Show us that Aegon VI is really Aegon

[lareine]

Wrong post

[Ser Dragonknight]

The only question I have for the fAegon crowd is; what's the point of putting a secret Blackfyre on the throne? So like five people can snicker from the shadows? I just don't see the point at all.

[Cheshire Rat]

Can someone explain the rational behind the idea that Varys was honest with Kevan because he was dying? Maybe I'm missing something but I just don't see it. What does it matter what you tell a dying man? I always thought he was talking for the benefit of others. Like maybe Qyburn as he took over as spymaster. Or some Littlefinger spies. I'm not trying to insult that idea, it's just that I really don't get the underlying logic.

I honestly didn't figure out Aegon as a Blackfyre until I read it here. I believe the theory now, but while I was reading I thought that Aegon was just some random kid with the Targ look that had been raised to be the ideal ruler. Now it seems like I was giving Varys way too much credit.

[grand old duke of stark]

Sigurður Ingi' wrote:

technically it would not matter if child was recognizable or not since that fact would mean that heir was still alive and other child had done it role as substitute,

and what would they have done, they would likelihood send search party to find the heir and if the heir was not found, they would likelihood say that heir had been killed instead of allowing the knowledge of the heir being alive.

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This smacks of what Theon did years later with Bran and Rickon. But if Tywin had found out about the switch, yes, he would have lied to Robert and would also have iimmediately and secretly combed the countryside and beyond for the heir. But I suspect we would know if such a thing had happened because Tywin tells the story to Tyrion. He has no reason to lie to his son in private, but as other posters mentioned, Varys has a good reason to lie to Kevan. Tywin also claims to have been surprised at the brutality of what Lorch and the Mountain did, but smashing the baby's skull is totally in keeping with what we know of Gregor. It isn't necessarily a ploy to make the baby unidentifiable so Robert woudln't know the real Aegon had been smuggled out.

FWIW, I believe Aegon is false, probably a Blackfyre.

[LordStoneheart]

I'm not sure which side it helps, but I believe GRRM's statements before are elusive to whether Aegon died. He clearly wants us to wonder if Gregor killed him... wait...

That's who punched the baby! It was Gregor! sort of... Gah, this has been eating at me for weeks...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The only question I have for the fAegon crowd is; what's the point of putting a secret Blackfyre on the throne? So like five people can snicker from the shadows? I just don't see the point at all.

It's a blood feud that's over 100 years old and there are factions in Essos that have been scheming to put a Blackfyre on the throne ever since. What point are you missing, exactly? ETA: Not to mention that the Blackfyre Rebellion plays a huge role in the prequel D&E stories. It seems highly likely that the Blackfyres have some relevance to the plot of the main series.

Yes, in fact he did. Which got me thinking - Jon is a suspicious man, and Varys is not one of the people he would wholeheartedly trust.I don't think he would have ever agreed to raise a child if he did not have proof that he is real. Raising the boy meant that he had to fake his own death and dedicate about 15 years of his life to him, I don't think Jon would have done that if he did not have a reason to believe in Aegon being the Aegon. I doubt that the boy having the Targaryen looks was enough for him...

Never underestimate the power of denial and unrequited love. Jon Connington has blinders on when it comes to his "silver prince," and Varys exploited that.

[RoamingRonin]

I don't trust Varys but I do have some faith in Jon Con. I think he would be able to recognize Rhaegar's trueborn son even if he had not seen the child grow up. It wouldn't be enough for the kid to just have Targaryen features. Jon sees Rhaegar in the boy similar to how so many people see the Stark blood in Jon Snow.

Can someone explain the rational behind the idea that Varys was honest with Kevan because he was dying? Maybe I'm missing something but I just don't see it. What does it matter what you tell a dying man? I always thought he was talking for the benefit of others. Like maybe Qyburn as he took over as spymaster. Or some Littlefinger spies. I'm not trying to insult that idea, it's just that I really don't get the underlying logic.

I honestly didn't figure out Aegon as a Blackfyre until I read it here. I believe the theory now, but while I was reading I thought that Aegon was just some random kid with the Targ look that had been raised to be the ideal ruler. Now it seems like I was giving Varys way too much credit.

No one knows why Varys decided to confess the truth. We've never seen Varys personally kill someone before so perhaps this is something he does when he has the chance. Dead men tell no tales and Varys is only human (?). Perhaps he can't help himself when he knows the person he's being honest with is about to die.

The only question I have for the fAegon crowd is; what's the point of putting a secret Blackfyre on the throne? So like five people can snicker from the shadows? I just don't see the point at all.

Yeah. This. A Blackfyre might not be a Targaryen but they are still considered dragons. Lesser men boast of having the blood of a dragon. A Blackfyre has more claim to the throne than a bastard Lannister, for example.

[King Tyrion VIII]

People change. Especially people who don't even remember the last Blackfyre and just want to get home. After all, what can they expect of life in Essos? They already are the best-reputed company. Basically, they've reached the full potential of what they could be there. It's natural to get homesick.

Oh, for the baby-switching conspiracy to work, Elia would almost definitely had to be in on it. A mother would do anything to keep her baby safe.

Because when a baby cries, you pick it up, no matter if it's yours or not. It's maternal instinct, pure and simple.

And I think she didn't know where Rhaenys was. IIRC, she panicked and ran out of the room.

Also, keep in mind that Elia probably thought she had more time to act. After all, Clegane and Lorch were sent in advance of the main Lannister force - so when Gregor entered the room, the battle would've been happening in the city, not in the keep itself.

Maybe we aren't supposed to know at all? I have a feeling that Aegon, true or false, will succeed in claiming the Iron Throne and then die shortly after that. I base this on two things:

1. GRRM hinted in an interview that the IT will have several occupants before the end of the story

2. Aegon is very likely to win his war.

Maybe he couldn't? Maybe Varys isn't as omniscient and clever as some people think he is?

Or maybe he just adapted an already existing plan to smuggle Aegon out of the capital, devised by Rhaegar in order to spirit away his heir from his crazy father?

Also, since playing Devil's advocate seems to be in vogue in this thread - what if Varys' speech wasn't meant for Kevan, but for us?

What makes you think Aegon is very likely to win his war?

[MasterJack]

What makes you think Aegon is very likely to win his war?

Dany is 5 book away from westeros and GRRM almost confirmed a dance of dragon 2.0

[Cheshire Rat]

No one knows why Varys decided to confess the truth. We've never seen Varys personally kill someone before so perhaps this is something he does when he has the chance. Dead men tell no tales and Varys is only human (?). Perhaps he can't help himself when he knows the person he's being honest with is about to die.

Thanks for answering me! That is a good point about this being the first time we see Varys kill someone. However, I'd find his confession more believable if he'd been alone with Kevan. It just sort of seemed like a performance to me as opposed to only a confession. And no matter who this kid turns out to be, he's called Aegon, so Varys technically wouldn't be lying if it's Aegon Blackfyre. It would just be a misleading statement, which he's been known to do in the past.

I think the more interesting question is how it's going to be proven in the books.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think the more interesting question is how it's going to be proven in the books.

I think short of someone confessing it Perry Mason-style, it won't be proved and maybe even can't be proved.

Targaryens aren't fireproof, so that "test" can't prove anything one way or the other. And if the kid is a Blackfyre and has the Valyrian blood necessary to tame a dragon (if that's even an actual thing), then a dragon "test" won't prove anything either. And Aegon genuinely thinks he's Aegon, so interrogation isn't going to work, exactly.

I think we've been given everything we need to determine that he's fake, but I'd be very surprised if it's ever explicitly spelled out, which is, if you think about it, what makes it so diabolical.

[MasterJack]

I think short of someone confessing it Perry Mason-style, it won't be proved and maybe even can't be proved.

Targaryens aren't fireproof, so that "test" can't prove anything one way or the other. And if the kid is a Blackfyre and has the Valyrian blood necessary to tame a dragon (if that's even an actual thing), then a dragon "test" won't prove anything either. And Aegon genuinely thinks he's Aegon, so interrogation isn't going to work, exactly.

I think we've been given everything we need to determine that he's fake, but I'd be very surprised if it's ever explicitly spelled out, which is, if you think about it, what makes it so diabolical.

Well, we need a pov of someone who actually knows the truth since he cant lie to us into his brain... and i cant think of any actual pov character.

[Nozlym]

becuase the KG werent at KL during the sack because they knew the baby aegon wasnt real and was already sent across the narrow sea

[King Tyrion VIII]

Dany is 5 book away from westeros and GRRM almost confirmed a dance of dragon 2.0

Dany can get to Westeros "quickly" with Victarion's fleet. Stannis is buying a rather large number of sellswords. I don't see Aegon winning as a sure thing. Wait, why does Dance 2.0 mean Aegon wins?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

becuase the KG werent at KL during the sack because they knew the baby aegon wasnt real and was already sent across the narrow sea

I'm not sure this makes any sense, time-wise. If you're referring to the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, I think everything (Trident, Sack, switch IF there was one) happened before they were even aware of what was going on.

[MasterJack]

Dany can get to Westeros "quickly" with Victarion's fleet. Stannis is buying a rather large number of sellswords. I don't see Aegon winning as a sure thing. Wait, why does Dance 2.0 mean Aegon wins?

he will not win the dance 2.0, but he will/need to stay alive for at the very least 3-4 months to fight her, and it is not with dying against euron or cercei or stannis he will acheive that :D

[Hug0r]

I'm not sure exactly who it was but did Barristan think about Tywin in one of the final ADWD chapters? He remembered how Tywin placed the bodies on the floor but Aegon's face was all mangled and you could barely tell who it was? And that something was wrong with its hair?

I know that Aegon was flung at a wall but maybe this was to cover up his identity?

[Nozlym]

I'm not sure this makes any sense, time-wise. If you're referring to the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, I think everything (Trident, Sack, switch IF there was one) happened before they were even aware of what was going on.

what? they were at kl when rhaegar left to go to the trident. before he left they could have made the move there and when rhae went to the trident, the 3 knew the plan and went to toj to protect the next in line

[King Tyrion VIII]

This thread has actually further convinced me Aegon is fake.

[The Mother of The Others]

My take is that he'll be the real deal based on behavior, not on pedigree. In other words, it doesn't matter whether he's Blackfyre or not, because he believes the lie so completely that he'll act the part of Aegon Targaryen better than any faker ever could. It won't be fake to him. Which is why he'll outperform the expectations of whatever secretive pro-Blackfyre cult exists...... and they'll lose control over their puppet because he can go over their heads and call directly upon the people for support. Hopefully. What I'm saying is that even after he receives the deflating news that he's a Fyre, he'll still choose to soldier on as the Aegon he's always been raised to be, and he'll disregard the secret pedigree as other people's BS that he has no loyalty to.

Also, the way the character was introduced..... seems real enough as a dark horse, as if the author has great things planned. (regardless of who this effer actually is, I'm expecting great things, because he has the spirit of an Aegon and that's all that matters from here on out--it no longer matters that he was tricked into having that spirit). One more thing: we've already been treated to one flash-in-the-pan (in the form of Quentyn), so to me that makes it less likely the author intends Aegon to burn out prematurely too. That'd be too blatant a repetition, especially when you add in the Red Viper.