KL at the moment of truth after Robert's death is LF betrayal of Ned!! Which she didn't even know about!! Then a series of extremely fortunate events.

That's a perfect example of how Cersei risks her children's lives for power. She's been playing russian roulette from the day Joffrey was born, and was lucky enough not to get the bullet, but insists on putting the gun to her head, despite fatal consequence for the people of around her, including her children, instead of cutting her loses and fleeing to safety. This is all due to her pride, lust for power, and insatiable greed.

I think she loves her children but not as individuals. She sees them as pawns to control and get more power from, proof that she can deceive the king of the 7K, the personifications of her ambitions and success. This is why she can't find fault in Joffrey-to admit that he has faults is to admit that a. she didn't raise him right or b. he inherited some terrible from her or Jaime. That's why she cares more about vengeance that her daughter's heath- she care more about what Myrcella represents that Myrcella herself. That's why she so harsh in "disciplining" Tommen- she has to have absolute control of his every thought.

Edit: Just needed to clarify something.

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LF was obviously easily bought. Cersei wasn't stupid enough to put her son on the throne if she didn't think she could actually face Ned in KL. The lie is actually possible genetically speaking, if you think about it. And Dany and Viserys weren't actually chased for Robert. Yet, they starved and suffered the worst humiliations. Viserys was broken beyond repair. And they were filthy rich. Yet, money does end someday. And we can't know what Tywin's actions would be. Would he help Cersei? Jorah wasn't actually chased, only exiled, as Jon Connington. Also, both were knights. What are the same odds for a disgraced Queen and three little children? Tyrion's survival is guaranteed by Varys, otherwise he'd have never actually lived. Or have you forgotten about what almost happened to Daenerys? And she was in Vaes Dothrak, in the heart of the Dothraki Sea.

That LF was obviously easily bought is why trusting him was an enormous risk. You're simultaneously saying that Ned was naive to trust LF and the Cersei was playing it safe with her children's lives by trusting LF. If LF had decided that it would suit his intentions for chaos and war to have the gold cloaks slaughter the Lannister guards, then Cersei and children are kept under guard while Ned acts as protector until Stannis arrives to claim the throne, and deal with Cersei.

The point you bring up about Tywin is valid. But what do you think Jaime would have done if Cersei came to him in the night and she wanted to run away with him and their children to be together forever? The point that Jorah and Jon Con weren't even chased supports my argument: criminal exiles don't seem to be aggressively pursued in their exile.

As for the Targ kids, he did chase Dany and try to have her killed, once she was pregnant with a true heir to the iron throne, the last heir to the family that had ruled for centuries, who's return was awaited by those who still called Robert usurper. Would Cersei pose that kind of threat? Ned shames Robert for ordering the assassination of a child that could throw the whole realm into rebellion...I'm not so sure he would've gone to such lengths to assassinate his cheating ex-wife and her abomination but inert children. Maybe. But reasonably flight would still seem like the more likely way to save your children.

I love Ned because he's honorable, and that's his best trait, but how can't you see how naive his actions were? Cersei at that pointt had gotten Lady killed, Mycah tortured and killed. And to be honest, you can't ignore the game because you don't want to play it. Can you ignore the circumstances because you don't want to be a part of it? Was Ned blind to the fact that each of these characters desired power? To Ned's head, might have been unlikely, but Robert's death was already set at that point. He should have considered the circumstances in which those people were in. The fact that he didn't was a case of extreme naiveté. Did not playing the game stopped Ned from being killed from it? I don't think I've misread a bit.

"Did you think my life is some precious thing to me?" I concede that Ned is not the most sly, insightful mastermind in Westeros. And yes, he dies. Just please keep in mind that death, his own personal well-being, the power and glory of his house, these things are, I suppose, what dictates the "winner" of the GoT, but that's not the scoring system Ned is using to gauge his success. He puts himself at enormous risk so that Robert will not kill Cersei's children. he knows this. He knows LF is a scummy little prick. He knows he could be stabbed in the back. He has Catelyn order the fortification of the North while he remains in KL to find the truth. To him, doing the right thing is more important than his life. Saving Sansa is more important than his honor or pride. I concede that he stumbles, that he fails to see, that he is naive. But warning Cersei was not a move that he thought was clever and strategic and would win him the GoT, it was an enormously self-imperilling act that only a man such as Ned would do: "The madness of Mercy." Only someone such as Cersei would repay him and his family as she did.

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There are certain aspects to Cersei that I am extremely sympathetic to: her indignation at the patriarchal system that oppresses her for no reason other than her gender (I am NOT saying that she deserves to be in power), Robert Baratheon definitely abused her, and she does love her children - not in a perfect healthy way because she doesn't know what that is, but she loves them as much as she is able.

I haven't read the entire HuffPo article, but that paragraph doesn't strike me as idiocy. It's only saying that there is room for some sympathy for her, and I agree with that.

Remember that moment when she had Margery's friends sexually assaulted? Then during the trial tried to get them 'examined' for virginity again? At least one of those girls had to be no more than 12 years old. Cersei is a monster. She delights in inflicting horrific punishments on anyone her paranoia makes her suspect of plotting against her, which is pretty much everyone.

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